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Austerity puts a universal free NHS in doubt - think tank

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Maybe so, but I see you voted for the Tories from the thread on the British army! Its not like they are averse to big business and have a pretty clear disliking for the NHS. A vote for the Tories is a vote against the continuation of the NHS.




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


Not at all. Following that thinking, voting for Labour is voting for the continued degradation of British society, seeing as they openly admitted to social engineering with immigration.... We know it ain't that simple though.

But you and I both know that when you vote, your picking the best of a bad bunch. You cannot possibly agree with everything a particular candidate/party says, but you go for the one you think is the best option.

Considering my options in 2010, it was either continued big spending by Labour as if the crash was not happening, or a vote for the Tories to try and reign in the deficit.

They promised not to cut NHS spending and they have kept to that. Granted, they have slashed and burnt everywhere else and I am totally against this whole NHS reform bill they keep trying to peddle, but they never said anything about destroying the Army or privatising the NHS, these are all idea's that came about after they got in.

I'm as pissed off as the next guy and feel quite betrayed by what the Government has done since 2010, such as their promises of boosting British industry but barely a year in and their giving a massive train contract to the Germans while 1,500 brits are laid off from the last train manufacturer in the country...



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


No, Labour had a sensible plan for dealing with the deficit, over 4 years to cut it by half, rather than this ridiculously unobtainable goal of cutting the whole deficit and front-loading massive amounts of austerity. It hasn't worked.

Did you vote for the Tories because they promised to cut the immigration rate? This also was never going to happen. I didn't vote Labour, but I would not touch those Tory #s with a 25 mile barge pole. Its quite clear they are leaving an almost impossible decision for either themselves if they are re-elected or Labour on how to fund the NHS, letting in the private insurance companies for a much larger slice of the health pie.

The Tory party do not represent the working people of this country. Voting for them is voting against yourself.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


And I (and many others) did not believe that was a credible plan. The same sort of plans haven't worked out so well in Europe, have they? The markets would have had a fit, we would have had increased bond yields, pushing up the cost of borrowing, increasing the deficit further and probably would have had our credit rating cut, like France, pushing up costs even more.

That and I could not stomach another 4-5 years of Gordon Brown... Only a few months before the big crash, he was pontificating about how he was such an economic genius he had made "boom and bust" a thing of the past, when all he had done was defer it and make it worse. With that much egg on his face, coupled with the total arrogance of the party when it came to protecting British interests and the ever pervasisve nanny state they lov e so much put me right off..

Like I said, it isn't a simple case of "I voted Tory because of x"... Lot's of reasons made me switch. I used to vote Labour until they stabbed us in the back in 2005.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Austerity has hardly been given a ringing endorsement by the markets either, look at France and Spain.

The invasion of Iraq turned me against Labour, but I still vote for progressive forward thinking parties such as the Greens, rather than the retrogrades that are the Tories. You didn't have to switch so agressively from Labour to the Tories. Seriously why did you vote for them?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Seriously why did you vote for them?


Now, there is a question I have been asking myself for about 18 months.... Much of what they are doing is not what they said they'd do, although part of the blame has to be damned coalition agreement which tied their hands on pretty much anything, so now we have a weird mix of conservative and liberal idea's giving birth to some twisted, mutant baby...

Our entire system is buggered, to be honest and is not fit for purpose.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


It didn't tie their hands. This is a Conservative government, there are many similarities between both parties both in class and thought.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


Oh, they are tied. On quite a few things actually.

The "coalition agreement" is a big source of tension between the Tories and the Libs, with many tory backbenchers wandering why a party which has less seats now than in the last Parliament has so much sway over policy.

I can guarantee you these defence cuts are because the Libs wouldn't let something else be cut..

But, wither way, none of the fookers will be getting my vote next time round.. It's time we stood up for ourselves instead of playing this stupid game every 4-5 years, so I'm taking matters into my own hands. None of them can be trusted and all of them are incompetent.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Your right about the NHS being too top heavy, there is also a lot of dead wood in the system, people who have become too comfortable with their positions, who no longer have the drive and commitment needed. That is a problem with the mentality of many in the Public sector. As I said I would never want the NHS to be privatised, for obvious reasons, but it could be managed so much better.

From my experience, the consultants and specialists are top notch, you really couldn't ask for more. The aftercare I have received has been 2nd to none, but the management, the general bureaucracy side of things can be terrible and it helps to have someone fighting in your corner when dealing with it all, which shouldn't be the case.

I can't really knock my GP either. I had some terrible ones when I was living in London, both of whom missed my Brain tumor on numerous ocasions. but now I'm back in Oxfordshire I get treated really well at my GP.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:53 AM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk


Any working person who voted for the Tories should be ashamed of themselves.


If you want to play that game.......anyone who voted for the previous Labour Government should be ashamed of themselves for getting us into this mess in the first place.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:54 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


It was interesting to hear on Question Time last night, that the UK has 23,000 civil servants in the MOD, compared to Israel's 400. Again a case of being too top heavy. Civil servants giving themselves and their mates cushy jobs while firing the lower ranks.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


Cannot disagree with that at all. I do not see why so much management is needed in various walks of life though, not just Health and the MOD.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk


Any working person who voted for the Tories should be ashamed of themselves.


If you want to play that game.......anyone who voted for the previous Labour Government should be ashamed of themselves for getting us into this mess in the first place.

I think they are all as bad as each other. I would never vote for Labour again and would never vote Tory. Labour pretty much screwed this country up with it's "light touch" approach to the City of London. The Torries would have done the same, Cameron even said so. But for me it is worse when it happened under a Labour Government, who became comfortable with the super rich, while abandoning their working class roots.

They are all the same, all the leaders look and talk the same, with the same hand gestures and bladdy bladdy blah. It's a Neo Liberal consensus, with no other alternatives being presented.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:06 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


I don't mind you asking, but didn't want to derail your thread.

I Have MRI scans twice a year or whenever I feel I might need one, 3 month appointments with Oncologist, bi annual appointment with endocrinologist. Every 3 months blood test and hormone injection at GP surgery. I've been costing the NHS a fortune for the last decade. I can't help it if they keep on keeping me alive.

I can understand young and healthy people thinking they will never need the health service and begrudge paying for others, but you never know when you might need it. It certainly wasn't part of my lifes plan.
edit on 5-7-2012 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)


The austerity cuts to the NHS are also parts of the cuts to the sick and disabled and all have a bad knock on effect on each other. If you want to help a little bit please google Pat's Petition which is asking for a pause to the cuts to disabilities and services and to discuss it again.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:08 AM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


The NHS could be quite comfortably funded if they cut back on tax avoidance and ensured that the rich pay their taxes, the tax rate for the rich should be increased as they are making their money off the backs off everyone else. Corporation tax should also be increased.

Wastage in all Government departments should be tackled and they should be more economical with what they buy instead of wasting money.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:09 AM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


I don't mind you asking, but didn't want to derail your thread.

I Have MRI scans twice a year or whenever I feel I might need one, 3 month appointments with Oncologist, bi annual appointment with endocrinologist. Every 3 months blood test and hormone injection at GP surgery. I've been costing the NHS a fortune for the last decade. I can't help it if they keep on keeping me alive.

I can understand young and healthy people thinking they will never need the health service and begrudge paying for others, but you never know when you might need it. It certainly wasn't part of my lifes plan.
edit on 5-7-2012 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



You situation is an argument why we should always have an NHS.

I don't mind paying my taxes to help keep the NHS going because I could end up in the same situation as you.

From time to time a Tory spills the beans and lets on how they want to take apart the NHS. Remember that the NHS was a gift and entitlement to the British people for their sacrifices in WW2.

If the Tories FXck with the NHS, I will FXck with Tories and so help me God.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:10 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


I see you point but i actually slightly disagree. The main problem, as i see it, with modern politics in this country is that very few politicians have any notion of the "real" world. Career politicians start young and gain no real world experience before they are supposed to make decisions that affect everyone who has to live in the "real world". How is that possible?

Then there are the lawyers / solicitors / barristers that take up Parliament. If you make your cash through the law, then implementing new laws is only ever self serving (even if those laws are needed).

I could go on but basically Parliament needs a make over. Each party needs proper representation and clear distinctions between them.

I would to have say though that this particular government is Coalition, not Conservative. No one won a clear majority so no party has a monopoly on policies going through Parliament.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:43 AM
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The NHS is under stress for many reasons, bad management, poor infrastructure, new expensive treatments that could not even be imagined when it was founded in 1948, in fact too many to list here. As another person who owes their continuing existence to NHS care the thought that the free service we all use could be withdrawn is truly frightening BUT there does need to be a radical overhaul of how we use the service and what our expectations should be.

My daughter was a Nurse (until she had a serious accident) so she has experience of the NHS from both providing care and receiving it and she tells me that staff moral on the wards is lower than it has been in decades. One of the major problems of providing free care is that it takes away any personal responsibility that people may feel for their own health and care and needs. My daughter spent way too much time treating drunks who thought that it was their right to be nursed by the NHS because they simply drink too much, they tended to be young (under 25), employed (they need disposable income to be able to afford to spend £60+ on a night out) and have a feeling of entitlement that because they are working and paying tax they can abuse to NHS as much as they want (apparently one of the favourite comments can be "I pay your wages", in between bouts of unconsciousness, vomiting and trying to fight off staff who are trying to help them). At the other end of the scale she had elderly patients who needed help and care but did not like to ask because they did not want to be a nuisance to staff and remembered what life was like before the NHS and really appreciated everything that was done for them.

I had to take my Dad to A&E because of a trapped nerve in his back and he was unable to move. The lady who was checking in in front of us was there because she had damaged her false nail and wanted it removed as it was now hurting her nail bed. She sat in the waiting room talking loudly on her phone to her friend complaining that she had already been to one hospital and after being told she faced a 4 - 6 hour wait to be seen she told them they could "f*** that" and came here instead, she then explained that she had contacted the salon where she had the nails put on and they had told her it would cost £25 to have them removed, so she came to A&E instead !

As a nation we need to decide if we are going to continue to offer free treatment to everyone or if we have to take some very tough decisions and start insisting that people begin to take some responsibility for their own health and actions. The problem is that if we start down that road where do we stop ?

Personally I think that the money we spend sending troops overseas and the disgusting amount we have spent on the vanity of the Olympics would have benefited the Country much more if we used it to set up drunk tanks in towns where people could be treated after nights out and in overhauling the management of the NHS once and for all. The NHS is a huge organisation that for the most part provides excellent care for the people of this Country but we cannot carry on financing it the way it is structured at the moment.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 04:53 AM
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reply to post by majel42
 





One of the major problems of providing free care is that it takes away any personal responsibility that people may feel for their own health and care and needs.


This is the crux of your argument. You believe a significant number of people do not take personal responsibility for their health and needs, no doubt unlike you.

Clearly you are indifferent to the life experiences, misfortunes and mistakes of others so you want to dismantle the NHS starting with little adjustments at first.

Fortunately you and your kind cannot get away with attacking the NHS.

You think that dismantling the NHS is an option. You think you can have an opinion about getting rid of it. It will never happen and millions of Brits will not allow it.

If it goes to the streets, then Tories will be dealt with.
edit on 6-7-2012 by Ilovecatbinlady because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:06 AM
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reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady
 


Where has Majel said they support dismantling the NHS? All that was stated is that people need to take responsibility for themselves. People getting too hammered takes up a vast amount of NHS resources and wasn't what Bevan envisaged the NHS would be used for.

Do you disagree that people need to take more responsibility for their actions? Do you think that society should have to pick up the bill for those that get far too hammered for their own good?






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