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Is Allah the OT God?

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
the reason the Quran "contradicts" the Bible is because of man-made corruptions to the Biblical text. The Qur'an is believed to be the final revelation to mankind and corrects the falsehoods of the Bible.


...this is a common argument, but never in all of my years have I seen any evidence to suggest that this is true. In fact, the further down the archaeological road we progress, the more it seems that the Bible has NOT been tampered with, and that the versions we have in our hands are incredibly accurate, both in terms of the content, and in terms of the text itself. So the view that the Bible has been edited by man and corrupted by the Jews, by scribes and by Christians, is entirely unfounded.

You state that it is "believed" to be the final revelation, that it is "believed" to correct the falsehoods of the Bible. That's an accurate statement. It is believed by Muslims to be and to do those things. This is not, however, an accurate representation of the historically, archaeologically and scientifically established truth about the veracity of the Bible.

...couple that with the fact that I can prove to you the deity and destiny of Christ using just the first 5 chapters of Genesis (which were written and perpetuated by Jews, who do not believe in the deity and destiny of Jesus Christ), and you have a pretty flawed argument on the part of the muslim faith.




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Awen24

...couple that with the fact that I can prove to you the deity and destiny of Christ using just the first 5 chapters of Genesis (which were written and perpetuated by Jews, who do not believe in the deity and destiny of Jesus Christ), and you have a pretty flawed argument on the part of the muslim faith.


This is off-topic. If you want to discuss this, U2U me or start a new thread.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


Yes, Mohammad lied. Sorry but that is my belief and I'm entitled to it. Please don't insult my faith, which I wear a large orange traffic cone on my head to seperate myself from everyone else for.

You've not read my blog
I can't believe I've been debating with someone for so long who has not even looked at my blog.
'Volcanic activity' not 'volcano' although I sometimes just say 'volcano' because that is what most people will search for. The ancient Hebrews, I believe, did start out worshipping just one volcano....Mount Sinai....but volcanic activity soon became part of their religion. Yes, I'm sure there could have been a bigger volcano than their first volcano but religious people tend to big themselves and their deities up a bit don't they? Have you ever heard of a god that was not said to be the biggest, best, most awesome, most powerful, most relevant, most recent, etc?


edit on 5-7-2012 by TheFogHorn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
Or He is the same God and the reason the Quran "contradicts" the Bible is because of man-made corruptions to the Biblical text. The Qur'an is believed to be the final revelation to mankind and corrects the falsehoods of the Bible.
That's a plausible theory. Except, you know, there's contradictory evidence to suggest otherwise (actually, my first answer was the most accurate). I won't go through the Biblical side though, but instead, the Qur'an scripture's own words.

Surah 2:136 - (SI) Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Yet, you say you don't believe the Bible because it's corrupted? But it bears record of all of the prophets from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob, and the words of the Messiah Yeshua. If you are resistant to that, still, you might want to read this again -

Surah 6:34 - (SI) And certainly were messengers denied before you, but they were patient over [the effects of] denial, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them. And none can alter the words of Allah. And there has certainly come to you some information about the [previous] messengers.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus, they all "spoke the words of Allah", yet the Bible is supposedly corrupt? Why would Allah allow that?


Allah means The God. That means He is the one and only God. He is The God of Abaham, The God that all of the Bible figures worshipped. It is like saying "God is God." If you believe God is God then you would believe that Allah is God. It's the same statement. To deny Allah is to deny God.

Allah simply translates to God. I believe in God. Yet, I don't go telling people I believe in Allah. I believe in calling him by his true name, not his "titles", but the name he gave to Moses, one of the prophets even the Muslims revere, and that is the name Yahweh - I AM.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn

Yes, Mohammad lied.


He did? Can you prove that?


Sorry but that is my belief and I'm entitled to it.


Well, that you are.


Please don't insult my faith,


Your faith? So you worship a volcano god? I know you are just being condescending and sarcastic again, but how can you ask someone not to insult your faith when at every turn you insult someone else's. You call Muhammad a liar. That would be insulting my faith. Can't have it both ways.



You've not read my blog
I can't believe I've been debating with someone for so long who has not even looked at my blog.


Wow. It took you a long time to promote your blog. Usually you do so within a few comments.


'Volcanic activity' not 'volcano' although I sometimes just say 'volcano' because that is what most people will search for.


So now Allah is not a volcano, He's volcanic activity? You keep changing your argument.


The ancient Hebrews, I believe, did start out worshipping just one volcano....Mount Sinai....but volcanic activity soon became part of their religion.



Again, an unsubstantiated claim that you have no evidence of, just a semantics argument. If Yahweh is "volcanic activity" and Yahweh and Allah are the same then Allah would have to be volcanic activity also. So, we are back to square one again: Where in the Quran is there evidence to back this claim? You have none. The only thing you can do is proclaim Muhammad to be a liar (astaghfirullah), although no one has ever been able to refute any of his claims for 1400 years.

Eh well. Seems we are at an impasse. You have no evidence for your claims, and all you can do is call Muhammad a liar (and I guess Moses and Abraham and every other Prophet who has received revelations from God. That's one big conspiracy) and condescendingly insult me.

I'm done now. Go ahead and go back to your volcano worship. Let me know if you ever come up with some evidence.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by Lionhearte

Allah simply translates to God. I believe in God. Yet, I don't go telling people I believe in Allah. I believe in calling him by his true name, not his "titles", but the name he gave to Moses, one of the prophets even the Muslims revere, and that is the name Yahweh - I AM.


Allah is not His title; it's His name. Yahweh does not translate to "I Am." "I Am that which I Am" in Hebrew is Ahayah asher Ahayah.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by TheFogHorn

I didn't say that Mount Sinai was Mount Uhud. It's possible.


You claimed before that Yahweh was Mount Sinai. Now Allah is Mount Uhud. If Allah and Yahweh were the same then Sinai and Uhud would have to be the same.


I'm throwing things against a wall? Are you a wall?


Oh, for God's sake. It's a figure of speech. You've never heard that? Basically, it means you are throwing every possibility out there in hopes that one of them will stick.


I thought you were a truth seeker. That's what you said earlier. I'm just investigating an idea. Are you not investigating it too?


I am a truth seeker. That doesn't mean I have to swallow every shovelful of horse manure that is put in my face. I have investigated your claim and refuted it at every turn. You have provided no evidence whatsoever to back it up. At best, all you have is a semantics argument and a twisted interpretation of religious texts.


Please don't get all excited about Mount Sinai, Mount Uhud, etc. Quite frankly their locations are not important. If the Abrahamic religions were based on volcanic activity worship then who cares where the volcanoes were? I wouldn't rush off to see them. Would you?

Wall.....I was trying to be metaphorically humourous.

You've been claiming you've refuted my claim since we started this thread. I think in almost every comment you've said you've won, or words to that effect. You even said you were storming off in a huff in one comment but you didn't do. Are you next going to say, 'So I declare the debate over'? Oh, gosh, that sounds familiar. You already said something like that I think.

Anyway, do mountains love you? My thread....my questions....my right to direct this debate as I so wish.
edit on 5-7-2012 by TheFogHorn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by Awen24

...couple that with the fact that I can prove to you the deity and destiny of Christ using just the first 5 chapters of Genesis (which were written and perpetuated by Jews, who do not believe in the deity and destiny of Jesus Christ), and you have a pretty flawed argument on the part of the muslim faith.


This is off-topic. If you want to discuss this, U2U me or start a new thread.


Actually, it's not off-topic at all.
It's precisely ON-topic, because you've a) claimed that the Bible has been altered, with full knowledge, by both Jews and Christians, and b) claimed that the Qu'ran has corrected those errors.

This means that you're claiming that the Qu'ran has corrected the "error" of the deity of Christ. However, Jews also deny the deity of Christ (not to mention his priesthood, his status as King etc. etc.). However, if it can be proven that the deity and role of Christ exists in text prior to Christ's own birth in Bethlehem, you have a real issue on your hands... because not only would such a thing invalidate the Quranic concept that "God has no son", but it would also invalidate the theory that the Bible has been manipulated... because surely if it were to be manipulated, the Jews would REMOVE information relating to the deity of Christ - and yet these concepts were there, in text, hundreds of years before Christ was even born, and have not been removed since.


...besides which, it would be far more interesting than the ludicrous "God is a volcano" theory that has zero substantiation in history or text, either Christian, Jewish or Islamic.
edit on 5-7-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Deut 32:31

You see....so much boasting. My rock is bigger than your rock ner ner!

What is Moses talking about anyway? Rock? And why does 'Rock' have an initial capital letter? And why, if 'rock' was just metaphorical, would the enemies of the Hebrews admit their rock was 'not as' the Hebrews' rock?

One explanation........and I know you will consider it with an open mind being a truth seeker....is that 'Rock' is a volcanic mountain and has an initial caps because it is a proper noun....like 'Most High'. The enemy would have admitted their deity was not as the Hebrews' deity because size is not debatable.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 


Zero? That's a bit mean isn't it? Please Google 'Bible verse volcano' and report back to me.

By the way, what's 'brimstone'?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Deut 32:31

You see....so much boasting. My rock is bigger than your rock ner ner!

What is Moses talking about anyway? Rock? And why does 'Rock' have an initial capital letter? And why, if 'rock' was just metaphorical, would the enemies of the Hebrews admit their rock was 'not as' the Hebrews' rock?

One explanation........and I know you will consider it with an open mind being a truth seeker....is that 'Rock' is a volcanic mountain and has an initial caps because it is a proper noun....like 'Most High'. The enemy would have admitted their deity was not as the Hebrews' deity because size is not debatable.



Yeah, you're not winning any battles here. Deut 32:31 is talking about Israel's enemies. "Their rock (their god) is not as our God". God is often referred to as a Rock, a firm place among a constantly moving pantheon of gods in the ancient world. He is unchanging, unchangeable. Yes, this is a metaphor. It's capitalised by the translators so that you might understand that it's a reference to God.

This has nothing to do with size, nothing to do with volcanoes.

There are passages where God is likewise referred to as a "consuming fire", his voice is like "the voice of many waters", and so on. These, similarly, are metaphors.

You're trying too hard to read something in that was never there in the first place.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The metaphor of His Light is that of a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp inside a glass, the glass like a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, its oil all but giving off light even if no fire touches it. Light upon Light. Allah guides to His Light whoever He wills and Allah makes metaphors for mankind and Allah has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 24:35)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 


Please Google 'Bible verse volcano' and you will find an extremely long list of verses. Then please report back.

Please tell me what brimstone is.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
reply to post by Awen24
 


Zero? That's a bit mean isn't it? Please Google 'Bible verse volcano' and report back to me.

By the way, what's 'brimstone'?



Yes. Zero.
The top google search result (which I'm going to assume is your own page until I hear otherwise) is full of verses on a single topic. They all present a single image: "Our God is a consuming fire". God is a righteous judge, and someone to be feared and respected.

You could, likewise, present 50 verses on God being a shepherd.
Does that then mean that God is a volcano who likes to look after sheep in his spare time?
Not so much, no.

You could also present 50 verses on God being a "still, small voice".
Clearly God must be a dormant volcanic shepherd, then?

Or, I could give you 50 verses where God is presented like a lamb.
So God must be a Sheepish volcano who likes to hang out quietly with other sheep.

Are you getting the picture here?
You can build whatever argument you want to, but that doesn't make it valid. What would make it valid is if you took ALL of Scripture, and found a SINGULAR, consistent representation of God as being any one thing. Otherwise, all you're doing is making a mountain out of a metaphor.

BAHAHAHA.
Sometimes I love myself.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by Awen24

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
reply to post by Awen24
 


Zero? That's a bit mean isn't it? Please Google 'Bible verse volcano' and report back to me.

By the way, what's 'brimstone'?



Yes. Zero.
The top google search result (which I'm going to assume is your own page until I hear otherwise) is full of verses on a single topic. They all present a single image: "Our God is a consuming fire". God is a righteous judge, and someone to be feared and respected.

You could, likewise, present 50 verses on God being a shepherd.
Does that then mean that God is a volcano who likes to look after sheep in his spare time?
Not so much, no.

You could also present 50 verses on God being a "still, small voice".
Clearly God must be a dormant volcanic shepherd, then?

Or, I could give you 50 verses where God is presented like a lamb.
So God must be a Sheepish volcano who likes to hang out quietly with other sheep.

Are you getting the picture here?
You can build whatever argument you want to, but that doesn't make it valid. What would make it valid is if you took ALL of Scripture, and found a SINGULAR, consistent representation of God as being any one thing. Otherwise, all you're doing is making a mountain out of a metaphor.

BAHAHAHA.
Sometimes I love myself.


Do you want to go through Exodus and make a note of all the visual descriptions of yahweh and see whether almost all make him look like a volcano or whether they vary randomly? What is said after the Mount Sinai period gets less and less relevant as time goes on.

What is brimstone?


edit on 5-7-2012 by TheFogHorn because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-7-2012 by TheFogHorn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
Allah is not His title; it's His name. Yahweh does not translate to "I Am." "I Am that which I Am" in Hebrew is Ahayah asher Ahayah.

Haha, of course you would ignore everything else I said.

Good day.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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Wanna see Allah's face? I can show you what he looks like.



Wanna see the only idol left in the Ka'aba?



See the crescent moon and star within the V?



Here's a pic below of al'Lat to the left, one of Allah's daughters, see the crescent moon under her? See the pics of "Catholic Mary" with the crescent moon under her? Catholic Mary in catholicism is known as "the bright and morning star, so we have crescent moon and star. Notice the pic on the right of catholic Mary sitting in the Ark with a hole in her chest shaped like a star where the eucharist goes? That aint Mary, it's Ishtar the sungoddes, Allah's wife "the Queen of Heaven" (catholic Mary also bears that title).



O+ = symbol for female.



Add a sun disc into the equation (complete with rays/flames) and we have sungoddess worship. This is the sign Constantine saw, a cross emblazoned under the sun.



Here it is again, the Monarchs Orb, one of the crown jewels of the Queen of England.



Here's another symbol for the sun goddess Ishtar. Medical symbol with caduceus.



And here's a statue of Ishtar. With caduceus wrapped around her.



Oh look here's Cardinal Peter Erdo's coat of arms. Notice the crescent moon and sun(star) above "Mary" (Semiramis/Ishtar).



Oh look here's a minarette ontop of a mosque in the M.E. framed in the sun (Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, or Al'Aqsa).



That old Satan is a clever fellow, he hides this crap right in front of people's faces and they don't even see it. Symbolism my friends, reveals the snake for all to see.

You can't step out your door without him being in your face.

See the crescent moon and star in Osha?



Oh look here's some muslims worshipping the Black Stone meteorite (fallen star) next to the moongod's temple (Ka'aba). Star and crescent moon.



Pre-Islamic tablet depecting that good 'ol sun(star) and crescent moon.



OMG! Catholicism is Islam's wife! No wonder muslims won't murder catholics but protestants are fair game
. Naturally they would protect the worshippers of their moongod's wife. No wonder they both use magical prayer beads and revere "Mary".

And the world is oblivious to the fact yoou can't step out your door without the Queen of Heaven being in your face. Lol, below, the U.N logo. See it yet?



I'll have you seeing stars and moons in your sleep. Below another ancient artifact depicting sun and crescent moon. Agh! They keep coming!



When will it ever stop?

Never, because i can go on like this for hours and hours showing this stuff.
edit on 5-7-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 


I've asked you three times now what brimstone is and you have ignored me.

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; Gen 19:24

It shall dwell in his tabernacle, because it is none of his: brimstone shall be scattered upon his habitation. Job 18:15

Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. Psalm 11:6

And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Ezek 38:22

What is brimstone?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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seeing we're playing the google game, if you're having trouble, perhaps you should google brimstone. I hear Wikipedia has a lovely article on the topic.

Given that you're interested in pre-Sinai descriptions of God, how about we take a step back and look at God in a even earlier context, the book of Job?

In fact, let's narrow it down even more and just take a single chapter. Chapter 38 will do. In this chapter, God:



  1. laid the foundations of the earth (crap, mountains can't do that)
  2. determined earth's measurements (crap again!)
  3. fastened the foundations of the earth (hmm)
  4. shut the sea in (this isn't going well)
  5. made the clouds (well, volcanoes can make clouds. Sort of. Score!)
  6. commanded the morning (oh. Rats.)
  7. stores up snow and hail (volcanic snow?)
  8. diffuses light
  9. scatters wind
  10. creates rain
  11. causes grass to grow
  12. gives birth to ice
  13. binds Pleiades
  14. looses Orion
  15. guides the stars


I could go on, and on, and on. I'm not even halfway through the chapter yet.

But let's step back. Granted, Job is generally considered to predate Moses, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that I can't use Job here. Let's say I only have the Torah. In fact, let's say that I only have the Torah PRIOR to Sinai itself. What then? God:



  1. creates all things (Genesis 1,2)
  2. creates light before the sun (Genesis 1)
  3. creates man (Genesis 1/2)
  4. kills a sheep to clothe man (Genesis 3)
  5. talks (Genesis 2,3 etc)
  6. Creates a worldwide flood (Genesis 6/7/8/9)
  7. confuses the language of man (Genesis 11)
  8. promises Abraham countless descendants (Genesis 13)
  9. destroys Sodom and Gomorrah with FIRE AND BRIMSTONE (ah, but those places are nowhere near Sinai)
  10. requests a sacrifice of Abraham
  11. provides a ram for that sacrifice (Sheep again!)
  12. appears as a burning bush
  13. talks to Moses out of said bush
  14. sends plagues on Egypt
  15. kills all the firstborn in Egypt (what a discriminate volcano!)
  16. has hands (Exodus 15:6)
  17. drowned the Egyptian army with... uh... water (not lava)
  18. gave bread to the Hebrews
  19. sent quail for the Hebrews


Again, I could go on, and on, and on.
What your argument lacks is CONTEXT. To claim that God is a volcano requires us to ignore every other personification or metaphor in Scripture, in favour of yours. That would be... stupid.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


Do mountains love you?

What, in the mecca for global volcanism, could the ancient Meccans possibly have worshipped?

I'm asking very simple questions. Please give me very simple answers.



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