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Is Allah the OT God?

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


Does the Koran say anything about Moses or the exodus?

Or a mountain for that matter?

Perhaps you could provide a passage or two if it does?





posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:21 PM
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QUOTE : 'We are also told that when Muhammad saw the mountain of Uhud, he said, "This is the mountain that loves and is loved by us" (Bukhari 9:433). Muhammad taught that mountains have feelings, emotions and personality. We know today that they are dead, senseless rock and mineral formations pushed up through continental drift and shaped often by volcanoes. The Qur’an tells us that once the hills praised his god (Qur’an 38:18), and that the mountains were afraid (33:72). It talks of the mountains as if they were hollow and will one day collapse in Qur’an 19:90; 56:5; Bukhari 9:75.'

www.bibleandscience.com...



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn

So you're saying that even if the god of the OT was in fact an imaginery volcano god, Allah is still real because it says so in the Koran?


No, not what I said at all. Stop distorting my words into strawmen.

Now, for the final time, do you have any Quranic verses that support your "God is a volcano" theory?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
QUOTE : 'We are also told that when Muhammad saw the mountain of Uhud, he said, "This is the mountain that loves and is loved by us" (Bukhari 9:433). Muhammad taught that mountains have feelings, emotions and personality. We know today that they are dead, senseless rock and mineral formations pushed up through continental drift and shaped often by volcanoes. The Qur’an tells us that once the hills praised his god (Qur’an 38:18), and that the mountains were afraid (33:72). It talks of the mountains as if they were hollow and will one day collapse in Qur’an 19:90; 56:5; Bukhari 9:75.'

www.bibleandscience.com...





How does this prove that Allah was a volcano? Was Uhud a volcano? No. Did Muhammad (saws) tell people to worship the mountain?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by TheFogHorn

So you're saying that even if the god of the OT was in fact an imaginery volcano god, Allah is still real because it says so in the Koran?


No, not what I said at all. Stop distorting my words into strawmen.

Now, for the final time, do you have any Quranic verses that support your "God is a volcano" theory?


You said it could be argued the god of the Bible was a volcano but not the god of the Koran. Please explain this. Saying the Koran says it's the final message is not good enough to explain your asertion. Are you back peddling? Do you now regret saying that? Has it dawned on you that the god of the OT was a volcano god (i.e. not real) and now reasuring yourself that that doesn't affect your religion because the Koran is the last revelation and corrects all errors, even massive ones?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
QUOTE : 'We are also told that when Muhammad saw the mountain of Uhud, he said, "This is the mountain that loves and is loved by us" (Bukhari 9:433). Muhammad taught that mountains have feelings, emotions and personality. We know today that they are dead, senseless rock and mineral formations pushed up through continental drift and shaped often by volcanoes. The Qur’an tells us that once the hills praised his god (Qur’an 38:18), and that the mountains were afraid (33:72). It talks of the mountains as if they were hollow and will one day collapse in Qur’an 19:90; 56:5; Bukhari 9:75.'

www.bibleandscience.com...





How does this prove that Allah was a volcano? Was Uhud a volcano? No. Did Muhammad (saws) tell people to worship the mountain?


Do you believe that mountains love you?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
Do you believe that mountains love you?


Stop changing the subject and trying to avoid questions. You always do this. I'll ask again.

How does this prove that Allah was a volcano? Was Uhud a volcano? No. Did Muhammad (saws) tell people to worship the mountain?

If this quote you provided from some website doesn't prove that Allah is a volcano then why did you post it? What's the point? You are going off-topic if you are not providing evidence for your claim that Allah was a volcano.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


When Moses came to our appointment and was spoken to by his Lord he said: “My Lord, enable me to see You.” He said: “You shall not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it remains steady, you shall see Me.” When his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain He turned it into dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he regained consciousness he said: “Glory be to You! I repent to You, and I am the first of the believers”

OT God does nothing like this... as far as i remember...

Kinda makes the volcano arguement invald as well...




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
Do you believe that mountains love you?


Stop changing the subject and trying to avoid questions. You always do this. I'll ask again.

How does this prove that Allah was a volcano? Was Uhud a volcano? No. Did Muhammad (saws) tell people to worship the mountain?

If this quote you provided from some website doesn't prove that Allah is a volcano then why did you post it? What's the point? You are going off-topic if you are not providing evidence for your claim that Allah was a volcano.


Are you losing your cool Cooler?

`Abbas ibn Sahl reported from Abu Humayd who said: We went out along with Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) in the expedition of Tabuk. We proceeded until we reached the Valley of Al-Qura and Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "I am going forth, so he among you who wants to move fast with me may do so; and he who likes to go slowly may do so." We proceeded until Madinah was within our sight, and he said, "This is Uhud, the mountain which loves us and which we love."

Qatadah reported from Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Uhud is a mountain which loves us and which we love."

[QUOTE]Narrated Anas radi Allahu anhu: Allah's Apostle sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam ascended the (mountain) of Uhud with Abu Bakr and 'Uthman and it shook. Allah's Apostle said, "Be calm, O Uhud!" I think he stroked it with his foot and added, "There is none on you but a Prophet, a Siddiq and two martyrs." (Al-Bukhari)

Mount Uhud, the mountain Mohammad specified as being THE mountain that loved you and that also love....SHOOK? Mohammad told the mountain to calm down? There is another verse that says Mo stroked the mountain with his foot. He sure loved that mountain!

Do you love mountains? More importantly, do they love you back?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn


Are you losing your cool Cooler?


No, I'm not. Stick to the topic. Stop going off-topic and switching the subject to me. Those are ad hominems.


Mount Uhud, the mountain Mohammad specified as being THE mountain that loved you and that also love....SHOOK? Mohammad told the mountain to calm down? There is another verse that says Mo stroked the mountain with his foot. He sure loved that mountain!


So? A lot of inanimate objects did "weird" things in the Bible and Qur'an. In the Bible, a donkey talked. Does that make the donkey God?

You are avoiding the questions again. So I'll pose them again. Was Uhud a volcano? No, it was not.. What is the Islamic significance of Uhud? Answer here

If you claim that Allah was a volcano (or, now, just a mountain?) then how do you explain the verse I've mentioned ad nauseum where Allah says there is nothing in creation comparable to Him?

Also, you keep quoting Hadiths which are sayings of Muhammad. They are not Quranic revelations directly from Allah. Do you have any Quran verses that support your "Allah is a volcano" theory? Because I have provided Quran verses that shoot it down.



Do you love mountains? More importantly, do they love you back?


Sure, I love mountains. I love the beauties and majesties of Allah's creations. I love mountains. I love oceans. I love dogs and cats. I love trees and flowers. I love galaxies and stars. Does that mean I worship them? Does that mean they are Allah? Astaghfirullah. Absolutely not.

Now, again, because I refuse to allow you to keep trying to shift the onus probandi. Do you have Quran evidence for your claim that Allah is a volcano (or a mountain)?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:19 PM
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In the article linked below, Jabal Uhud is said to be of silicic volcanic rock.

sgalghamdy.kau.edu.sa...

This is a surprise isn't it? QUOTE: Between Makkah and Madinah is the 20,000km2 Harrat Rahat lava-field with 644 scoria cones, 36 shield volcanoes and 24 domes. www.saudicaves.com...

I think Mount Uhud is in Harrat Rahat, although I'm not 100% sure.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
In the article linked below, Jabal Uhud is said to be of silicic volcanic rock.

sgalghamdy.kau.edu.sa...


Where? I just searched the PDF file for "Uhud" "Silicic" and "Volcanic" and none of those searches returned any results in the document.

Now, again, where in the Quran do you find evidence that Allah was a volcano (or a mountain)? How do you reconcile this claim with the Quran verse that says "None is comparable to Him"? Allah is distinctly separate from His creation so how then would He be a part of His creation? How did this volcano create the universe?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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Quoting from Wiki....ME IN CAPS.

Ten years later, Moses became very homesick. He approached his wife and told her his plans. They would leave in the morning for Egypt. After briefly reassuring her fears, they left the next morning traveling through the desert until at nightfall they reached Mount Tur. Moses noticed a fire in the distance. He told his family to stay in their tents and that he would get fire to warm them. As he traveled through the dark, searching for the fire,....

MOUNT TUR IS MOUNT SINAI. FIRE?

In the Qur'an, there is a mention of Pharaoh's conversation with his ministers, in which he is reported to have ordered his minister, Haman, to build a tower that would allow Pharaoh to see the God of Moses.

SEE THE GOD OF MOSES BY BUILDING A TOWER?

THIS NEXT BIT IS WEIRD...

Korah told the people that he was favoured by God and he was the possessor of great treasure due to his skill and ability. Despite the warnings of Moses and the Israelites, he continued to behave arrogantly and did not pay alms. Therefore as punishment the earth swallowed his house along with him.

THAT SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE A STORY FROM THE BIBLE ABOUT A KORAH WHO WAS SWALLOWED UP BY THE EARTH...BUT THIS HAPPENED AFTER THE EXODUS. HMMM.....SOMEONE GOT THE STORY WRONG?

Moses continued to lead his people on the Exodus to Mount Sinai. Moses fasted for forty days and then left the people instructing them that Aaron was to be their leader while he was gone. Moses then climbed the mountain. Moses returned to the spot where he had first received his miracles from God. He took off his shoes as before and went down into subjugation to The Creator. He prayed to God for guidance. Moses begged God to reveal himself to him.[48] God told him that it would not be possible for him to see God, but that God will reveal himself to the mountain stating: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When God revealed himself to the mountain it instantaneously turned into ashes. Moses lost consciousness. When he recovered, he went down in total submission and asked forgiveness of God.

SO THE FIRE HAD GONE OUT LEAVING ONLY ASH.

Shortly thereafter, the elders traveled alongside Moses to witness the speech between Moses and God. Despite witnessing the speech between them, they refused to believe until they saw Allah with their own eyes, so as punishment; a thunderbolt killed them.

SO THEY HAD BEEN LED TO BELIEVE IT WAS POSSIBLE TO SEE ALLAH.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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Does this sound like the description of a volcano/mountain?

"(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things)." - Holy Quran, Chapter 42 (Ash-Shura) verse 11.

"And there is none like unto Him." - Holy Quran, Chapter 112 (Al-Ikhlas) verse 4

"Allah the Eternal." - Holy Quran, Chapter 112 verse 2.

I can provide more if need be which show that Allah is separate from His creation therefore He cannot be part of His creation (i.e. a volcano)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn
In the Qur'an, there is a mention of Pharaoh's conversation with his ministers, in which he is reported to have ordered his minister, Haman, to build a tower that would allow Pharaoh to see the God of Moses.


Where? Where in the Qur'an is that? I don't remember that, so please show me where it is, or did you only copy and paste something because it sounded good?

Furthermore, just because Pharaoh did this did not mean that the Pharaoah was right in his belief that building a tower would enable him to see Allah.

Also, if Allah is a volcano/mountain why would you need a tower to see it? Aren't mountains/volcanos large enough to see over other things?

And you claim that Allah was Mount Uhud. Can you see Mount Uhud, even with a tower, from Egypt?

Now you are invoking Mount Sinai. So was Allah Mount Sinai or Mount Uhud?

Really it seems that all you are doing is throwing a bunch of things at a wall, no matter how conflicting, and hoping one of them sticks.


SO THEY HAD BEEN LED TO BELIEVE IT WAS POSSIBLE TO SEE ALLAH.



On what do you base that? Just because someone believes something it doesn't mean that their belief is true. Did they ever see Allah? Nope.

So, again, where in the Quran do you get evidence that Allah was a volcano? How do you refute the numerous Quran verses that separate Allah from His creation?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
In the article linked below, Jabal Uhud is said to be of silicic volcanic rock.

sgalghamdy.kau.edu.sa...


Where? I just searched the PDF file for "Uhud" "Silicic" and "Volcanic" and none of those searches returned any results in the document.

Now, again, where in the Quran do you find evidence that Allah was a volcano (or a mountain)? How do you reconcile this claim with the Quran verse that says "None is comparable to Him"? Allah is distinctly separate from His creation so how then would He be a part of His creation? How did this volcano create the universe?


Page 48. Will you need to be spoon fed through all of this?

Volcanoes create land...they create mountains, they spew out materials, etc.

If I am correct and Allah worship is just an offshoot of Judaism's volcano worship, it wouldn't matter what Allah is said to have said or what people in the Koran have said he is.....he wouldn't exist would he? 'None is comparable to him'......what else on this planet is comparable to a large volcanic eruption? What else, in highly volcanic Saudi, was comparable to the early muslims...or the people who you say worshipped Allah before Islam?

What, in highly volcanic Saudi, the 'mecca' of volcanism as well as Islam in the world, could the ancient desert nomads have worshipped? Go on....let's see if you can bring yourself to say the obvious. This is one hellova test.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn


Page 48. Will you need to be spoon fed through all of this?


Nice. Arrogant insults. But I will answer your condescending question. No I don't need to be "spoonfed" but I do demand that you back up your claims, something which seems impossible for you.


If I am correct and Allah worship is just an offshoot of Judaism's volcano worship


That's a very big "if." It's an "if" that you have yet to prove. Your argument for Yahweh being a volcano is nothing but your own personal interpretation based on nothing more than semantics arguments. At best, your argument is circular.


it wouldn't matter what Allah is said to have said or what people in the Koran have said he is


If Allah is a volcano how did He talk? Also it wasn't "people." It was one person. Muhammad. Did he receive revelations from a volcano? Or are you claiming that he forged/faked the whole thing and deceivingly led people into volcano worship. If he did not receive divine revelations from God then that would have to mean that he was lying about receiving revelations. That's a very big claim to make. Have some evidence to back that up?


'None is comparable to him'......what else on this planet is comparable to a large volcanic eruption?


According to you He was not a volcanic eruption, he was a volcano, or at least a mountain. So what would compare to a volcano? Another, larger volcano/mountain? Or for that matter anything larger than the volcano. It also says there is nothing like unto him. If there is more than one volcano or mountain in the world then by definition there is something comparable to Him. That's why your theory falls apart. There is nothing you can compare to the Eternal Creator that exists outside of Space-Time. There are many things you can compare to a volcano or compare a volcano with.

Are volcanos eternal? No. But in that reference you try to hypocritically claim that it doesn't matter what Muhammad said about Allah. Well if it doesn't matter then you can't use the Quran to argue that Allah was a volcano. You are setting a double standard.

Now all this said once again I want to point out that you descended into petty and childish insults. You cannnot discuss or debate a topic like a mature adult. Once again when the topic doesn't go into favor you throw a fit and start insulting people. So I'm done. I only debate things with people who can remain mature and not descend into arrogance and childish name-calling and ad hominems.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
In the Qur'an, there is a mention of Pharaoh's conversation with his ministers, in which he is reported to have ordered his minister, Haman, to build a tower that would allow Pharaoh to see the God of Moses.


Where? Where in the Qur'an is that? I don't remember that, so please show me where it is, or did you only copy and paste something because it sounded good?

Furthermore, just because Pharaoh did this did not mean that the Pharaoah was right in his belief that building a tower would enable him to see Allah.

Also, if Allah is a volcano/mountain why would you need a tower to see it? Aren't mountains/volcanos large enough to see over other things?

And you claim that Allah was Mount Uhud. Can you see Mount Uhud, even with a tower, from Egypt?

Now you are invoking Mount Sinai. So was Allah Mount Sinai or Mount Uhud?

Really it seems that all you are doing is throwing a bunch of things at a wall, no matter how conflicting, and hoping one of them sticks.


SO THEY HAD BEEN LED TO BELIEVE IT WAS POSSIBLE TO SEE ALLAH.



On what do you base that? Just because someone believes something it doesn't mean that their belief is true. Did they ever see Allah? Nope.

So, again, where in the Quran do you get evidence that Allah was a volcano? How do you refute the numerous Quran verses that separate Allah from His creation?


Pharaoh said, "Council, I do not know of any other god for you apart from Me. Haman, kindle a fire for me over the clay and build me a lofty tower so that perhaps I may be able to climb up to Musa's god! I consider him a blatant liar." (Qur'an, 28:38)

The Pharaoh wanted to reconstruct the walking up a mount and meeting with god moment that Moses had relayed to him. The ancient Hebrews, at least at first, believed their god landed on the fiery mountain....because they had never known a mountain could be hollow and that the fire and lava could be coming from inside. They believed their god came down through the heavens (ash clouds and smoke) and landed on the top of the mountain.

I didn't say that Mount Sinai was Mount Uhud. It's possible.

I'm throwing things against a wall? Are you a wall? I thought you were a truth seeker. That's what you said earlier. I'm just investigating an idea. Are you not investigating it too?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by TheFogHorn

I didn't say that Mount Sinai was Mount Uhud. It's possible.


You claimed before that Yahweh was Mount Sinai. Now Allah is Mount Uhud. If Allah and Yahweh were the same then Sinai and Uhud would have to be the same.


I'm throwing things against a wall? Are you a wall?


Oh, for God's sake. It's a figure of speech. You've never heard that? Basically, it means you are throwing every possibility out there in hopes that one of them will stick.


I thought you were a truth seeker. That's what you said earlier. I'm just investigating an idea. Are you not investigating it too?


I am a truth seeker. That doesn't mean I have to swallow every shovelful of horse manure that is put in my face. I have investigated your claim and refuted it at every turn. You have provided no evidence whatsoever to back it up. At best, all you have is a semantics argument and a twisted interpretation of religious texts.



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