Big Bang - Where's the hole?

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posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by wirehead
 


you use the balloon analogy to describe a very tiny concept,.,.,.,., if there are 3 galaxies,,, the space in between them gets larger,..,., thats all the balloon analogy attempts at describing,,, no need to make it more complicated,.,.,., I agree that galaxies move in relation to other galaxies,..,.,., I agree the distance between galaxies change,.,.,,.


something im wondering on a different line of thought,.,..,,.,.

is it known what becomes of all the energy/radiation emitted at all times from every star and galaxy? where does it go, what does it do?




posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by wirehead
 


"The observed redshift of every extragalactic object in the sky is not trivial. It looks like everything is moving away from us. That's a pretty big, glaring fact one must explain. "

if we were on a carousel.,.., and we were seated across from each other,.,,. and the carousel was very large,,.,., so large that we needed a camera to prove to ourselves there was another across from us,,,, every time we took a picture across it would look as though, the other across was moving away from us,,,



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
you use the balloon analogy to describe a very tiny concept,.,.,.,., if there are 3 galaxies,,, the space in between them gets larger,..,., thats all the balloon analogy attempts at describing,,, no need to make it more complicated,.,.,., I agree that galaxies move in relation to other galaxies,..,.,., I agree the distance between galaxies change,.,.,,.


Well the balloon analogy helps to explain the difference between expansion of space and an explosion- an explosion would have the big void in the middle. In the 2D surface of the balloon, there is no void and no center to things.



something im wondering on a different line of thought,.,..,,.,.

is it known what becomes of all the energy/radiation emitted at all times from every star and galaxy? where does it go, what does it do?


It mostly just flies along until it hits something- usually dust. Some of it happens to land right on your retina when you look up into the sky. Altogether, it contributes to the total energy density of the universe, although these days radiation doesn't contribute much compared to matter.


Originally posted by ImaFungi
if we were on a carousel.,.., and we were seated across from each other,.,,. and the carousel was very large,,.,., so large that we needed a camera to prove to ourselves there was another across from us,,,, every time we took a picture across it would look as though, the other across was moving away from us,,,


On a carousel, everyone else on the carousel is stationary relative to you. It's the whole outside world that seems to be spinning around.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by wirehead
 


but you agree that all physical matter was once all densly together,,,, and it expanded in micronanoseconds?

if its all together one micronsecond and the next completely separated by light years,,,, isnt that activity synonymous with explosive?



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by wirehead
 



"It mostly just flies along until it hits something- usually dust. Some of it happens to land right on your retina when you look up into the sky. Altogether, it contributes to the total energy density of the universe, although these days radiation doesn't contribute much compared to matter."

you dont think millions of years of stars worth of radiation and energy can have anything to do with dark matter or energy?

some of it hits our retina, thats funny,,,, thats the least amount of energy the sun lets of the relatively handful of photons that hit our eye in this moment or that,.,.,.., millions of years of the suns energy going off into space has created all life on earth,,, so im assuming it is quite powerful stuff,, and there is quite a lot of it,.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by wirehead
 


but you agree that all physical matter was once all densly together,,,, and it expanded in micronanoseconds?

if its all together one micronsecond and the next completely separated by light years,,,, isnt that activity synonymous with explosive?


Take all the matter at that early moment, then expand all the space evenly so every dimension gets stretched out evenly. What you get is the same distribution, just scaled up.

Take that matter and explode it from the middle. What you get is a shell of matter.

One of these models fits the data, and one does not.


Originally posted by ImaFungi

you dont think millions of years of stars worth of radiation and energy can have anything to do with dark matter or energy?

some of it hits our retina, thats funny,,,, thats the least amount of energy the sun lets of the relatively handful of photons that hit our eye in this moment or that,.,.,.., millions of years of the suns energy going off into space has created all life on earth,,, so im assuming it is quite powerful stuff,, and there is quite a lot of it,.


Well you see, you can actually do the calculation based on what we see and know, and you find that matter is much more important than all the background radiation. There are several reasons why radiation doesn't dominate cosmological dynamics today.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by wirehead
 


if it did explode like the manner i described and did leave an empty center, with all physical universal matter residing around this center and expanding outwardly in relation to that center.,,..,. if that did occur,,,. from where we are in the universe,, would we be able to detect or measure that center?



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by wirehead
 


if it did explode like the manner i described and did leave an empty center, with all physical universal matter residing around this center and expanding outwardly in relation to that center.,,..,. if that did occur,,,. from where we are in the universe,, would we be able to detect or measure that center?


We wouldn't know where we are in the universe, but we would be able to detect either a lack of galaxies in one direction, or different arrangements of redshift, or both.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 12:49 AM
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Originally posted by Lionhearte
reply to post by Kryties
 


Lol. Sure, call yourself "rational" and "logical" all you want. Doesn't make it so. I call your beliefs a religion, because it requires faith. Your deity is called "Chance" and "Time" and with them, all things are possible. They have brought us to where we are today, according to your very own religion.





I don't really care about your answer actually, I'm sure it will be some more nonsense regarding something some dude said in the Bible, right after God conjures up a few rainbows.

Okay?


Originally posted by jiggerj
And your deductive reasoning is, a god did it all? I say this with a giggle: Are you insane?

The creation needs a creator. Would you laugh at someone who claims a watchmaker made their watch, calling them insane? Based off your logic, I suppose you would. And that, friend, would make you mentally unstable, as most people would agree. At least, those who have a working 3 lb brain.
edit on 5-7-2012 by Lionhearte because: (no reason given)



This is a perfect example of the ignorance of creationists.

You see, there is something called math. Study math.

Than study more.

You see, if anything has a chance to happen, and has billions of years (or more), it WILL happen!

EVERYTHING is chance; What we call "probability."

If something has a probability of happening, it (generally) will.

There is a approx 99.999999999999% chance the sun will show at sunrise. The .0000000001% it wont comes from Lunar Eclipses..

There is either a chance something will happen on a cosmic scale, meaning it will, or 0.

Someone with more math knowledge than me can describe further.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by wirehead
 


if it did explode like the manner i described and did leave an empty center, with all physical universal matter residing around this center and expanding outwardly in relation to that center.,,..,. if that did occur,,,. from where we are in the universe,, would we be able to detect or measure that center?


Envision it as implosion due tpo infinite density, gravity, time, spin and temperature
and not explosion.
In effect two cones along the axis of spin/rotation



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by CLPrime

Originally posted by ImaFungi

isnt the definition of increasing distance between two objects,,, movement?


Nope. Not in this case, anyway. The space between the objects is expanding, the objects aren't propelling themselves away from each other.


Ummmm......Wether the truck is driving away from you under it's own propulsion or is simply sliding down the curvature of space-time, or is being propelled by an increase in spatial pressure.......depicting movement...or the truck is being pushed away from you by the expansion of space/time...ie "some force"....it is still moving.....regardless of wether the "distance" between you and the truck (the observer and the observed) is created by either of these. In toto, regardless of the vehicle, the distance increases between the objects and the objects have moved in tandem with the distance increase. That is to say that their relative positions have changed as per their previous spatial positioning.

In essence you are arguing that the truck driver does not move but the truck moves the driver, or that the two ink spots on the balloon did not move apart from themselves, they were merely seperated by the expansion of the increased pressure. In essence wether the points crawled away or were displaced by another force....."They were moved".....



Another fine point is that this spacial expansion that is pressing "matter" outward and away from other "matter" is indeed "pressing" them.....indicating an increased spacial pressure.
Obviously you were stating that in infinitude, infinity would propell the finite until it filled the infinite and that, that is the ongoing process you describe.

It's apples and oranges all over again, either you changed position, or your position was changed...for you...it changed and you were indeed moved by it.........
Also, if expanding space increases the distance between objects, then space cannot be "nothingness" it must have energy or force if only in the sense that it catalyzes change in the spatial reference of matter/energies. Perhaps then, "space" is the missing link that keeps matter, material...it certainly does "contain" all of matter and now we have concluded that it "presses" as it expands. Perhaps also this unseen dark matter and dark energy are only attributes of space/time itself and not a true "matter" or "energy" at all......

Just pondering

YouSir



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by YouSir
 


Where I said "the objects aren't propelling themselves away from each other" should indicate that I was, at least for the moment, considering "movement" to be self-propulsion.

Movement is active or passive. Active: an object moves. Passive: an object is moved. Neither is the case with metric expansion.
In the case of expansion, an object at Point A stays at Point A and an object at Point B stays at Point B, no matter who you ask. This means there is no movement of either the object at Point A or the object at Point B. Rather, what's happening is the space between Point A and Point B is stretching. This doesn't move either object. In fact, if it moves the objects, then it actually moves the Points themselves. Seeing as how it's impossible for coordinate points to move, this obviously didn't happen...and neither did any movement of the objects at those points.

There is no movement. At all.

Also, the pressure isn't acting on objects...it's acting on space. It's stretching space, not pushing on objects. Again, no movement. Just stretching space.
edit on 10-7-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by YouSir
 


Where I said "the objects aren't propelling themselves away from each other" should indicate that I was, at least for the moment, considering "movement" to be self-propulsion.

Movement is active or passive. Active: an object moves. Passive: an object is moved. Neither is the case with metric expansion.
In the case of expansion, an object at Point A stays at Point A and an object at Point B stays at Point B, no matter who you ask. This means there is no movement of either the object at Point A or the object at Point B. Rather, what's happening is the space between Point A and Point B is stretching. This doesn't move either object. In fact, if it moves the objects, then it actually moves the Points themselves. Seeing as how it's impossible for coordinate points to move, this obviously didn't happen...and neither did any movement of the objects at those points.

There is no movement. At all.

Also, the pressure isn't acting on objects...it's acting on space. It's stretching space, not pushing on objects. Again, no movement. Just stretching space.
edit on 10-7-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)


Ummm, That would be wonderful....if we dont consider time.
So, according to your explanation, all of matter has not moved and still occupies the singularity at the moment....BEFORE...expansion. You have also stated that it is not space that presses on matter but that some unexplained pressure is distorting space or "stretching" it. (I know, I know, please insert "dark energy")
You have in essence implied that space itself is stretched, is it then thinned, like the rubber in the balloon analogy? When matter and space finally fit infinity (after having been stretched infinitly) then perhaps the moment of origen achieves collapse and the process resets, i.e., space and time rupture, the pressure is released and you achieve a universal collapse and another another universe is born from the ashes of the previous.
To return to my truck analogy, you state that the truck never moved and that is certainly true if one removes time from the equation, yet, as the truck lumbers along it's route, it's coordinate certainly keeps pace with it.
Any movement can be considered a fluid set of coordinates. You have only stated the obvious when you say that coordinates dont move, of course they dont, but the position of an object is changed relative to it's previous position in both active and passive movement.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, or argumentative, I'm only trying to think my way through this. If I can gain some additional insight into what to me is a very intriguing proposition, all the better. Thank you in advance for whatever clarification you may provide.

YouSir



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by YouSir

Ummm, That would be wonderful....if we dont consider time.


Actually most people do forget one fact when they talk about the expansion of space -- it's an expansion of time as well. The entire spacetime manifold is expanding, not just its spatial components.



So, according to your explanation, all of matter has not moved and still occupies the singularity at the moment....BEFORE...expansion.


I didn't say that. I said objects aren't moving from coordinate locations...but the space between those locations is growing. It's not movement, it's scale factor. The universe is being scaled up (growing), but the objects within it are staying the same physical size due to gravitational attraction. Consequently, the space between objects is growing.



You have also stated that it is not space that presses on matter but that some unexplained pressure is distorting space or "stretching" it. (I know, I know, please insert "dark energy")


Unexplained? Not really. I gave one possible explanation earlier in this thread.



You have in essence implied that space itself is stretched,


I didn't imply it, I stated it flat out.



is it then thinned, like the rubber in the balloon analogy?


Hard to say. The general consensus would be "probably not," but that's like asking if Bigfoot has blue eyes.


Insofar as your truck analogy, picture this:
Two trucks are on a rubber road. The trucks aren't moving at all, but the rubber is being stretched. Are the trucks moving? No. Is the distance between them growing? Yes.
That's expansion.



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


"Are the trucks moving? No. Is the distance between them growing? Yes.
That's expansion."

are the trucks moving in relation to where they once were?

is that the definition of movement? to occupy one point in space,,, and then arrive in or travel to another?

I know your gonna say something like the point in space the truck occupies does not move or change because it is still the same truck in its same point or space, and thats what you meant with coordinates,,,
edit on 11-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Relative to the land around the rubber road, the trucks are being moved by the stretching of the rubber road...but, relative to the rubber road, they're not. The rubber road is stretching, the trucks aren't moving (again, relative to the rubber road).
It's the same with space, where, again, space is the rubber road (and only the rubber road).



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by CLPrime

Actually most people do forget one fact when they talk about the expansion of space -- it's an expansion of time as well. The entire spacetime manifold is expanding, not just its spatial components.


So what exacrly is this expansion of time?
Dilation or Acceln?



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by Angelic Resurrection
 


That would be dilation. It's all metric expansion (dilation).



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


is the effect of time dilation why,, the solar system can be traveling through space at high speeds along with our planet,, and we can experience this event in almost slow motion from our relatively tiny vantage point?



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Nope...that's because, in our reference frame, we're not flying through space at all.





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