Real ID & that Little Gold Star on Your Driver’s License

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by knowledgedesired
reply to post by Bedlam

 

I saw technology when I was 22 that did not show up in mainstream until I was in my 30's...Just sayin.

I know what's in an EDL, and design that sort of thing for money.

No RFID will ever need a GPS, because the interrogator's right there.

EDL's use e-field design, so they can be read at a reasonable distance, say 10-30 feet. But there's nothing on there except a UID.

Oh, then too some of the stuff not showing up in the mainstream yet we did the design work for.

Non-Techie here, so what are you saying with

"No RFID will ever need a GPS, because the interrogator's right there. " ???

Are you saying that an RFID can be tracked without using GPS?

Originally posted by AuranVector
I'm not sure what they will use (they've been working on alternatives like Smart Dust -- who knows what all DARPA has.

Well, me.

"Smart Dust" wasn't that small. Something like 0.5mm to 1mm a side. It also isn't RFID, as the size drops, you have no room for an antenna structure, so they use light pulses to communicate. Doesn't work so well from your pocket though.

Originally posted by amtarcher
reply to post by AuranVector

 

damit!!! got mine renewed in march in florida. and there's the gold star.

it's hidden in a gold background with a hologram right on top of it.

www.flhsmv.gov...

Thanks for that link. And Florida fought hard against the Real ID Act, but they've been implementing the Real ID since Jan 1, 2010. Way ahead of my State. Wow. I've been asleep.

Originally posted by AuranVector

I'm wondering what exactly the purpose of the RFID chip is in the new Driver's License - if it's not for tracking.

It's to verify the card against the data. If the barcode doesn't match the chip serial number, the ID's a fake. Not that it would be that hard to fake anyway. The parts in EDL drivers licenses are read-only, but if I'm going to make a bogus card, all I need is to make an ID with a one-time programmable facsimile. Note that that would be harder than the average hobbyist could pull off, but the Swiss guys could do it - I'd need your ID for a few seconds to get the serial.

The entire intent is to establish a layered set of overlapping IDs which would be difficult for a NGO sort of infiltrator to replicate. The license has a hologram, it has a barcode, it has a picture ID, it might but doesn't at present have an RFID. You actually don't have to have the RFID part, but DHS wants one.

What's *supposed* to happen is that the picture ID on the card, your face, and the picture ID on file with DHS keyed by the barcode or RFID had better all match to a reasonable degree. If not, it's a fake. If they also store other biometrics on there, those too had better all match. And the UID has to exist for that to happen, another barrier, and the name, address and so on in the government data file under that UID has to match the card as well.

The problem is, if you're dealing with a government level organization, that won't stop them. As is, I can get a really nice drivers license for any state that has the correct hologram, either the original pic or mine, and the barcode that matches whatever DL number I choose to use. With a RealID, all I'd need to do differently is find someone about my general build and facial appearance close enough to pass, and either get their barcode, DL, or interrogate their RFID if they ever deploy that. It's a plus if they have the same color hair and eyes. Then using their picture, I can have a fake made that'll pass even for RealID. It helps that the DMVs for many states will sell you the names, addresses, DL numbers and photos for the state in machine readable form. So as, say, Russia, all I have to do is run a search on all licensed drivers for photo similarities to my face, and pick the best match. Voila, RealID!

I might add I can also get an appropriate replica of any student ID that will pass. Also UPS and FedEx IDs. Trust me, you can't tell them apart. And that doesn't even address diddling the DHS records - if you've got someone in a DMV they can concoct data sets for fake people with ease.

So it's one of those things that sounds good, and might slow down MS13, but won't touch anyone that's serious or well connected.

Is it to record the Biometric Facial Scan?

No. There's only a UID on there.

But my banks never told me my credit cards have RFID chips in them. Why not spell it out?

Some do, some don't. I don't have any on mine.

My State was one of 25 States that rejected the Real ID Act of 2005, but they are clearly implementing it without spelling it out so it is clear to all. They are doing it in a sneaky way.

You live in a border state, probably Washington or the like, right?

Originally posted by AuranVector
For my State, people are being given the "Enhanced" (microchipped) DL ...
They are not spelling out that this contains an RFID chip, because this State rejected the Real ID Act, but they're doing it anyway.

EDL is by nature RFID, that's what it's for. If your license says "Enhanced Driver's License" it's got one, guaranteed.

Ironically, this actually makes us more vulnerable to ID Theft because of how easily RFID chips can be scanned.
Now you need to buy a "secure" wallet.

Not sure what good having your UID does anyone. The first time some cop pulls up that code on someone else's face, they'll be going to jail.

Unless you look a lot like someone that they want to infiltrate somewhere with a good fake ID, in which case you're boned anyway.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by Believer101

 

The star means its Real ID compliant.
To be compliant it must contain an RFID chip.

I've refused to get one since my last expired.
I haven't driven a car in close to a year because of this stupid law.

A license can be Real ID compliant using bar codes on the back. I don't think ANY RealID cards have RFID in them at present.

The RFID thing is part of EDL, which we don't have in Florida. I looked at mine, no chip. If you live in a northern border state, you MIGHT have EDL or PASS.

DHS is squealing for RFID, which I don't really understand. Barcodes on the back already exist, the readers are cheap, it can't be skimmed, it's durable, it doesn't piss people off. But they haven't so far managed to get RFID into law. All that's required for RealID is machine readable data. RFID is not mandated.

My head is spinning on this. So you're saying we can have a Real ID card without the RFID chip?

But the "Enhanced" DL or ID card DOES have the RFID chip for border crossing.

Passport cards and Passports DO have the RFID chips.

This is confusing to me. My understanding is that when full National compliance is in place (2017?), we must have our Real ID, which is also a Federal ID, to board a US commercial airliner (and anything else the Secretary of Homeland Security deems necessary).

My understanding is that a Real ID or Federal ID CAN be used for border crossings.

But you're saying, the Real ID being issued now has all the info on barcodes, but canNOT be used for border crossings. If that's true, the "Real ID" being issued now is not what was described.

So that's how they're getting around the objections to Real ID. They will get all the info they need on us -- facial biometric scans -- without having to chip the cards for now.

They may be doing the Real ID in increments. One step at a time

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by AuranVector
I'm not sure what they will use (they've been working on alternatives like Smart Dust -- who knows what all DARPA has.

Well, me.

"Smart Dust" wasn't that small. Something like 0.5mm to 1mm a side. It also isn't RFID, as the size drops, you have no room for an antenna structure, so they use light pulses to communicate. Doesn't work so well from your pocket though.

That's a relief.

Originally posted by AuranVector

Are you saying that an RFID can be tracked without using GPS?

I'm saying that RFIDs can't be "tracked" in the way I think you mean.

You can't read them from a satellite or from miles away or whatnot.

Therefore, there's no need for GPS, because you know where the reader is. With EDL, that card's not much farther than 30 feet away. Nonetheless, no e-field part has anywhere NEAR enough power to run a GPS anyway.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by AuranVector

I'm wondering what exactly the purpose of the RFID chip is in the new Driver's License - if it's not for tracking.

It's to verify the card against the data. If the barcode doesn't match the chip serial number, the ID's a fake. Not that it would be that hard to fake anyway. The parts in EDL drivers licenses are read-only, but if I'm going to make a bogus card, all I need is to make an ID with a one-time programmable facsimile. Note that that would be harder than the average hobbyist could pull off, but the Swiss guys could do it - I'd need your ID for a few seconds to get the serial.

The entire intent is to establish a layered set of overlapping IDs which would be difficult for a NGO sort of infiltrator to replicate. The license has a hologram, it has a barcode, it has a picture ID, it might but doesn't at present have an RFID. You actually don't have to have the RFID part, but DHS wants one.

What's *supposed* to happen is that the picture ID on the card, your face, and the picture ID on file with DHS keyed by the barcode or RFID had better all match to a reasonable degree. If not, it's a fake. If they also store other biometrics on there, those too had better all match. And the UID has to exist for that to happen, another barrier, and the name, address and so on in the government data file under that UID has to match the card as well.

The problem is, if you're dealing with a government level organization, that won't stop them. As is, I can get a really nice drivers license for any state that has the correct hologram, either the original pic or mine, and the barcode that matches whatever DL number I choose to use. With a RealID, all I'd need to do differently is find someone about my general build and facial appearance close enough to pass, and either get their barcode, DL, or interrogate their RFID if they ever deploy that. It's a plus if they have the same color hair and eyes. Then using their picture, I can have a fake made that'll pass even for RealID. It helps that the DMVs for many states will sell you the names, addresses, DL numbers and photos for the state in machine readable form. So as, say, Russia, all I have to do is run a search on all licensed drivers for photo similarities to my face, and pick the best match. Voila, RealID!

I might add I can also get an appropriate replica of any student ID that will pass. Also UPS and FedEx IDs. Trust me, you can't tell them apart. And that doesn't even address diddling the DHS records - if you've got someone in a DMV they can concoct data sets for fake people with ease.

So it's one of those things that sounds good, and might slow down MS13, but won't touch anyone that's serious or well connected.

Is it to record the Biometric Facial Scan?

No. There's only a UID on there.

But my banks never told me my credit cards have RFID chips in them. Why not spell it out?

Some do, some don't. I don't have any on mine.

My State was one of 25 States that rejected the Real ID Act of 2005, but they are clearly implementing it without spelling it out so it is clear to all. They are doing it in a sneaky way.

You live in a border state, probably Washington or the like, right?

Thank you, Bedlam, for taking the time to explain this to us.

"It helps that the DMVs for many states will sell you the names, addresses, DL numbers and photos for the state in machine readable form."

That's appalling -- it needs to stop now. It's such a dangerous invasion of privacy. Who do they sell this to?

Originally posted by AuranVector

My head is spinning on this. So you're saying we can have a Real ID card without the RFID chip?

At present. The current law requires "MRT" or machine readable technology. An RFID would satisfy the requirement, but so does a 2D barcode.

But the "Enhanced" DL or ID card DOES have the RFID chip for border crossing.

EDL and PASS have e-field RFID parts which are distance readable (30 feet or so). The idea being that you can drive through the squeeze pen without stopping to speed you on your way, which probably doesn't happen anyway. But that's why they say they wanted e-field for that.

Passport cards and Passports DO have the RFID chips.

PASS is not a passport. PASS uses the same distance readable parts as your EDL. Actual e-passports use h-field RFID parts that are not distance readable, because they have a much more elaborate device that uses more power than you can muster up from an e-field interrogator.

But you're saying, the Real ID being issued now has all the info on barcodes, but canNOT be used for border crossings. If that's true, the "Real ID" being issued now is not what was described.

You can use it, but they have to stop you and scan the card with a barcode reader instead of you supposedly being able to just drive through the gate.

So that's how they're getting around the objections to Real ID. They will get all the info they need on us -- facial biometric scans -- without having to chip the cards for now.

They may be doing the Real ID in increments. One step at a time

The whole intent of RealID as pitched is to be able to look at that card, look at you, ask you your name and address and see if what you say matches, then look up your DHS biometric info file/picture by the UID on the card. If that UID is stored in a RFID or barcode doesn't really matter, except DHS seems to think it'll be tougher to replicate the RFID and that their verification database is reliable and secure. Neither are. But whatever.

In the end it won't matter, they can get iris prints from you now at the same distance, it's just a touch too expensive at present.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by AuranVector
For my State, people are being given the "Enhanced" (microchipped) DL ...
They are not spelling out that this contains an RFID chip, because this State rejected the Real ID Act, but they're doing it anyway.

EDL is by nature RFID, that's what it's for. If your license says "Enhanced Driver's License" it's got one, guaranteed.

Ironically, this actually makes us more vulnerable to ID Theft because of how easily RFID chips can be scanned.
Now you need to buy a "secure" wallet.

Not sure what good having your UID does anyone. The first time some cop pulls up that code on someone else's face, they'll be going to jail.

Unless you look a lot like someone that they want to infiltrate somewhere with a good fake ID, in which case you're boned anyway.

Thank you again for this info. It confirms that the "Enhanced" DL & ID are chipped and Washington State is not being honest. They do not state on their site that the "Enhanced" card is chipped. Sneaky.

I'm getting a secure wallet anyway.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by AuranVector

Are you saying that an RFID can be tracked without using GPS?

I'm saying that RFIDs can't be "tracked" in the way I think you mean.

You can't read them from a satellite or from miles away or whatnot.

Therefore, there's no need for GPS, because you know where the reader is. With EDL, that card's not much farther than 30 feet away. Nonetheless, no e-field part has anywhere NEAR enough power to run a GPS anyway.

Thank you for spelling this out for me. I'm feeling like a very dim bulb right now.

Originally posted by AuranVector
That's appalling -- it needs to stop now. It's such a dangerous invasion of privacy. Who do they sell this to?

There are companies that buy it and resell the data one person at a time. If I had enough data on you for a positive ID, say your name is Argyle Boomswanger or the like, or I had your SSN, I could buy your DMV data. There are 10-15 companies that collect that data. LexisNexis is one.

Florida's HSMV will sell you DL info for a penny a head, if you are a corporation with even a smidgen of need to know. My company could buy the entire Florida DL 2012 dataset for $53,000 - we'd pass their criteria.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by AuranVector

My head is spinning on this. So you're saying we can have a Real ID card without the RFID chip?

At present. The current law requires "MRT" or machine readable technology. An RFID would satisfy the requirement, but so does a 2D barcode.

But the "Enhanced" DL or ID card DOES have the RFID chip for border crossing.

EDL and PASS have e-field RFID parts which are distance readable (30 feet or so). The idea being that you can drive through the squeeze pen without stopping to speed you on your way, which probably doesn't happen anyway. But that's why they say they wanted e-field for that.

Passport cards and Passports DO have the RFID chips.

PASS is not a passport. PASS uses the same distance readable parts as your EDL. Actual e-passports use h-field RFID parts that are not distance readable, because they have a much more elaborate device that uses more power than you can muster up from an e-field interrogator.

But you're saying, the Real ID being issued now has all the info on barcodes, but canNOT be used for border crossings. If that's true, the "Real ID" being issued now is not what was described.

You can use it, but they have to stop you and scan the card with a barcode reader instead of you supposedly being able to just drive through the gate.

So that's how they're getting around the objections to Real ID. They will get all the info they need on us -- facial biometric scans -- without having to chip the cards for now.

They may be doing the Real ID in increments. One step at a time

The whole intent of RealID as pitched is to be able to look at that card, look at you, ask you your name and address and see if what you say matches, then look up your DHS biometric info file/picture by the UID on the card. If that UID is stored in a RFID or barcode doesn't really matter, except DHS seems to think it'll be tougher to replicate the RFID and that their verification database is reliable and secure. Neither are. But whatever.

In the end it won't matter, they can get iris prints from you now at the same distance, it's just a touch too expensive at present.

Thank you so much for sharing this info with us. I may not understand this info with the depth that you (& other Techies do) but your explanations clarify a lot.

So DHS is pressing for the RFID.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by AuranVector
That's appalling -- it needs to stop now. It's such a dangerous invasion of privacy. Who do they sell this to?

There are companies that buy it and resell the data one person at a time. If I had enough data on you for a positive ID, say your name is Argyle Boomswanger or the like, or I had your SSN, I could buy your DMV data. There are 10-15 companies that collect that data. LexisNexis is one.

Florida's HSMV will sell you DL info for a penny a head, if you are a corporation with even a smidgen of need to know. My company could buy the entire Florida DL 2012 dataset for $53,000 - we'd pass their criteria.

Thank you again. I'm constantly amazed by what I don't know. And our government is pretty much controlled by the Corporations, so they won't be passing laws against this.

Originally posted by AuranVector
Thank you again. I'm constantly amazed by what I don't know. And our government is pretty much controlled by the Corporations, so they won't be passing laws against this.

A few states no longer sell it, but the majority do. Florida is definitely one - heck, they made something like $62million last year off that alone.

reply to post by AuranVector


Ah, what's the big deal, its not like people haven't been forced to wear gold stars in the past....oh,,,oh yeah...nevermind.

Originally posted by Bedlam
...
In the end it won't matter, they can get iris prints from you now at the same distance, it's just a touch too expensive at present.

Your mentioning iris scans just reminded me of this article:

“Why Is the Government Collecting Your Biometric Data?”

“The next time you get pulled over, watch for a blocky, black gadget attached to the officer's iPhone. That's the MORIS device, one of many mobile fingerprint and biometric scanners proliferating in police departments around the country. MORIS is designed to ascertain identity and dig up an unsavory past, but that's not all: the device can also gather iris scans, fingerprints, and photos searchable with face recognition technology.”

“Mobile scanners like MORIS are just one of the many ways biometric data (unique, identifying physical features including fingerprints, DNA or iris scans) is collected and potentially fed into government and private biometric databases that have swelled in both size and sophistication in the decade after 9/11.

The Department of Justice is expanding its fingerprint database to include iris scans, photos searchable with face recognition technology, scars, tattoos, and measures of voice and gait.”

“…Even motor vehicle departments in many states use face recognition technology to ID people when they get their licenses, and they tend to be cooperative with criminal investigations.”

“The big agencies are also increasingly making their databases interoperable, so (a person’s) print that lands in the DHS database (IDENT) can be accessed by the FBI. Information is also shared with foreign governments and private companies.”

“…So there are a number of ways even just the common citizen could have their fingerprints collected by the federal government.”

“… it could be as minimal as being stopped for a moving violation, because lots of police officers carry mobile fingerprint scanners.”

“…they're also expanding what they collect, like face recognition photos and iris scans.”

“And face recognition also presents the danger of people's identifying information being scooped up and logged without any interaction with law enforcement -- for example, during a political protest.”

“… a gigapixel photograph from a bunch of security cameras that were already in place and the image was stitched together… you can drill down to where you can identify people… the government tried to match the pictures … to photographs the DMV had already collected in their facial recognition database.”

”We do know that several branches of federal agencies have what they call open source databases, so they're collecting publicly available information on Facebook, or on comments on the New York Times Web site, or whatever is publicly available. So they have databases that are designed to collect and sift through data and try and find threats.”

“… it's also not clear where this data is going and what it's being used for, especially since if you use Facebook there's a certain amount of data they will allow to be public, so, your name and a photograph. There's a lot of other data people will share in the world that they don't think is going to be sniffed up by the federal government.”


Read the whole article here:

www.alternet.org...

Thanks to Anonymous404 & amethystmoon for this article.

Originally posted by intrptr
...
Has anybody else mentioned that four layers of tin foil effectively block RFID readers in stores? Wrap your license or credit cards in four layers of tinfoil that cover the strip and they won't be able to read your name from that. With biometrics now... oh well.

Thank you for that tip. I haven't had a chance to google ways to protect the card from unauthorized scanning.

Just posted on the collection of all this biometric info on the citizenry -- scary in its implications.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by AuranVector

 

They are going to get very invasive . Ever wonder what happened to the Nielson rating system .They already know hat you are watching . In fact they could be watching you . They can activate your house phone mouth piece from what I have heard many years ago ..

Yes, that occurred to me too while I was watching TV -- I have a Cable TV box-- they know what I'm watching and there's probably a record of everything I've watched somewhere.

That's really a creepy thought that they could use these devices (cable tv box, a hardline phone) to watch you.

Cameras are so small now, it's getting easier & easier to spy on people.