Iranians mourn victims from airliner shot down by US warship in 1988

Originally posted by FlyersFan
As usual .. the yutz's come out in full force and ignore the question because it makes them think.

Again ... A MISTAKE made 25 years ago by an American is being paraded out by the Iranian government. It was a MISTAKE from a long time ago. On the other hand, the Iranian government is currently engaged in international terrorism and is killing people all over the planet .. ON PURPOSE. So the question remains ... are they having a day of mourning for all those they intentionally kill ... or are they just having a government sponsored hate-America propaganda festival?

Triple dog dare you all to answer ... and answer correctly.

Originally posted by SGTSECRET
Sure we can talk about state sponsored terrorism, but it's a subject that can't be brought up without mentioning that the majority is supported by the U.S.

Wanna' prove that the 'majority' of international state sponsored terrorism is done by the USA?

Don't bother trying. I'm sure your definition of 'terrorism' is very different than what it is in reality.


That all being said ... I never said America was perfect .. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the Iranian actions. This is a CONSPIRACY site and you are supposed to do some critical thinking ... so I suggest ya'll make an attempt at it and try to see past the first layer of propaganda being pumped out by Iran. Put the math together .... they are getting ready to close the Strait of Hormuz and there is a build up of US and Iranian ships there ... so the gov't of Iran declares national mourning for an ACCIDENT that happened 25 years ago to try to get the people geared up to hate America as much as possible so they'll support military action in the Hormuz. 1 + 1 = 2. Simple math.

Don't bother trying? Why not? Here is a little help.

1951- CIA is involved in a coup to overthrow nationalist Primeminister Dr. Muhammed Mossadeq in Iran. Supports Iranian military in massacre of Mossadeq supporters and returns the Shah to power. In 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA-trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet, and that the number and variety of torture techniques the CIA had taught SAVAK were "beyond belief." 1951-CIA involved in terror campaign against democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. After Arbenz government is overthrown, CIA backed regimes murder more than 100,000 Guatemalans over the next 40 years

1961- CIA recruits 1500 Cuban exiles to invade Cuba and overthrow the Castro regime. The Bay of Pigs invasion would be a disaster, however the CIA would continue with more than two dozen attempts to kill Castro.

1963- The CIA have South Vietnemese president Ngo Dinh Diem overthrown and assasinated for supporting negotiations with the north. After 20 years of covert war the U.S. turns to direct military invasion, in a war that costs tens of thousands of Vietnemese, Cambodian and U.S. lives

1963- CIA recruits Iraqi Baath Party (including a young Saddam Hussein) to assasinate the new leader, Abdul-Karim Kassem. After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate. During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.

I'll stop here, because I know what the next reply is..."you cant prove any of this happened" or something similar. This is historical stuff so there's no need to post a source, a ten year old could find this info in multiple locations.

I recall reading back then that VP Bush visited the ship afterward. He gave the commander a medal and the guy who pressed the launch button got a higher medal. I do not think it was any mistake.

“I’ll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don’t care what the facts are.” ---George HW Bush

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by SUICIDEHK45
Just a reminder that the U.S. is not perfect like some people think.

So .. it's just an anti-America trolling thread then?? Okay. Good to know.

Here ... a little jab back atchya .... I wonder if the Iranians mourn all the innocent victims that their government have killed. You know ... all the state sponsored terrorism that Iran is responsible for through Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and the insurgency in Iraq .. etc etc.

Once again we have a flag-waving patriotic American comparing atrocities in a useless attempt to justify killing innocent people. Give it a rest, the rest of the world is onto that nonsense.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

How do you mistake an Airbus for an F-14?

With great difficulty I would imagine.

Having said that, this story, as it is running today, is just the Iranian government trying to pick at a scab. After 20 some odd years you would expect that people would move on. Then again....how will our government treat 9-11 after a full 20 years?

You're 11 years in and still going strong mate.

Here is the "official" DOD report.

www.dod.gov...

For everyone cursing at the U.S. for their actions on that day that caused the incident, I would advise you to watch this episode of "Aircraft Investigations" from National Geographic.

It's an excellent show that uses real testimonies, recorded data from the aircrafts and radars, and then relies on experts opinion to explain what really happened.

As sad as the incident may be, it was basically human error. A clear situation where stress, fatigue and pressure made the people responsible for taking action making the wrong calls.

It was as basic as looking at a radar signature ID (transponder ID number) and interpreting it as being from a F-14 fighter from Iran, and actually being a civilian airliner from Iran.

dp

reply to post by Tifozi


I recently mentioned that when the Zimmerman/Treyvon Martin case first came out, the entire nation was ready to lynch him. If the story went as it was told originally, what we had was a mistake of the exact same nature as what we have here. We were in their waters, and had already had harsh interactions with them.

You can't go waving a gun (or missile) around threatening people, then say it was "an accident" when it finally goes off and kills someone (or 260 someones).

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Agreed. But this isn't clearly a case of bad behavior on part of the U.S. military.

The warship in question was in fact engaging targets, and was under attack (which was fairly common at the time it seems). That alone puts the perspective of the whole situation on a different side. It was not a matter of the americans firing first and asking questions later, they were in a hostile situation, under threat, and they spotted what could be a incoming hostile jet-fighter from Iran.

Since the boats they were engaging WERE related to Iran, the thought of an F-14 coming to attack them gains even more strength.

Now, if we look at this case with the eyes of the americans that made the mistakes, it's at least understandable the kind of situation they were in. If you dismiss the human error in the whole situation, their actions weren't very irresponsible.

The Captain was informed of an incoming fighter during a crisis, and made several correct decisions on how to address it. Several calls were made to the aircraft, warning it to wave off and change direction (again, they thought it was a F-14 fighter, and still made several attempts to wave him off 'peacefully').

The aircraft continued it's path, and it was considered an hostile approach. Considering that, the crew waited to the very last moment to act aggressively. Only after several warnings and several displays of restrain, the crew decided to fire the missile, and even after the missile was fired(while it was still traveling to the target), they continued the attempts to wave him off course, and if the aircraft responded, they would abort the shot and self-destruct the missile while in flight.

It was a perfect hit and brought the aircraft down.

The sad part of all this is that it wasn't a technological error. The civilian Iranian airliner wasn't doing anything wrong. Their radios were operational and on the respective frequencies they should be using. Their flight path was legitimate and they didn't do any maneuvers that could be interpreted as being hostile or life threatening.

When the radar signature appeared they immediately tried to ID correctly the aircraft, since these crews are perfectly aware that there is such a thing as civilian and military aircraft. From what is understood (or public), the radar operator made a mistake when reading the transponder code. Similar to one of us reading the license plate on a car to ID where it comes from and what it is.

Without going into much technical detail, the number that appeared on the radar display seemed the code for an Iranian F-14. The crew member responsible for that possibly related the number on the display, to the tags they know to belong to F-14 fighters.

Wether the crew member misread the number (human error), or the display actually presented the wrong number (tech error) is still unclear to this day.

That small error in reading a "license plate" happened, and all the actions that were taken afterwards were made under the assumption it was in fact a possibly hostile fighter plane.

Not only that, but the fact they thought it was a F-14 means that they were trying to contact a plane on a set of frequencies that weren't the same as the civilian flight, which made it even worst. It was impossible for the iranian crew to address the warnings because they weren't even on the same channels for communication.

Several errors were made, from the ID, to the way they tried to communicate with the plane.

But all of these have to be taken into account considering that warship was under attack and dealing with a crisis in a very sensitive territory as you mentioned.

I'm not defending them, not justifying their actions of that day. I just think things aren't always black and white, and human error is a colossal factor in these situations. Sadly, it all played the wrong way.

Possibly, this kind of things happen every day around the world. But someone responds to the warnings, or someone changes course, and nothing happens.

On this day, everything went down a path of no-return that ended in the loss of innocent lives. It's not easy to digest and we are talking about innocent deaths, but the accident is fairly simple.

reply to post by Tifozi


Oh, i wouldn't doubt that it was psyops by Iran or US officials. That is the name of the game. Kill a bunch of dissidents, load them onto a plane, and send them to be blown out of the sky.

The problem there is, we stepped right into that pile of dog crap, and then didn't even bother to wipe our shoe clean before walking off.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Oh, i wouldn't doubt that it was psyops by Iran or US officials. That is the name of the game. Kill a bunch of dissidents, load them onto a plane, and send them to be blown out of the sky.

Well, from the information I had through the years, I think that would be impossible to accomplish.

It was more a situation of a civilian plane being in the wrong place at the wrong time, than a complex operation to stain international relationships.

The problem there is, we stepped right into that pile of dog crap, and then didn't even bother to wipe our shoe clean before walking off.

Well, with that I partially agree.

Although I'm only addressing the issue of the shooting, we have to remember the conflict that was happening at the time.

I'm not anti-west or anti-US by any means or any stretch of imagination. I simply have the opinion that the U.S. has intelligence and capable people to address these countries and these situations in a very different manner.

A lot of crap that has been flying towards the west and particularly to the U.S. has been a direct result of bad policies and wrong decisions. All of which could have been avoided. The U.S. had the chance to be a beacon in that area, and actually act as a hero. It was all blown away by a whole set of political and strategic decisions that were too ambitious and poorly thought out...

reply to post by SGTSECRET
You have missed the point completely. What he is saying (which is spot on IMO) is that the Iranian government is pulling at anything and everything to rile everyone who hates or disdains America by using the 25 year old incident, thus, propaganda.

TOPIC RELATED: I find it funny that a country can talk about all the horrible things we have done to them but it's okay for them to hold an entire consulate hostage... great people.

Let's not forget the FACT that they are a HOSTILE nation with HOSTILE tendancies that have repeatedly made HOSTILE remarks about taking out Jerusalem. I'm not fan of that zionist regime, however, anybody talking about eradicating anybody publicly or in secret is wrong. By the same rational my beloved America has been wrong quite a bit these days.

But here we go again.. we have the best America haters on ATS already on the case. By the by I wonder where Germanicus has been lately?

Originally posted by 31Bravo
reply to post by SGTSECRET

 

You have missed the point completely. What he is saying (which is spot on IMO) is that the Iranian government is pulling at anything and everything to rile everyone who hates or disdains America by using the 25 year old incident, thus, propaganda.

But here we go again.. we have the best America haters on ATS already on the case. By the by I wonder where Germanicus has been lately?

edit on 5-7-2012 by 31Bravo because: (no reason given)

Germanicus?

Well I totally agree it is all propaganda. Oh were Iranian and we lost 290 people who would have been in jails if still alive because they were political dissedents. People die every day and in any number of ways. Some just die for a cause. Others for dumb reasons.

Let's not forget the FACT that they are a HOSTILE nation with HOSTILE tendancies that have repeatedly made HOSTILE remarks about taking out Jerusalem. I'm not fan of that zionist regime, however, anybody talking about eradicating anybody publicly or in secret is wrong. By the same rational my beloved America has been wrong quite a bit these days.

reply to post by 31Bravo


Hostile Nation? When is the last time they invaded another country?
Hostile Tendencies? I guess by this you mean the tendency to make remarks against America.
Hostile Remarks? You are really going to claim that Iran making hostile remarks is wrong, when half of the world does it?

The drums of war are louder than ever know along with all the anti - Iran bs on the news. Iran is in no way a threat to the U.S. and doesn't actively provoke others just to get a reaction. Why are we talking of war with Iran when a true hostile nation, that actually attacks another nation, AND makes hostile remarks daily not only to the U.S. but others as well, goes without any mention?

Originally posted by SGTSECRET

Let's not forget the FACT that they are a HOSTILE nation with HOSTILE tendancies that have repeatedly made HOSTILE remarks about taking out Jerusalem. I'm not fan of that zionist regime, however, anybody talking about eradicating anybody publicly or in secret is wrong. By the same rational my beloved America has been wrong quite a bit these days.

reply to post by 31Bravo

 

Hostile Nation? When is the last time they invaded another country?
Hostile Tendencies? I guess by this you mean the tendency to make remarks against America.
Hostile Remarks? You are really going to claim that Iran making hostile remarks is wrong, when half of the world does it?

Why are we talking of war with Iran when a true hostile nation, that actually attacks another nation, AND makes hostile remarks daily not only to the U.S. but others as well, goes without any mention?

When was the last time they openly invaded a country? 1988. But they also have been using proxie groups such as hezbollah by financing them so you could count them as proxie invaders.

Hostile tendencies? Cracking down on their own people for one. Supplying weapons and know how to enemies of Iran instead of having the balls to do it themselves and also planning assasinations.

Hostile remarks? To many to list if you actually research it and get a translation that has not been spun.

And id guess you are talking about israel. Your profile comments below your post give it away that you hate or dislike israels leaders. Are you a white power sort of guy too i wonder? Its ok to admit how you feel. We wont judge you..LOL oh who am i kidding? we cant help but judge you from your post and profile comments,but thats what you want to say See they are all against me! Am i right ? Dont answer that its rhetorical.

Personally I do not care what happens to israel because if they are destined to survive they will. And the fact i am still pissed about that incident with that girl i liked getting blown up by a dang rocket from the pali territory. At least im honest about how i feel about israel and the palis and Iran.

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by SGTSECRET

Let's not forget the FACT that they are a HOSTILE nation with HOSTILE tendancies that have repeatedly made HOSTILE remarks about taking out Jerusalem. I'm not fan of that zionist regime, however, anybody talking about eradicating anybody publicly or in secret is wrong. By the same rational my beloved America has been wrong quite a bit these days.

reply to post by 31Bravo

 

Hostile Nation? When is the last time they invaded another country?
Hostile Tendencies? I guess by this you mean the tendency to make remarks against America.
Hostile Remarks? You are really going to claim that Iran making hostile remarks is wrong, when half of the world does it?

Why are we talking of war with Iran when a true hostile nation, that actually attacks another nation, AND makes hostile remarks daily not only to the U.S. but others as well, goes without any mention?

When was the last time they openly invaded a country? 1988. But they also have been using proxie groups such as hezbollah by financing them so you could count them as proxie invaders.

Hostile tendencies? Cracking down on their own people for one. Supplying weapons and know how to enemies of Iran instead of having the balls to do it themselves and also planning assasinations.

Hostile remarks? To many to list if you actually research it and get a translation that has not been spun.

And id guess you are talking about israel. Your profile comments below your post give it away that you hate or dislike israels leaders. Are you a white power sort of guy too i wonder? Its ok to admit how you feel. We wont judge you..LOL oh who am i kidding? we cant help but judge you from your post and profile comments,but thats what you want to say See they are all against me! Am i right ? Dont answer that its rhetorical.

Personally I do not care what happens to israel because if they are destined to survive they will. And the fact i am still pissed about that incident with that girl i liked getting blown up by a dang rocket from the pali territory. At least im honest about how i feel about israel and the palis and Iran.

Actually I don't care at all about Israel at all, other than all the money and weapons my country supplies them with. If we have money to send over there, we should have money to fix problems here at home too, but somehow we don't. That, however is beside the point. With hostile tendencies, remarks, and actions I was referring to North Korea, whom for some reason we seem to always sweep under the rug.

How can you bring up funding groups and supplying weapons as if it is a bad thing, when the U.S. does the exact same things on a regular basis? My point is, one state can't be hypocritical of another. For one of the 'greatest' countries on the planet, we have a terrible record of war, overthrowing governments(even elected ones), and human rights violations.

You cannot judge without first looking in the mirror.

reply to post by SGTSECRET


Actually yes I can judge someone. same as you can judge someone. Its a personal opinion formed when you first talk to some one or read about them. Just like you are judging Israel I can judge Iran. Does it make us right? No. And Yes the US does fund some unsavory people but we all know that so i didnt think it mattered for the 1 millionth time.

Originally posted by SGTSECRET
Hostile Nation? When is the last time they invaded another country?
Hostile Tendencies? I guess by this you mean the tendency to make remarks against America.
Hostile Remarks? You are really going to claim that Iran making hostile remarks is wrong, when half of the world does it?

The drums of war are louder than ever know along with all the anti - Iran bs on the news. Iran is in no way a threat to the U.S. and doesn't actively provoke others just to get a reaction. Why are we talking of war with Iran when a true hostile nation, that actually attacks another nation, AND makes hostile remarks daily not only to the U.S. but others as well, goes without any mention?

Surely you jest.. Iran hardly has the means to invade others. If they had a big credit card like the U.S. they would have. My god man, they are talking about destroying Israel! You are military, yet you are forgetting that Iran set the stage for violence with the west in the '70's... sstop drinking the Iranian kool-aid.

Iranian BS on MSM is exactly that.. but just because they are spewing propaganda doesn't mean Iran does not have hostile capabilities. Not that it makes it right but at least the U.S. tries to make it look like they are doing bad for the good "Win the hearts and minds".. you think Iran would even bother trying to look like the hero? No.

FYI, just because the MSM is BS most of the time doesn't mean that America is like the book '1984'.. not yet anyway. There is a small amount of truth.. journalism is a cash machine PERIOD regardless of what country it's coming from.

By the by, do some searching online of the things Iran HAS done.. I'm not posting links for you because I expect members who decide to post in these forums to have a pretty good idea of the capabilities of both sides.

reply to post by SGTSECRET


I see memory doesn't serve you well.

Lebanon, 1983: The Hezbollah bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, killing 240 American soldiers.
Hezbollah is an Iranian / Lebanese division, trained, supplied and funded by Iran. It's essentially their pet dog who does all the dirty work for them, while making their fanatical regime appear innocent, so people will continue with this “who have they attacked ?” nonsense.

topics.nytimes.com...