Gobekli Tepe-Bull Geoglyph (?)

Wayne Herschel has made the suggestion that there is a giant bull geoglyph at the Gobekli Tepe site, that in the context of this the stone circles/temples would be associate with the Pleides.


His webpage on this;


thehiddenrecords.com...


And video;





For my part, regarding the probability and potential implications of such, i can point out that another site of the core Neolithic region, Djade al Mughara in Syria of a similar date to Gobekli Tepe, was apparantly constructed in the shape of a large bulls head, from this page and translation,


Djade al Mugarah


Google Translate...




Previous campaigns had leads to the release of the paintings that cover a portion of the walls of a vast building for a community ("community building") of which the plan is fully unique, with a massive radial which has the symbolic form of a head of "bull" whose muzzle is painted, while the rounded cells adjacent . would form the horns with a span of about 8 m


So one sees that for the period and region it is not unthinkable that planning could have such a symbolic basis, unfortunately there is no ground plan or overall site photograph publicly available for this construction, as far as i am aware.

Whilst i do think there is some merit in Herschels bull geoglyph suggestion, his attempts to contextualize this i wouldn't neccesarily agree with...


I was just wondering though what others might make of this.


The implications of such a design i feel would be considerable, in that it would pre-date by millenia the Sumerian and Semitic associations of the Bull of Heaven and their iconography of the Celestial gates related to such.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

One very intriguing aspect of this for me is that what one appears to be seeing at Gobekli Tepe is the formative basis for the cosmology evidenced in later Sumeria and other Near Eastern cultures, the demarcation of gates, transition points across the horizon, in terms of the megaliths set facing each other.

Obviously one would expect that to relate to the Geo-centric model, and thus if they represented stars, the Pleiades, i would find that very surprising.


The 'baskets' one sees carved are the earliest representation of what became a common Near Eastern motif, and recent evidence has emerged which suggests these relate to the axis across the horizon, in terms of the arc/'handle'.






www.abovetopsecret.com...


The three 'baskets' would relate to the gates across the horizon at the two solstices and the equinox point due East/West.


The question of what those baskets represented was raised on this thread here, but like i said there is definitive evidence available to explain them as relating to transition across the horizon.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

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I want to see a Hi Def photo with better lighting on the Gates at the top ..

This is awesome stuff ... The symbols are consistent with Sumeria and Egypt .

This is the missing link at the end of the Ice Age

The symbolism indicates a cohesive progression

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reply to post by R0CR13




The 'missing link' with regards to what the 'basket' iconography represented has been found at Jiroft, dating back around 5,000 years;







There one sees the symbolism of the two mountains of the horizon, the bull of Heaven placed either side, and the winding serpent connecting the two mountains through the lower regions, the arc/handle representing the arc of the sky.

not realy adding much here
just posting the vid from my sig!
12,000-13,000 years old!

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reply to post by Kantzveldt


THX for the very nice pic I save all these ...

You obviously look at a lot of this imagery do you get that common thread of cohesiveness of the whole thing ...
That seems to be repeating over and over again ?

The reason I ask about hi def image from Gobekli is I think there are finer images inside that are not clear enough to discern .

If there are they should be cataloged ASAP .... before exposure takes its tool ...

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reply to post by R0CR13




Yes i have just about arrived at a cohesive reconstruction of the earliest cosmology, i need to put together then frame whatever questions are raised and answered.

I want to answer here the questions you raised here meantime;


www.abovetopsecret.com...



The premise you, and others, have raised, is that is this a question of later cultures replacing what was essentialy representations of a technology based belief system with that of mythology.

I don't believe that is the case, the cosmology i outline is inter-related to natural cycles of rebirth, transition through the underworld, to have power over death and life eternal, the staples of mythology and religion.

A question that remains open for me though is was the basic cosmological mechanics of this belief system bestowed upon makind from elsewhere, and do the principles involved have other application, for example, the Mountain of Light, at worlds end, the pyramid, the ziggurat, passageway into the underworld or stairway into the Heavens was based upon the zodiacal light phenomena.


www.abovetopsecret.com...


The zodiacal light is of course diffuse dust particles reflecting sunlight along the ecliptic plane, and yet this ethereal shimmering light phenomena inspired the most monumental and solid constructions of mankind, and what could be read into this is that the nature of the rebirth transition, the passing through from one horizon to another will involve this breakdown into particles of light.

You brought up Tanit iconography;









The triangle there represents the zodiacal light, the concern here is always with transition across horizons, the columns at either side are based upon the Sumerian glyph for 'Nun' or Lady, in that the Lady of Heaven, Innana/Ishtar/Tanit was always the primary symbol for such, based upon the planet Venus' close relationship to sunrise/sunset, transition from darkness to light, night/day.

The glyph for 'Nun' may be based upon sightline markers for observing Venus transition across the horizon.

The transition across the arc of the skies will have related bird symbolism as seen above, also seen of course in conjunction with the zig-zags at Gobekli Tepe, and the transition through the underworld had serpent related iconography, thus one see's from Jiroft early representations of a Deity thus;







Going back to the consideration then of technology or mythology, as seen the transition through the horizons was based upon a symbol that involves light reflecting particles forming a suggestion of a wondrous mountain, the transition through the underworld involved inter-twined and connecting serpents, wurm holes if one adopts the Germanic, were matter has been broken down into its basic constituent particles to be reformed upon arrival at some distant horizon;







One see's then that in this thought system there is the potential for it to be interpreted in terms of portals were matter is broken down into constituent particles and translated though interconnecting wurm-holes to distant horizons, whilst the iconography is also a cohesive cosmological metaphor for natural rebirth cycles, a thought system of considerable depth...and thus mysteries continue to delight...and if one wishes to travel through those serpents be prepared to shed your skin.

reply to post by Kantzveldt


The 2 pictures you have in you post, is that writing that's on the stones? If so what writing is it and has it been deciphered yet? Is there a translation available?

reply to post by jrmcleod



The cult of Tanit was Phonecian, which i would assume the script to be, and thus yes probably translated, though i don't have such at hand.


The Tanit stones were commonly used as burial markers, as this is rebirth iconography, so it could relate to the individual buried, this site gives the gist of what was written on Tanit stones;


www.cartage.org.lb...

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reply to post by Kantzveldt



I enjoy you take on this subject ..relating to gates that is why I refer to T Towsend Browns research ...
This is one of the the main guy associated with the infamous Philadelphia experiment .
And his published research into the physics support this direction ...

Now with the NASA findings to support this idea in function it is becoming more likely that my scenario could be achieved ...

That would mean your gates could be Gates .. I know how far fetched this sounds but there is evidence that leads us in that direction ..

I believe that the "myth" is factual in a sense ... although I get what you are saying about certain aspects of it .. I think you have to go back further to see the connection . The Sumerian and the Egyptian both state the purpose of their temples .and the symbolism at Gobekli is definitely tied into these later attempts at reconstruction ..imho

Have you read this ? ..
www.scribd.com...


And this is the the earliest known exhibit of the technology .. imho the has to be 15,000 years plus .






I know most continue to ignore and attempt to discredit this find ... but

I have compiled a list of know observations of this object and it is not our tech .


I still love the Pics Thx ..

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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
Yes i have just about arrived at a cohesive reconstruction of the earliest cosmology, i need to put together then frame whatever questions are raised and answered.

If I were you I'd be less quick about patching together a 'cosmology' for these cultures.

We've so far excavated about 5% of Gobleki Tepe and there's still lots to learn (we've so far excavated roughly 80% of Pompeii and we still learn new things about that culture). If in the future we dig out a contemporary 20 room apartment complex in downtown LA, and in the one room we excavate we find the head of a Buddha, do we have enough knowledge of the cultural markers in order to say - based on that find - that 21st century West Coast American cosmology was Buddhist?

The bull was certainly part of these people's cosmology. If we look at what all the early neolithic people had in common was a need to depict the fauna in the world they lived. This is evident in the early cave art of Europe (Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, etc), it continues in more complex neolithic cultures such as Gobleki Tepe and Dja'de, and is continued in later neolithic cultures such as Catal Huyuk. Then it is carried on to antique 'civilisations' such as the Sumerians, the Indus Valley civilisation and the Egyptians... not to mention the Minoans, the Canaanites, the Greeks, etc.

The bull has a central role in the neolithic animal cosmology for sure. I can only speculate as to why bulls had characteristics that appealed to these people.

It's a big, strong and potentially dangerous animal that invokes respect and has a sense of drama (seeing a massive bull kick up dust is something).
It also invokes respect as the guardian of the herd.

So it is powerful and protective, which I suppose are two main attributes that men of all ages like to project onto themselves.

In all these cultures mentioned, from the early neolithic cave murals to Greek mythology, we find anthropomorphic figures as well, and personally I find them more interesting than the bull depictions if we're talking cosmology.

Why, because there are no other known function of the anthropomorphic figure than shamanic.

Shamanism is the fundamental relationship between man and elements in nature that can be defined as spiritual or supernatural. It is therefore the basis for all sectarian or religious beliefs in supernatural entities.

We find these anthropomorphic figures in Gobleki Tepe in the shape of the great, decorated pillars. Those who have been excavated are T-shaped stone blocks that carry 'human' attributes such as arms, belts equipped with belt buckles and decorations on the belt in form of H- and C-shaped symbols. Loincloth (fox pelt) depicted in relief cut out of the stone is hanging down, covering the genital region. Who are these entities represented in 20 ton stone blocks? The 'Giants' of ancient days?

reply to post by R0CR13



The sribd link is a good resume of the greater world cultural perspective, thanks, it can be noted from there that the Gobekli Tepe stone also in conjunction with the gateway/baskets has two of the markers of such 'ladders', namely the zig-zag pattern and the reeds which in some cultures form the material of the ladder.


There is no doubt that such gateways and ladders were associated with the ascent/descent of Deities from the Heavens to Earth, or that 'hero' type figures could also utilise them, or that when the symbolism is that of the mountain the same can occur, so as we noted one either takes that only in a mythological/cosmological sense for which the case can be readily made, or consider that the form these developments took could have derived from a technologicaly advanced race using portal methodology.

reply to post by Heliocentric

If I were you I'd be less quick about patching together a 'cosmology' for these cultures.

We've so far excavated about 5% of Gobleki Tepe and there's still lots to learn (we've so far excavated roughly 80% of Pompeii and we still learn new things about that culture). If in the future we dig out a contemporary 20 room apartment complex in downtown LA, and in the one room we excavate we find the head of a Buddha, do we have enough knowledge of the cultural markers in order to say - based on that find - that 21st century West Coast American cosmology was Buddhist?

You can only ever go with the available evidence, if something later emerges to cause re-assesment then fine, that's the way of things. I don't think one has to worry too much though at Gobekli Tepe about cross cultural confusions as in what you suggest...

The bull was certainly part of these people's cosmology. If we look at what all the early neolithic people had in common was a need to depict the fauna in the world they lived. This is evident in the early cave art of Europe (Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, etc), it continues in more complex neolithic cultures such as Gobleki Tepe and Dja'de, and is continued in later neolithic cultures such as Catal Huyuk. Then it is carried on to antique 'civilisations' such as the Sumerians, the Indus Valley civilisation and the Egyptians... not to mention the Minoans, the Canaanites, the Greeks, etc.

The bull has a central role in the neolithic animal cosmology for sure. I can only speculate as to why bulls had characteristics that appealed to these people.

It's a big, strong and potentially dangerous animal that invokes respect and has a sense of drama (seeing a massive bull kick up dust is something).
It also invokes respect as the guardian of the herd.

So it is powerful and protective, which I suppose are two main attributes that men of all ages like to project onto themselves.

There is a disparity between Gobekli Tepe and cave art in that the fauna depicted for the greater part, the majority motif being that of the serpent, was not hunted, spiders for example. A good case can be made for the baskets/zig-zag/reed stone being related to the cosmological model, and thus the associated fauna astrological motifs.

The bull and its attributes did translate widely into metaphor and folklore, the question is though at what date did it become an astrological motif, certainly at least 5,000 years ago in the Near East, whether earlier at Gobekli Tepe the case being put forward for consideration here...

In all these cultures mentioned, from the early neolithic cave murals to Greek mythology, we find anthropomorphic figures as well, and personally I find them more interesting than the bull depictions if we're talking cosmology.

Why, because there are no other known function of the anthropomorphic figure than shamanic.

Shamanism is the fundamental relationship between man and elements in nature that can be defined as spiritual or supernatural. It is therefore the basis for all sectarian or religious beliefs in supernatural entities.

We find these anthropomorphic figures in Gobleki Tepe in the shape of the great, decorated pillars. Those who have been excavated are T-shaped stone blocks that carry 'human' attributes such as arms, belts equipped with belt buckles and decorations on the belt in form of H- and C-shaped symbols. Loincloth (fox pelt) depicted in relief cut out of the stone is hanging down, covering the genital region. Who are these entities represented in 20 ton stone blocks? The 'Giants' of ancient days?

Yes the pillars were anthropomorphic;







It's generally considered that what one sees here is the first 'Temple', whats less considered is that a temple essentialy was the home provided for a Deity (or Deities), thus this is the first model of houses purpose built for Gods to live in.

It might also be considered that when the 'Gods' were no longer percieved to be around their houses were filled in to preserve them. Of course nowadays people would think of this in terms of a Deity being omnipresent in a spiritual sense, and would never consider that they had left the building, as it were.

Beliefs generally fall into decline or are replaced with outside influences, such that Temples fall into decay or are demolished or adopted for updated beliefs, but these weren't the case at Gobekli Tepe.

The reason for the extreme abstraction of the anthropomorphic pillars can perhaps only be understood in terms of an obscure geometric/numeric formula sourced from ancient Egypt with regards to the numerics of celestial portals...

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reply to post by Kantzveldt


Wow thanks that is so great to hear ...

I think what we have here is the case for crustal plasticity in the central Atlantic region that led to the subsidence of those island masses described in the texts .

Consider that civilization may have been thousands of years old at the time of the cataclysms atrophy may have set in due to the technology being very stable ,,

All of a sudden you have to relocate we read of these relocation and attempts from the Mayan and the Greeks .

Say the ability to produce the key components are lost so you have to scavenge what you can... that to me is where we get Sumeria and Egypt ...
a legacy of attempts to harness the power again and while they worked for a time All ended in cataclysmic events ...as evidenced by the descriptions of Marduk and Tiamat and the destruction of the Tower ...
remember the bible account when the tower was whole ... the World had a unified language and peace reigned ..
In Egypt the evidence of a possible explosion in the Ark room (kings) ..probable failures to control the amount of energy tapped or released as the final vestiges of an ancient technology faded away ...

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reply to post by R0CR13




I believe that Plutarch and his work 'Isis and Osiris' may rather hold the key to understanding the mysteries of Gobekli Tepe, rather than Plato and his tales of Atlantis, as he recounts a mathamatical tradition which can be sourced back to the Egyptian Old Kingdom, and is the only reason available for the particularity of the stones at Gobekli Tepe.


This is what he wrote;

The Egyptians have a legend that the end of Osiris's life came on the seventeenth of the month, on which day it is quite evident to the eye that the period of the full moon is over Because of this the Pythagoreans call this day "the Barrier," and utterly abominate this number. For the number seventeen, coming in between the square sixteen and the oblong rectangle eighteen, which, as it happens, are the only plane figures that have their perimeters equal their areas, bars them off from each other and disjoins them, and breaks up the ratio of eight to eight and an eighth by its division into unequal intervals

www.mindserpent.com...



and this is how that looks in diagram;






The monoliths of Gobekli Tepe encode this tradition, generally in the form of 3x2 horizontal upper sections and 2x4 vertical lower sections, the reasoning behind this and how it was correspondant to a gateway on the horizon on a particular day, the Feast of Wagy for Osiris, i explained in greater context here,


www.abovetopsecret.com...






More generally, 16 and 18 represent solutions (x=4, y=4) and (x=3, y=6) of the hyperbolic equation

xy = 2x + 2y

which in modern terms has an infinity of solutions; Plutarch is saying that (x=4, y=4), (x=3, y=6), and (x=6, y=3) are the only integral solutions. To his positive solutions we would add today three more, at (x=0, y=0), (x=1, y=-2) and (x=-2, y=1): they are symmetrical to Plutarch's set with respect to the two asymptotes, and in terms of geometry represent one null and two imaginary rectangles. In theory, to find any others we are suddenly transported into the very difficult realm of Diophantine equations; but that these are the only five integral solutions can be seen instantly by inspecting the graph. Plutarch's square, and one of his two symmetrical rectangles, are shaded






I believe then that a case can be made for the rationale for the stone symbolism of Gobekli Tepe surviving through into cultures such as ancient Egypt, through to the time of Plutarch and beyond, that this rationale was based on parabolic equations and their relationship to the horizon, and the conic magic moutain of the zodiacal light...

reply to post by Kantzveldt

Nice!
And I mean it!

A

reply to post by Kantzveldt


KA symbols on web site are great.