Austerity puts a universal free NHS in doubt - think tank

reply to post by Flavian


It isn't a game I am playing. The Tories made it pretty clear that they were going to be swinging the axe left right and centre with their ridiculous front-loaded austerity plan. Why a Nurse, Teacher any public servant would vote for them is beyond me.

The Tories are the party of the rich for the rich and always have been. Admittedly Labour have come a long way to the centre in an effort to get elected and are tarred with the light regulation brush. I hope they have learned from that mistake of following the Tories when it comes to the City.

The Tories already are working at the dismantling of the NHS as the main care provider in this country with their health "reform".

All hospitals will become Foundation Trusts and will be able to generate much more income from private patients, up to 49%. Until now that has been limited to 2%. Private firms and charities will also be given the chance to provide services to the NHS as the reforms allow "any qualified provider" to bid for certain contracts.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Are you trying to tell me the above is to make the NHS a better service? or is its aim to open an uncloseable door to those dreaded private health insurance companies?

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


I am not a fan of private initiatives in the NHS - i am actually very proud of our Health Service.

That said though, why should we have to pay for people that get too hammered to look after themselves? Why should we pay for people that won't stop eating?

Pass the cost on in certain areas and we suddenly have surplus funds for things like Elderly Care. I realise there all sorts of holes in this argument but i honestly think people have to understand the reality of the situation (financially).

The NHS can recoup massive funds from things as simple as undertaking proper procurement of materials - therefore paying market price for goods rather than the vastly distorted "NHS price".

It goes on and on, but the basic premise is there is undeniably gross mismanagement of the NHS at the moment and this needs to change. Then they could afford all the Doctors and Nurses that are needed.

reply to post by Flavian

Do you disagree that people need to take more responsibility for their actions?

It is not pertinent to the thread. It is a value judgement that should be discussed in a thread about the ethics and moralities of lifestyles.

Tories always walk in sideways into arguments about the NHS with their disassociate perceptions of others.

How about taxing luxury cars at 100%, second homes, spirits and champagne and multiple holidays to subsidies the NHS some more. I think we ought to double tax the rich, especially bankers.

No, I am not indifferent to the suffering or life experience of people. I was 27 when I was diagnosed with a progressive degenerative and incurable neurological illness for which I take 7 different types of medication (over 25 tablets a day), I have regular MRI scans, receive physiotherapy etc. You obviously did not read where I said I owe my continuing existence to the NHS, so I, more than most, know the value of the service it provides. My daughter is in a wheelchair and/or bedridden following a serious accident from which she may never recover, so between us we take up huge amounts of NHS resources.

I am not talking about dismantling the NHS I am talking about educating people, not only about how to look after their own health but about personal responsibility. The problem with the NHS is that it is a sacred cow so no one wants to tackle the problems it faces, successive Governments simply put a sticking plaster over it hope for the best.

Do I look after myself ? You bet I do because if I don't I will lose all the movement I have worked and fought so hard for. That is why I support personal responsibility.

As for me and my "kind" my political allegiance has always been so left of center my friends always joked that I could not even turn right in my car ! I was a staunch Labour supporter until Tony Blair bent over for Bush and the US oil interest and took us into Iraq, at this moment I would not support any party in the UK but historically and morally I am a Socialist. At 5 my grandfather (who marched with Keir Hardie and was one of the first members of the Labour party) took me to meet a wonderful woman who had worked with Harold Wilson in the Labour Government to let me know that gender did not mean that you could not play an important part in Politics, at 17 I was a Union shop steward who was on the picket line with the miners during the strike, at 24 I was representing staff in tribunals and hearing within local government and despite my illness I now carry out voluntary work to help people with disabilities appeal benefit decisions to try and insure they receive the benefits to which they are entitled. So just to reiterate my "kind" would be a disabled, left winger who carries out voluntary work while caring for a disabled daughter and dealing with a neurological illness. Guess what I think the NHS would be safe in my hands, so you don't have to take to the streets yet !

Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by Flavian

 

Do you disagree that people need to take more responsibility for their actions?

It is not pertinent to the thread. It is a value judgement that should be discussed in a thread about the ethics and moralities of lifestyles.

Tories always walk in sideways into arguments about the NHS with their disassociate perceptions of others.

How about taxing luxury cars at 100%, second homes, spirits and champagne and multiple holidays to subsidies the NHS some more. I think we ought to double tax the rich, especially bankers.

Of course it is pertinent to the thread. Any savings that can be made would reduce the level of austerity applied. Do you think any government in this country willingly damages the NHS? That is tantamount to political suicide over here. Austerity is being undertaken because the structural deficit was almost at unserviceable levels - that means we very nearly couldn't even meet the interest on our debts. That is a step away from bankruptcy.

I agree about taxes being recouped. Tax dodgers should be jailed and assets should be seized, both personal AND corporate.

Any issue like that is also pertinent to this thread for the very same reasons. The evil Tory argument just makes me laugh to be honest. It is so naive and short sighted.

reply to post by Flavian

Do you think any government in this country willingly damages the NHS? That is tantamount to political suicide over here.

You seriously believe that mate? Most people are too dumb and blind to be even taking any notice. If people are told it is something that has to be done to cut the deficit etc, they believe it as shown through the opinion polls.

Here is what the draft of risk registrar had to say about the bill (a registrar Langsley has not allowed to be released, ridiculous).

A longer term danger to the NHS's ability to cope with emergencies. It said: "The NHS role in emergency preparedness/responsiveness is more difficult to manage through a more devolved organisation, and so emergencies are less well managed/ mitigated."

• Greater costs if new GP-led consortiums make greater use of the private sector. "One example of area where system could be more costly is if GP Consortia makes use of private sector organisations/staff which adds costs to the overall system."

• A danger that the new system is set up too quickly, threatening the running of the NHS.

• A loss of financial control. "Financial control is lost due to the restructuring of budgets distributed between or allocated to organisations within the system [to be clarified]," it said.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Do you still think no political party would dare to damage the NHS? It's already happening.

reply to post by Flavian

Of course it is pertinent to the thread. Any savings that can be made would reduce the level of austerity applied.

Then for the sake of the banker induced austerity, Tories should be encouraged to opt out of the NHS. They should be made to pay their taxes as normal but by Tories opting out of NHS care we can have savings.

Everything you guys are saying on that side of the Atlantic is why I oppose ObamaCare on this side of the Atlantic.

How stupid do we have to be to see someone driving a car off of a cliff and we decide "hey, that looks like a good idea."

Looking at the programs in the UK, one can see where we will be in about 25 years if not sooner...

reply to post by AlreadyGone


Yes. Your health reform looks about as much for the benefit of the taxpayer/consumer as our one. A single payer/ government mandated insurance option was always the way to go in the US but Obama bottled it and the insurance companies did a and a all the way to Goldman Sachs.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


People against the NHS in the UK are on the lunatic fringe.

The NHS is nothing like your so called "Obamacare".

I have been in the US on vacation and had to get an injured foot sorted out. Luckily I had insurance for the trip and the hospital care was good. I noted a few things, the first thing they asked me was if I had a credit card or my insurance details. The doctors and nurses were always up selling my treatment.

I had a sprained ankle with lots of bruising. I knew it was a twisted ankle but went to the hospital to make sure it was not broken by having an x-ray and to get some binding.

In the US hospital, they gave me an MRI, pain killers like you wouldn't believe and they kept me over night! What a waste!!!!

I was walking normally three days later.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady

 

Where has Majel said they support dismantling the NHS? All that was stated is that people need to take responsibility for themselves. People getting too hammered takes up a vast amount of NHS resources and wasn't what Bevan envisaged the NHS would be used for.

Do you disagree that people need to take more responsibility for their actions? Do you think that society should have to pick up the bill for those that get far too hammered for their own good?

People getting hammered IMO is a result of thatchers 'there is no such thing as society' attitude. She destroyed the communities and families that would have taught our young to put others before themselves and encouraged a greed based, look after number one ethos.

cameron has now deprived most of our young of any chance to build a future so no wonder they get hammered.

You also ignore the sporting injuries that fill the waiting rooms every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. The huge number of people with industrial illnesses caused by uncaring profit lead companies. Asbestos is still a huge killer alone.

The NHS has now to care for all the injured, disabled and mentally damaged service men that were sent out to fight wars on the behalf of the very politicians that want to now deny them the care they have earned

There should undoubtedly be investment into preventative care but please stop blaming all the victims of ill health for the position they find themselves in by using a small group.

Also consider how much hidden money the NHS produces by curing people that can then go back to work and produce profits for the very people that want to dismantle it.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
Everything you guys are saying on that side of the Atlantic is why I oppose ObamaCare on this side of the Atlantic.

How stupid do we have to be to see someone driving a car off of a cliff and we decide "hey, that looks like a good idea."

Looking at the programs in the UK, one can see where we will be in about 25 years if not sooner...

To be honest, from what I see of health care in the USA we have nothing at all to learn from you here in the UK.

reply to post by colin42

People getting hammered IMO is a result of thatchers 'there is no such thing as society' attitude. She destroyed the communities and families that would have taught our young to put others before themselves and encouraged a greed based, look after number one ethos. cameron has now deprived most of our young of any chance to build a future so no wonder they get hammered.

The Thatcher/Reagan neo-cons agenda. Blair & co bought into it (at least some of it, they at least continued to fund our public services) allowing the banks to shower them with words of a sustained boom and no more bust as long as you let as do EXACTLY what we want no matter what the risk.

Surely this was the plan? Create a bubble, make money out of the bursting and mop up the remaining public assets as governments(those on the left realising their mistakes in listening to the seductive words from the money markets too late) struggle under the banking jackboot of debt that they created and profit off every day.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk
I have to agree I'm afraid although I do wonder if it was a plan or just the results of the greed of a few that know with enough money there is no situation where they do not win

reply to post by colin42


For me it was quite clearly the plan, at least of those in business and in the banks. More on the decline of public ownership of the NHS and its effects.

Weaknesses in the contracting processes that allows NHS primary care services to be provided by private companies precipitated the closure of a North London GP practice an inquiry has concluded. The Camden Road Surgery closed in April four years after it was taken over by UnitedHealth one of the largest private health companies in the US. The closure left 4,500 patients without a GP. UnitedHealth was awarded five year contracts to run three Camden surgeries in 2008.

But an inquiry by Camden Council found a ‘serious loophole’ in the deal which allowed the surgeries to be sold to another firm , The Practice Plc without any competitive tendering process which is normally the case. The inquiry report said: “The panel were of the view that this was a serious loophole. In our view primary care by GPs should not be a commodity traded in the private market and prompt action should be taken to remedy this.”

The report concluded that the surgery was a “casualty” of the NHS reforms and that a lack of consultation with other GP practices had led to “unnecessary anxiety” among patients.

www.onmedica.com...

The first of many such casualties no doubt.

Originally posted by keldas
The NHS could be quite comfortably funded if they cut back on tax avoidance and ensured that the rich pay their taxes, the tax rate for the rich should be increased as they are making their money off the backs off everyone else. Corporation tax should also be increased.

Wastage in all Government departments should be tackled and they should be more economical with what they buy instead of wasting money.

Taxes should not be increased at all, either for the "rich" or corporations. What they should do is just clamp down on avoidance (such as Vodafone for example) and the tax rates are perfectly fair. Tax avoidance in the UK for 2010 is estimated to have cost the Treasury £95 BILLION. That money could balance the books without any cuts at all. If taxes where any higher it will just drive off companies and the "rich" to somewhere else, leaving us "poor" without any jobs or services as there won't be any taxation.

In a country where we are taxed out of our arses, the answer isn't "more tax". If, with all the money the Government rakes in they still can't balance the books, there is something wrong with the way it is being run. We can see all across Whitehall armies of civil servants who barely do any real work, when compared to a job in the private sector, who in all honesty need a culling.

reply to post by stumason


The Civil Service is an important institution which keeps the wheels of government running. Are there too many civil servants? I don't know.

I am going to keep updating this thread with news about the affects austerity/reform are having on the NHS. Posted on the BBC today on hospital reform in Wales.

The independence of a report calling for controversial changes to hospitals has been questioned after emails emerged between its author and Welsh government officials. The Conservatives say it is "dodgy" and want Health Minister Lesley Griffiths to resign if she knew about the contact. They say the author was pressured to support changes the minister wanted.

The report's author and the government insist the report was independent. Ministers have repeatedly stated that the report - entitled Case For Change - is an impartial academic work which cemented and underpinned their argument for major changes to the NHS. However, questions have been asked since a series of emails emerged in which health economist Professor Marcus Longley asked civil servants for "killer facts" to support the case for changes.

www.bbc.co.uk...

This is definitely not the way to treat working people.

A leaked document shows a group of NHS managers want to force staff to take pay cuts of up to 5 per cent, end overtime payments for working nights, weekends and bank holidays, reduce holiday and introduce longer shifts. NHS bosses from 19 organisations have joined together, in what some have dubbed a ‘pay cartel’, to drive through the changes. It could mean the end of the national contract called Agenda for Change, which saw the majority of health service staff, including nurses, midwives and porters, moved onto a standardised pay scale. Doctors are on different contracts and are not affected.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Iceland Has Hired An Ex-Cop To Hunt Down The Bankers That Wrecked Its Economy

If you were involved in Icelandic high finance in the runup to the recession, you might want to start watching your back.

That's because the government has appointed a white collar crime bounty hunter who wants to haul your behind in (alive, to be sure).

LeMonde reporter Charlotte Chabas has a profile of Ólafur Þór Hauksson, a former local police lieutenant whom the Iceland government appointed to track down individuals likely to have helped sink the country's banking sector during the credit crunch.

www.businessinsider.com... wdHy9

This is what we need to do to the bankers in the UK to pay workers proper wages and to look after the NHS. Those Porches and those pied a terre in Mayfair and mansions in the counties need to be sequestered to compensate the country.

The bounty hunters need to be SAS. No coppers because they are all bent.