Police Attempt To Raid Garage Sale with AirSoft gear, Get Kicked To Curb (video)

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by axslinger
 

End of discussion they had probable cause and an object was in plain sight that looked to be like a gun. Therefore the cops were not in the wrong. End of discussion.




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by denynothing
 


guns arent illegal, so youre right end of discussion, the cops were in the wrong.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by denynothing
 


That is correct, even if you had a pipe bomb in your driveway the police would need a pair of binoculars to confirm, because police have horrible judgement, and they would need a warrant. the real crime here is the human right violations, quit being an anti freedom lover, stick up for yourself or go to a fema camp you puss.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by axslinger

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Djayed

Even if they were real M4's it is private property and they need a warrant to search.


Not if it has been opened to the general public.


If the cops are there in the in the course of duty, they aren't the public, they are cops.


They have not given any of their rights up to be cops, so they don't have any less rights than you or I. If WE can be there, they can, too.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:09 AM
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i dunno i am a gun nut and own several of them, as well as several airsofts...i think the officers handled it well....i kind of think the lady over reacted IMO



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by atsbansrealppl
 


Well yes and no, you can't own a .50 cal submachine gun, you can own a hand gun or a shot gun. However guns do scare people and a person has every right to call the cops and the cops must investigate. People have stated on here that is illegal to sell the exact guns that these air soft guns looked like. Therefore from the outside an illegal was going on thus probable cause.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by atsbansrealppl
 


First of all smearing all of the police is not a logical argument, second calling me a puss is not a logical argument. Thats good we got that out of the way. Third, no they wouldn't they would probable cause to walk onto my driveway and look at said object to confirm it is safe. This however does not give them the right to come into my house or take any other property I have. Finally, anything that is in open view is subject to search by a police officer, once again I bring up the example of a party where alcohol and drugs paraphernalia are openly visible and the blinds are open. A cop could simply walk up to the door and say "I see drugs I have the right to enter your premises" Or if the cop comes to the door and you open the door and drugs are openly visible said cop would have probable cause and the legal right to enter and search the house. I do believe there is no fema camp near me so I'll sit tight at my house.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


While I understand where you are coming from:
"Probable cause is where known facts and circumstances, of a reasonably trustworthy nature, are sufficient to justify a man of reasonable caution or prudence in the belief that a crime has been or is being committed." is the usual textbook definition. Given California law in regards to the sale of firearms, and given the fact what looked to be like firearms were on the table at a yard sale, it certainly is probable cause.

It's a yard sale, tables of things all being sold. What looks to be like firearms are on said table. Selling firearms without a license is illegal in California. Does that not suggest a law is actively being broken? Given THAT information, I don't see how the definition of probable cause isn't met. If he saw this, walked up and saw a firearm with a price tag on it, this person was actively breaking the law. He had probable cause based on what was reported and what he saw.

I also can understand what you're saying about federal enforcement, but this wasn't JUST a matter of an unlicensed dealer. The weapons themselves, if they had been real, would likely have broken numerous laws in California in terms of restrictions. (High capacity mags and things of that nature) But I didn't bring that up before as it's not really relevant to this case since they were just airsoft guns.

The plain view doctrine would still need probable cause that it was evidence of a crime or an illegal item itself. So either way, you need probable cause. For a second lets assume the gun looks like a California legal firearm. Stand alone, the plain view doctrine wouldn't apply as the item is legal. However, there were reports of firearms being sold, which is an illegal act in California. Then upon arrival, the officer can see these items are on a table as part of a yard sale. Given the circumstance, the officer NOW has probable cause that a crime is being committed and can go inspect said items.

My understanding of the plain view doctrine is for when you see something where the item ITSELF causes a reasonable person to believe the subject has committed a crime. If somebody gets pulled over and there's a pound of illegal drugs in the back seat in plain view, this would be an instance of plain view doctrine because that's clearly contraband. In this case though, even if probable cause DIDN'T hold up, plain view doctrine would as the rifles clearly would have been suspect of breaking California's laws regarding high capacity magazines (the hanging assault rifle would have qualified for that one from a distance) as well as other laws I'm sure.

Anyway, the point is, he had both. Probable cause in regards to selling firearms illegally AND plain view doctrine of suspect California illegal weapons if he really wanted to go there.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by atsbansrealppl
guns arent illegal, so youre right end of discussion, the cops were in the wrong.


Single worst argument I've seen in this thread. The guns, if they were actual guns, likely WOULD have been illegal in California for starters. Next, selling even legal firearms in California is illegal. So if that gun were real, you would of had multiple laws being broken. When it comes to probable cause, there doesn't need to be certainty, so end of discussion, get a better argument.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:50 AM
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To clear up a few things....

Private property (whether its a residence or a store in a mall) - The owners / person who legally controls the property do not have to have a reason to ask an individual to leave. Regardless if the property is private but open to the public (mall / Hospital etc). If a person who lawfully controls the property says to leave, then you must leave. Refusal can result in arrest for trespassing. In my state a person can use whatever force neccissary, excluding death, to remove a person from their property who refuses to leave.

With that being said, the same can apply to law enforcement who are NOT responding to a call. If they are present due to call / invesitgation, they cannot be forced to leave and its not trespassing.

Secondly - Probable Cause.
PC is needed to make an arrest / apply for a search warrant. People are skipping over the term that comes just before PC, which is reasonable suspicion. To help those understand the difference who arent familiar -

A police officer who observes a vehicle swerving over the center and fog lines, inconsistent speeds, no head lights etc, has reasonable suspicion a crime is taking place and based on those observations can initiate a traffic stop. During the officers contact with te individual, an investigation is being conducted to determine what is going on. The investigation will lead to 2 possible conclusion -

* - The driver of the vehicle is impaired based on the evidence present (SFST's / smells / actions of the driver etc).

* - The driver is a bad driver or is undergoing a medical situation, like ketoacidosis (diabetic condition that mimics alcohol intoxication very very closely).

The results of the above moves the officer from reasonable suspicion to probable cause as the driver broke the law. We can then make an arrest however we must submit our report / PC to the city prosecutor or the PA for the county, depending on what the person was charged with. In my state a person can be held for 24 hours at which point, if no charges are filed, the person must be relased from jail. The actual filing of charges resides solely with the PA.

Using the yard sale, and someone else brought up the possibility, the police received a call or drove by and saw the items in plain sight. In California (I linked to the CA law) you must have a certificate tio purchase a ffirearm and if you are selling you must be a licensed dealer / fill out and submit paperwork while entering the purchasers name for the background check.

The officer had reasonable suspicion a crime was taking place. That leads to contact to see exactly what is being sold and the subsequent investigation as to whether or not a crime is taking place. Based on a myriad of possibilities, had the owners violated the law, the officer could have shut the garage sale down, seized the illegal items and detained the owners until a warrant can be obtained to lawfully search.

The Supreme Court has ruled time and again that law enforcement can secure evidence if their is a possibility the evidence could be tampered with / destroyed prior to the arrival of a warrant. The same holds for a house, where law enbforcement can enter, detain people inside nd secure the premisis while waiting for a search warrant to arrive.

Law enforcement can NOT search for evidence until the warrant arrives. They can only secure the people and ensure there is no one hiding / other dangers present to the officers.

In this case, the officers were within the law, both state and federal.
The lady, by her own words and actions, baited the police in order to get a reaction out of them because she hates all law enforcement.

The lady and guy arguing with the police are not correct in their view of the law.

ETA from a comment in the post above.

California gun control laws are strict. California actually has laws that detemine what type of guns / accessories are legal in the state or illegal in the state for possession use and buying and selling.

In this case the right to bear arms is applied to the individuals through 2 supreme court rulings (DC and Chicago). Like travel within a state and across state lines, the act of owning a gun is protected however the type of gun available to buy can be regulated. A person has a right to freely travel within a state or across state lines, however the manner of travel is not a protected right.

IE if you dont like the TSA you are more than welcome to walk, run, jog, take a bus etc to get to your destination.
edit on 6-7-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I am pretty sure from this, we can conclude that the cops were not infringing upon a citizens rights by being on the property. Thanks for posting all this info.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I am pretty sure from this, we can conclude that the cops were not infringing upon a citizens rights by being on the property. Thanks for posting all this info.


Thank you for taking the time to read it. I get where people are coming from when it comes to law enforcement. There are people I work with whom I would prefer stay away from my investigations / calls.

I enjoy these threads as it allows people to ask questions or challenge the process. It also allows me to have a better idea on how to speak to and deal with people who are of the same mindset as some people on here. It gives me the ability to recognize the mindset and to take some extra time to better explain the ins and outs to the person im dealing with.

I dont expect them to change their minds but if it allows a better understanding of where I am coming from, it opens the possibility of better communications between myself and the citizens I serve. I prefer for people to ask questions than to just have a blanket opinion. I would prefer to take the extra time to explain something rather than constantly responding to the same location with the same people all because of a break down in communications and how a law works and why.

I have found conversation and explanation (when appropriate) goes a lot farther to correcting he behavior than writing a person 6 tickets while being an ass in the process.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:07 AM
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LMAO, airsoft? Really?

Ok then.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Ben81
 


These people should learn how the law works before telling the police how to do their job. Under California law a person must have a handgun safety certificate in order to purchase a gun. Secondly in order to sell a gun in California a perosn must be a licensed dealer and the guns being sold must comply with california law (types of guns allowed to be sold).

Any sale / purchase of a gun in California requires a manatory 10 day waiting period. Airsoft guns that are .177 are generally included in a states gun laws.



Airsoft does not equal airgun. I don't know of many (if any) .177 airsoft guns. Most are 6mm or in some cases 8mm. They shoot plastic spherical pellets. There are many airsoft stores in California, and those stores will sell to anyone 18 and over, including across state lines. I don't know anyone who has had to wait 10 days for an airsoft gun. I do not know of any requirement to purchase airsoft guns through a FFL (except maybe in case of certain gas blow back rifle that the BATFE modified to fire 3 rounds of real ammo. Of course this is the same BATFE that made shoe strings illegal for a short while as well.). So please, keep airguns/pellet guns separate from airsoft guns.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:14 AM
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reply to post by Nemo418
 


Which is why I made the distinction with individual state laws and .177. California gun laws are one of the strictest in the nation. Regardless if they are airsoft, bb or actual guns, they are guns until the officer concludes his inquiry and determines one way or the other.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:19 AM
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reply to post by Sek82
 


I think you are harboring illegal immigrants in your house. I shall call the cops and you will let them violate your rights.

Yes?

That's the story you're telling.

Anyone can use the police to become a de facto harassment agency, if you allow them to impinge on your rights.

And if they are derelict in their attendance to this house or these people, then they should not be officers in the first place. They should be held accountable for neglect.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by atsbansrealppl
guns arent illegal, so youre right end of discussion, the cops were in the wrong.


Single worst argument I've seen in this thread. The guns, if they were actual guns, likely WOULD have been illegal in California for starters. Next, selling even legal firearms in California is illegal. So if that gun were real, you would of had multiple laws being broken. When it comes to probable cause, there doesn't need to be certainty, so end of discussion, get a better argument.


guns are illegal in cali?

what happened to your precious constitution and freedom?



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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The new front page here SUCKS ASS! Who the # thought this was a good idea?????



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by mainidh
 


Calling 911 and giving information that is false is a criminal offense.

In this case the call they received stated there were guns being sold at a garage sale. The Police responded and in fact, airsoft guns were being sold. In this case the call was valid, the police responded, dealt with 2 people who have no idea how the law or their rights work, determined no crime was taking place, and left.

reply to post by dmsuse
 


How about you try reading the thread first, maybe start with the first post that contains the info on what the thread is about, before making a comment that has nothing to do with the topic?
edit on 6-7-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 03:47 AM
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Originally posted by EnigmaticDill
reply to post by Mclaneinc
 


Just stop you can try to pull the wool over people's eyes all you want until you deal with psychopath cops yourself. As I myself have on may occasions.

They came up on to THEIR land by THEIR CHILDREN and started touching THEIR property without even a how do you do.

Im sorry but not everyone lives in your world.


1. They explained why they were there

2. You ignore the fact that it was easier to deal with the cops

3. The woman and man obviously have a long history with these Police, her problem is she does not like cops.

4. The cops were NOT doing anything wrong, they have a right to search.

5. Psychopath cops?? At what point in the video did you see that?

6. The above statement and other words prove you have an issue with the Police, its ok 'in your world' to paint every cop a psycho and part of the 'control system' but you know what, there are cops out there who actually enjoy their job and have pride in protecting people, people like you tar and feather them for no reason other than your fear of TPTB.

Or, do you have something you don't like the cops seeing?

7. I've seen a lot of people on other threads show despise for the cops but when you have a look at them more closely you find out things like they grow weed etc and believe in the same mind set of the people who pitch up in OWS type places not to protest but to just have a pop at people and make a tip of the place while getting off their faces with their buddies..

Odd that they dislike the Police eh ?

8. The fact is there was a report of a real gun being sold, there were kids about so there's both a safety issue and a possible unlicensed gun yet all these people could do was wallow in their anti system ideals.

Great parents...

Sorry, 'in your world' the cops are all 'jive ass pigs' looking to beat down on the poor man, shame so many die in the line of duty trying to protect people including you.

Get a grip...The world is a sad and bad place, yes people are on the take, yes your government isn't looking after you the way it should but just labelling ordinary men and women who daily put their life on the line with a blanket 'psychopath' banner is simply deluded. For the most part the Police are just ordinary people who do a pretty tough job to pay the bills, they have no secret agenda and yes you will get the odd cop with an attitude but you have to balance that with the s**t they get daily from the general public.

Swings and roundabouts...
edit on 6-7-2012 by Mclaneinc because: (no reason given)



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