It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


"It's a boson:" Higgs quest bears new particle

page: 2
<< 1   >>

log in


posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 08:33 PM
reply to post by jimmyx

First of all, governments have never been in place to ensure the stability of the people. Stop kidding yourself. It is about nothing more than telling you what is in their best interest.(And even then, only at the behest of their puppet masters). As for practical applications, this line of study is on the verge of proving that the universe in which we reside, is a single moving entity that we are all a part of. That even what we perceive as vast, empty space, is filled with innumerable, vibrating components that connect everything! Will that put an end to war? Probably not! But it will prevent the evil ones from using spirituality to brainwash the weaker minded into fighting for their cause. Well worth the beans in my opinion!

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 08:41 PM
reply to post by Eaglehart

They have us incheck mate with this kind of tech. How are suppose to prevent it from being ised for evil purposes did you ever.see.the move timecop? I know what this kind of tech is really going to be used.for.
edit on 4-7-2012 by 2012zeropointeventhorizon because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 09:58 PM

Originally posted by BlueMule
What they have 'found' is merely a psychophysical manifestation of their collective desires. The fools.

edit on 4-7-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

This forum never fails to disappoint. The fools.

So, if you will allow me to explain some actual science, before I am again hilariously accused of being a disinfo agent sent by the government to plant tracking devices in your cats' whiskers by self-proclaimed "senior" forum people, I will explain to you what the Higgs is and is not. (For those of you who don't recall my other threads, I am an actual real theoretical physicist, which almost none of you here actually believe, and those who do are afraid to admit it in public (although I always get a few PMs from some other lurking scientists saying they believe me! (The fools.))).

The Higgs does not have anything to do with time-travel, changing the mass of things, teleportation, faster than light travel, etc, etc. The Higgs does one thing, and one thing only: it sets the scale of masses of some particles in the Standard Model. (There are some related things, but they all boil down to what drives this effect.)

How does this happen? Well, it's complicated; to understand the details requires knowing quantum field theory, group theory in physics, and symmetry breaking effects, in addition to all the background material for this (multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, mechanics, electrodynamics, quantum mechanics, special relativity, etc, etc). So I can't give you anything more than a cartoony outline of what's going on.

First: the more complicated cartoony explanation of what the Higgs mechanism is, then, in the next post, what that means.

We have a general framework that describes forces, and how forces effect things, called gauge theories (which works for any force, including gravity). The way that these theories are defined is through their (abstract) symmetries. You can think of it similarly to how high school geometry doesn't depend on symmetries like rotations or translations. The Pythagorean theorem is still true even if you slide a triangle around, or rotate it, even though that may look miraculous from the point of view of spelling out the theorem in terms of coordinates in the plane (e.g., taking x^2 + y^2 = d^2 and rotating x and y, simplifying, and getting the same d).

One can write down the gauge theory that describes electromagnetism + the weak force using this framework, and one discovers that the mathematical structure of the theory seems to force any mass terms to be zero. You can imagine if you knew, for example, F = ma, could figure out a is not zero, but F=0. That would tell you it must be that m=0.

On the other hand, we can measure the masses of things and see that they're not zero, so it seemed like the theory had a mistake in it (the fools).

What Higgs discovered (along with several others, independently) is that, building off of the work of Nambu and Goldstone (all not fools), is that the theory can be written down in such a way as to preserve the symmetry, but so that a particular solution does not exhibit the symmetry. It's complicated to understand what this means, but think of this simple example:

Imagine a pencil, balanced perfectly on its tip. The laws of physics that describe this are obviously rotationally symmetric around the pencil (it doesn't matter what angle the pencil is rotated at in the "around" direction, as long as it's standing straight up, because the pencil is symmetric).

However, eventually the pencil will randomly start to fall in one direction (even if it was perfectly balanced, because of tiny air currents, tiny vibrations in the table, etc.). When it's falling, it's clearly asymmetric. Falling to the left isn't the same as falling to the right.

But the laws of physics didn't suddenly change to become asymmetric, the system just evolved into a state where that initial symmetry was no longer obvious.

The same kind of thing happens with the Higgs mechanism. The theory starts off in a symmetric phase, then spontaneously "falls over" into an asymmetric one, which allows for the mass terms to no longer be forbidden because the symmetry is now "mixed up" into other parts of the system.

But this means that the masses of particles can't be changed, or altered through this mechanism. It's nature that decides where the "pencil falling" stops (this effect is understood, but complicated, so I won't describe it). What this does mean, is that the masses of particles that this effect determines are related to each other through this effect, which is cool, because it means the masses of different particles are not completely independent!

But it is not something that can be changed or manipulated. That's not a technological limitation, it just doesn't make mathematical sense to do that.

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 09:59 PM
Now, to the explanation of what this means and why this is cool.

To summarize from the previous post:

* The Higgs allows us to relate the masses of other particles to each other, reducing the number of independent things in the model. That's cool, because it makes the Standard Model simpler than it otherwise would be.

* The Higgs mechanism allows us to understand forces through symmetries and symmetry breaking. This is very cool, because these symmetries allow us to greatly simplify what would otherwise be very complicated calculations. The fact that this works illustrates one way that symmetries can explain any of the forces (again, including gravity).

* The sizes of the masses are fixed by the nature, you can't tune them to any values you like. Incidentally, there are theories, such as those found in condensed matter systems, where there are analogous systems that you can tune in this (and many other) ways, because you can alter material/chemical/mechanical properties of whatever matter the system is built out of. (In fact, the symmetry breaking effect is how superconductors work! This is well-understood and is used to design superconductors!)

But, again, in this case, we don't get to change anything, all the properties are fixed for us by the math.

Now, what what did the experiment tell us?

First, it tells us the mass of the Higgs. This is interesting, because various processes in the Standard Model depend on this mass, and knowing it tells us more about them. One interesting thing in particular, is that this mass is very close to a value that makes the Standard Model's predictions invalid at very large energies. This has no effect on it at "every day" energies, such as found in current particle accelerators, nuclear explosions, or the sun, but does indicate that the Standard Model is incomplete, and does not include all particles.

This is great news, because we already knew it was missing particles, such as dark matter. It is even better news, because the mass found is consistent with (and suggestive of, but not yet requiring) supersymmetry. If supersymmetry is realized in this way, the Standard Model + supersymmetry becomes even simpler! (Despite adding many more particles!) Why this happens is complicated (surprise!) but has to do with the symmetry thing again.

And that's really the biggest thing. The Higgs itself isn't very interesting, we've been pretty sure it was there for various reasons since the '60s/'70s. What's interesting is what the details tell us about physics which are not included in the Standard Model.

What the experiment did not (yet) tell us, but will soon enough, is what kind of Higgs it is. We know it is a Higgs, but there are multiple possibilities (i.e., is it one from supersymmetry, a pure Standard Model one, a composite one, etc) and multiple sub-possibilities (there are different ways supersymmetry can present itself, e.g.) This is why the official announcements have said they've detected something "consistent with" a Higgs, and not "the" Higgs, by the way. (The fools.)

Are there any applications of this outside of physics? Not yet, but, remember that there are tons of applications of high energy theoretical and experimental physics from the '50s and '60s and '70s that are every day technology now, such as almost all medical imaging technology (CAT scans, PET scans, MRIs, X-rays, etc, etc), and there are newly emerging technologies that can target cancer cells with particle beams designed for these kind of experiments.

Quantum field theory (the theory developed in order to do high energy particle physics) is used in the design of many condensed matter systems, such as your LCD screen, too!

So while there are no *direct* every-day consequences of this particular discovery, there will definitely be applications of what will be discovered in the future, and of the technology developed to do it.

Hopefully that was at least a little helpful, and someone will get something out of it before SplitInfinity comes back and incoherently accuses me of being a fake, Senator Vreenak style, and proclaims himself the real expert. The fools.

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 10:24 PM
Maybe I missed the part where they actually announced that they found the higgs boson. I caught the part about finding a boson... but not the higgs boson.

Typical scientists trying to gain interest so they can gain more funding. Just like when ever NASA decides they are going to hold a press conference about life on other planets. You wait and you wait and the day finally comes! Disclosure! Real Information! Right? Wrong. Instead you get a bunch of bs about how they might have found a part of a microscopic fossil... or it could be something that was formed by pressures or heat.

The truth is, they are just trying to force the pieces to fit so the public things the picture looks like it is supposed to in order to keep getting money.

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Rivetlikewhoa
Maybe I missed the part where they actually announced that they found the higgs boson. I caught the part about finding a boson... but not the higgs boson.

In other words you missed the entire two hour scientific talk + press conference? Jeeze, they even had an interview With Peter Higgs on the discovery of the Higgs particle. I guess Higgs himself saying "I never thought this particle I described in the '60s would be discovered in my lifetime" was too subtle for you?

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Moduli

Originally posted by Rivetlikewhoa
Maybe I missed the part where they actually announced that they found the higgs boson. I caught the part about finding a boson... but not the higgs boson.

In other words you missed the entire two hour scientific talk + press conference? Jeeze, they even had an interview With Peter Higgs on the discovery of the Higgs particle. I guess Higgs himself saying "I never thought this particle I described in the '60s would be discovered in my lifetime" was too subtle for you?

Prof Rolf Heuer, director-general of Cern, commented: "As a layman I would now say I think we have it." "We have a discovery - we have observed a new particle consistent with a Higgs boson. But which one? That remains open. "It is a historic milestone but it is only the beginning." Commenting on the em

Source: BBC News

That doesn't sound like "We found the higgs boson particle" to me. That sounds just like he said it, they found a new particle, they can't say it is the higgs boson, they can only say it's the closest they have come to finding it so far.

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 11:33 PM
"Should" "Could" "Possibly" are these words what Science has become? Is there a reason why this project is not World Renown? why, is it that such a "possible" discovery be so very much out of touch to the common person? Is this discovery not Earth Shattering? why is it that such a phenomenal discovery sits below the common news broadcast? Well of course, propaganda is in full swing for another war that will make people rich, no?

Or is it that this knowledge is too sensitive for the common person to comprehend and understand? will it advance and benefit civilization as we know it or is it just another 'item' that civilians need not be aware of? Why don't we see these scientists face on the all great television proclaiming all the wonderful benefits that are tied to such a discovery? Is it wrong to suspect that this potential discovery is being downplayed and underestimated?

Any scientists wish to elaborate on why or how this discovery would advance or contribute to civilization or is that knowledge only accessible to the ordained?

posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 11:37 PM
Many bosons died to bring you this information...

heh sorry couldn't resist

posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:52 AM

Originally posted by Moduli

But it is not something that can be changed or manipulated. That's not a technological limitation, it just doesn't make mathematical sense to do that.

Hopefully that was at least a little helpful, and someone will get something out of it before SplitInfinity comes back and incoherently accuses me of being a fake, Senator Vreenak style, and proclaims himself the real expert. The fools.

Great effort my friend.
Though technology is for application with only some regard to math.
Split Infinity is someone in the know of black projects and most of the time
does not accuse any one in my observation

posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:46 AM
There is a possibility through some versions of the standard model that the Higgs could have four cousins, it could be now a game of determining what flavour we are seeing here. Or there's a one in 2 million chance that this is something entirely different.

Either way we are opening up new physics, this will be remembered in a thousand years along with all the other great discoveries long after the likes of 911 is long forgotten bar by the few anal historians around at that time.

I'm certainly excited about seeing what comes next and no-one is going taking the shine off that.

posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:36 AM
reply to post by 2012zeropointeventhorizon

You believe??? What an odd way of using facts to support a position. The European debt crisis has a multitude of factors. The project being the least of them. The primary cause is poor lending habits. The same thing that is cause the problem in the USA.

posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:52 AM
"According to Reuters' science experts, "It is the last undiscovered piece of the Standard Model that describes the fundamental make-up of the universe; the model is for physicists what the theory of evolution is for biologists."

"Lederman said he gave the Higgs boson the nickname "The God Particle" because the particle is "so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our final understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive,"[5][6][7] but jokingly added that a second reason was because "the publisher wouldn't let us call it the Goddamn Particle, though that might be a more appropriate title, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing."[5][8],_What_Is_the_Question%3F

And these are today's version of the "men of reknown". Jesus did say that the end of the Age would be as "in the days of Noah." The "men of reknown" lead the world to unite as in Babel and to reject the true Creator of Heaven and Earth through their non-stop humanistic search for an origin that does not include their very own Creator. The arrogance and pride of man at its height.

posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 04:23 PM

Originally posted by neoholographic
I think it would be a great discovery but I do think it was rushed.

They rushed this out because of pressure. They have built this billion dollar project and they had to announce something. The thing was built with one of it's main goals: finding the Higgs Boson.

So they said they have found a boson but they will not know it's the Higgs Boson for 3-4 years. They have just appeased those who put pressure on them to find something and bought themselves time.

The results announced are the product of analyses of trillions of collisions!
Preliminary results were described by FermiLab techs after years of tests at the now-closed Tevatron facility.
This is far from "rushed."
No one involved, including Dr. Higgs, would jeopardize their lifes' work with a premature or faulty declaration.
Higgs, himself, has been working on the theory for over 40 years.

Try again.

posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 04:45 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that people post on the internet decrying human progress.

Presumably their ancestors were decrying the discovery of the magnetic field as it wasn't a cure for TB or wouldn't instantly bring peace to the world.

posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 12:38 AM

Originally posted by 2012zeropointeventhorizon
I believe this thing is partialy to blame for.the europian dept crisis and that they sunk alot more money then they are saying. They kept barrowing more and more promising fantastic results creating a black hole of debt. They are secretly telling governments and used for time travel, lightspeed travel and anti matter weapons. Watch now that they have made good on there promise to investors the.euro criss will fix.itself. aslo watch aliens land and world war 3 break out becuase 1. Aliens already have.this tech and see messing somthing up in the timeline and come to intervien. 2. Countrys like iran dont want use to have it so they try to blow
I think alot be.tied.togther can somestart a 2012cernww3 mega.thread.where they explain there theorys. I am a new member and cant start my own thread. I also believe the reason they the because.they know.aliens are.going to land there or to break out making london a target and then the.axis will push facility to.destroy it. I typed this from my phone so forgive me on the spelling and puncuation. Please i want to hear your mega thread therories that as much.topics together as you can

Please don't ever type from your phone again.

This has got to be worse post than a random youtube comment. You probably got more words, grammar, spelling and punctuation WRONG than you actually got anything correct. And even the context doesn't make much sense, and as a last criticism, your whole post isn't coherent enough to deserve an honest reading attempt. The logic of what you are saying is nevertheless easy to see to be quite faulty.

I dread the day you can start threads.. you will probably have another excuse ready for raping the english language and expect others to read the resulting garbage.

I think the Hadron Collider with it's supercomputers will be used directly against humanity in some way - possibly using the computers to process all the data of every individual they have been collecting over the decades, and to control people via the microchips or something as insane - TPTB are completely insane, and they do unfortunately have the technology to achieve all this now. They don't sink billions of dollars for something that doesn't advance their "100% Population Control"-agenda in a powerful way. I am not afraid of black holes, I am afraid to find out HOW this massive, powerful thing will be used against humanity and ensure the 100%, unescapable, total enslavement of us all.

top topics

<< 1   >>

log in