Physicists Get Closer Than Ever to God Particle

O.C...ahhh...so many posts and so little time. First of all bringing Hawking into this is Funny to me since he still owes a few people some Bet Money over His Black Hole Equations. I would not be so dependent on what HE thinks.

Secondly...there are MANY forms of IQ...it is just that the people who anoint themselves the developers of such tests are not smart enough to understand that IQ is not something that is based ONLY on an ANALYTICAL SCALE but in fact encompasses...Social, Emotional, Creative, Subjective and Asymmetrical Intelligence.

I get a Very Good Chuckle when only those who are Good at Math seem to hold a Concept of what Intelligence is or what it can be used for.

As for my statements on whether this is the Higgs-Boson...I have a very confident feeling it will prove not to be or at the very least...not what they think it is. That probability is much higher than any Scalar Conceptual Law which is most likely FLAWED to begin with.

One thing that I have become familiar with is when someone is spending MUCH MONEY to get RESULTS...RESULTS WILL SOON APPEAR when pressure is brought to bear. I believe this is what is happening here. So I will either get out the POM POMS...or LAUGH MY ASS OFF! I hope it is the POMS....but I am already cracking a smile! Split Infinity

I just realized...if I can find My Pom Poms...I could always borrow YOURS since you have been waving them continuously through out this Topic. LOL! Split Infinity

Originally posted by mbkennel
Remember, the '1 in X million' chance refers to statistical fluctuations assuming each group's assumed model for background. There is always systematic error (i.e. somebody making a mistake or inaccuracies in the model) so you shouldn't take the interpretation of X sigma too seriously.

The systematic error is totally independent of the statistical error. It has nothing to do with the need for 5 sigma. A sigma that high is required (ironically) due to statistics! Briefly, there are lots of combinations of data you can look at, and if you require 2 or 3 sigma evidence, you'll definitely be faked out by random fluctuations all the time (this is just a fancy version of the Birthday Paradox).

5 sigma is chosen because you'll almost never be faked out by random coincidental noise this way. In fact, the only reason the requirement is as low as 5 sigma is because we don't just measure "a number," we measure relationships. And the fact that it fits specifically predicted mathematical relationships in the theory increase the probability that it is what the theory predicts.

Incidentally, this is what engineers have to do, too. They also need better than 5 sigma results. Imagine if buildings would collapse "only" 0.001% of the time . Big trouble considering how many buildings there are!

Systematic errors are dealt with by having two entirely independent teams, who are not allowed to talk to each other about their results, who use different methods and methodologies to analyze the data. Since they calculate things in different ways, a mistake in one can't affect the other! They also have different subgroups inside them that calculate things differently, and double-check and consistency check the others in their group's calculations.

Yes, they haven't verified all the properties, but it really looks like a real Higgs more than anything else.

The statements you hear like that are to clarify that, while we have definitely found a Higgs, we do not yet know which Higgs it is. There are multiple possibilities because there are multiple ways in which a Higgs can come about.

The one they've found is consistent with several models, such as supersymmetry, but we won't know for sure which Higgs it is until they can collect more data.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
I am aware, I think the data is much more supportive than 5 sigma, but I am going with worse possible scenario in which each set of data must stand on its own. I have yet to see a statistiscal analysis done combining the two independent teams, so I only want to go with what is known, not probable.

You don't just get to randomly decide to ignore data. You're required to combine them, it doesn't make sense not to once you have both sets of data. The reason you haven't seen the combined quote in the media is because the media doesn't know this, and the scientists think it's so obvious they did not bother to add the two numbers together for anyone else because that's trivial arithmetic .

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
Secondly...there are MANY forms of IQ...

Such as the kind of IQ that makes you good at math, science, and turns you into an excellent physicist who spends his life studying things like high energy particle theory, or high energy particle experiments, or detector design or data analysis.

Or, for example, the kind of IQ that makes you realize that randomly capitalizing words, putting "..." every ten words, and having incoherent grammar, hurts your credibility.

As for my statements on whether this is the Higgs-Boson...I have a very confident feeling it will prove not to be or at the very least...not what they think it is.

Which you have no proof or evidence for of any kind, and disagree with every single physicist on the planet about.

reply to post by Moduli

ALRIGHT! Someone here GET'S IT! THEY HAVE NOT A CLUE WHICH ONE!

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


What about the fact FERMI saw this as well, and just was not powerful enough to verify it. This is a long time coming and is not a surprise. So you think a 5 sigma confirmation is wrong?

Originally posted by Moduli

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
I am aware, I think the data is much more supportive than 5 sigma, but I am going with worse possible scenario in which each set of data must stand on its own. I have yet to see a statistiscal analysis done combining the two independent teams, so I only want to go with what is known, not probable.

You don't just get to randomly decide to ignore data. You're required to combine them, it doesn't make sense not to once you have both sets of data. The reason you haven't seen the combined quote in the media is because the media doesn't know this, and the scientists think it's so obvious they did not bother to add the two numbers together for anyone else because that's trivial arithmetic

.

I am aware of this. You obviously can not select data you like and discard the rest, but as these are findings from two separate teams. Two separate teams have announced findings though, each team must include all the data they collected, but I am unaware as to whether data from both teams has already been combined, or is still being combined. It is also irrelevant as the ATLAS findings are over 5 sigma all by themselves. There is no need to combine them to reach the mark for a discovery, the added data will only increase the probability, that was my point.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Moduli

 

ALRIGHT! Someone here GET'S IT! THEY HAVE NOT A CLUE WHICH ONE!

Split Infinity

The guy you said gets it disagrees with you. You claim it is NOT the Higgs, it is. The only question is whether it fits nice and neat into the theories or if it has unforseen properties that will bring new questions. Either way you are wrong, it acts the way the Higgs is predicted to act. For someone with a 172 IQ you just don't get it. Then again, you know what they say about tough guys? It can be translated into smart guys too.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

I believe they don't have a CLUE on the scale of which certain Quantum Particles act or transfer. They are limited to the confines of the System to which they are determined to use as a Template and although I could be wrong...Probability Dictates I am not.

Quantum Particles and Wave Forms in my opinion are working in an INFINITE SYSTEM based on Probability and Choice. This is the Multiverse. I have told you about my Military as well as "CIVILIAN" sometimes job and the work they are doing makes the LHC look like Pre-School.

They may not understand everything that they have discovered but they understand how to use this knowledge for PRACTICAL APPLICATION. This is an example of what I mean.

Remember the construction of the DESERTRON or the Super Massive Super Collider that was 90% Finished in construction in the Texas Desert. The U.S. Government spent Multiple Billions on this Massive Underground Particle Smasher which would have made the LHC look like a Wedding Ring in Comparison to a Hula Hoop. At a point where the project was ALMOST finished it was mysteriously CANCELLED! Now why was that? Why would the U.S. spend BILLIONS and just before completion...no matter how much in cost over runs occurred...just cancel a project at that stage of development?

Answer...BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNEW THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS THAT THE DESERTRON WOULD PROVIDE! How do they know...I cannot talk about! BUT JUST USE LOGIC HERE O.C.!

Look at the FEL...Free Electron Laser...quite possibly the MOST EFFECTIVE AS WELL AS DESTRUCTIVE WEAPON EVER CREATED! It is a Laser that acts like a PARTICLE BEAM! The Russians tried to build one but could not. The Physics are well beyond me! But it is REAL and a test for the purpose of target and Acquisition was done and made PUBLIC as a Non-Nuclear Powered FEL was tested for the purpose of the ability of it's Super Computer Networked Targeting and Acquisition System...it was a total success.

Now you tell me...if you understand what they are doing with Electrons as it applies to this Laser...and Electrons as well as Photons are Both Quantum Particles...how is it possible that this LASER has the ability to not be effected by Atmospheric Conditions such as Clouds or Temp. Inversions. Even the Satellite System being placed in orbit for OVER THE HORIZON TARGETING...cannot use a standard Laser Reflective Mirror...no matter how precise the Mirror is designed as the FEL will MELT RIGHT THROUGH THE MIRROR!

This has all the TELLS of a PHOTON ACQUIRING MASS...by either ELECTRON TORSION FIELDS OR BY SOME FORM OF MULTIVERSAL ENTANGLEMENT OF PHOTONS.

If you can explain another concept...then by all means do! Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I have read about this and as far as I am aware this is NOT a normal photon, it is a theorized dark photon, and has not been found as of yet. So far they have found nothing. If it IS found, who is to say it will travel at the speed of light? So my question is valid, show me a source or quit quoting it as fact. Thanks.

So something with a 5 sigma level of certainty you dont believe in, something with zero actual evidence you think is 100% fact?

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Moduli

 

ALRIGHT! Someone here GET'S IT! THEY HAVE NOT A CLUE WHICH ONE!

Split Infinity

The guy you said gets it disagrees with you. You claim it is NOT the Higgs, it is. The only question is whether it fits nice and neat into the theories or if it has unforseen properties that will bring new questions. Either way you are wrong, it acts the way the Higgs is predicted to act. For someone with a 172 IQ you just don't get it. Then again, you know what they say about tough guys? It can be translated into smart guys too.

Again...I will say...I HOPE IT IS THE HIGGS-BOSON....but which one...and this if true seems WAY TO EASY a possibility in...not that it exists...but what it does...and why it does it...as well as the confining BOX they have used as a TEMPLATE on where it exists and why it exists.

The BIG QUESTION is....is this the Quantum Particle that allows Protons and Neutrons....which THEMSELVES ARE COMPRISED OF MANY DIFFERENT QUANTUM PARTICLES....THE ABILITY TO OBTAIN MASS. That is it in a NUT SHELL! Anything besides that discovered would be considered a FAILURE. But here is the Problem...we know that Quantum Particles are the Building Blocks of Atomic Nucleus Particles....ie...Protons and Neutrons. We know that certain Quantum Particles such as a Quark exist in various forms inside Protons and Neutrons...UP, DOWN, CHARMED....etc. As well as the existence of Leptons, Gluons, etc. The Quarks hold the majority of the Energy but the Gluons are what keeps a Proton or Netron Together.

Even the scientists at Brookhaven won't be able to finally answer the question of where protons come from. A central mystery will remain. Inside a proton, as gluons come and go, as quarks and antiquarks come and go in their numberless swarms, one number remains constant: There are always three more quarks than there are antiquarks. Those are the quarks that, "at the very crudest level," as Wilczek puts it, make up the proton. Why are they matter and not antimatter? Why is the universe made of matter and not antimatter? The answer goes beyond quantum chromodynamics. A slight imbalance between quarks and antiquarks, if Wilczek and other theorists are right, was already present in the primordial quark-gluon plasma. Understanding its origin will require accelerators that reach even higher energies, such as CERN's Large Hadron Collider. It will require new kinds of theories—some of which, unfortunately, might demand that we start thinking of particles as tiny loops of string and the universe as having many more dimensions than the four we know and love. I believe that this Quantum System is part of a Multiversal System as Protons and Neutrons have Quarks literally Blinking in and out od EXISTENCE. This seems consistent with transfer of Quantum Particles between Divergent Universal Realities based on PROBABILITY of Choice due to Cause and Effect. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


My only reply at this point is to tell you to get your cheerleading outfit picked out, oh and a camera for the pics if you don't have one. You know the saying, pics or it didn't happen. Good thing us Massachusetts boys can have a little fun at our own expense (at least I know I can).

It will not be a question as to whether this is responsible for mass, the predictions of what it does will be right. The question for what Higgs is it will be answered by is it the simple Higgs we predicted, or is it the Higgs we predicted and then some, it will have the main components of the predicted Higgs either way. There is a real possibility it will have some extremely unique properties that could never have been predicted and create some very exciting theories, that would be amazing!!!

So I hope it is NOT the Higgs as predicted, I hope it is the Higgs 2.0, the Higgs and then some wacky, wild, weirdness thrown into the mix.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

The difference in our disagreement is what I speak of is being used and WORKS! It is reality in that what they have accomplished is an ACTUAL WORKING FUNCTION OF QUANTUM MECHANICS. There is no guessing...there is no Scale to determine if it exists because it actually does something that has no other possible explanation other than this causes that to become or do what it does.

This is a much better way to look at what the reality of what something might be as if it can be USED IN REALITY...THERE IS NO MODEL OR SCALE THAT CAN BE OF GREATER PROOF.

While others postulate....some have the ability to create. Is this not part of your Namesake?
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I think the difference is that it working proves nothing until you find out why. Otherwise I will spin it on you. I don't need to look for the Higgs want to know why? Because objects have Mass, and real life data is all I need. My eyes are responsible for gravity. I don't need to prove it, I dropped an apple and gravity pulled it down, thus my theory must be correct. See how that is not science?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Had I known you were from Mass...I would have given you a Name in a PM that you would find amusing...but now for reasons I can not get into...it is not possible...too bad...I think you would have had a Good Laugh! LOL!

I enjoy talking, debating and even arguing subjects that are on this level so do not think that I do not appreciate the conversation. There are many things you do not know about me other than...I am from Mass, I have a MASSIVE EGO! LOL!...I will admit if I am wrong. And I hold no grudges...as I would rather argue with you than waste what time I have listening to someone drone on about how they feel the Government is out to get them.

I find that I like the fact that you challenge my statements and there are some things I know that are not public knowledge because of my sometimes "CIVILIAN"...Third Job. This means that some of my statements you will just have to use LOGIC and I can point to examples but I cannot provide sources. I think the Example of the FEL is a very Good one as it is now Public Knowledge although the Physics is Top Secret....but it WORKS. And the way it works can provide a line of logic for you to follow.

The example of the cancellation of the Texas Desertron is another Good Example and although this guy was NUT's...Ted Kaczynski's Manifesto was directed at the dangers of the Completion of a Particle Accelerator of such massive size. The way this project was cancelled is a HUGE TELL as to what certain aspects of Military R&D have achieved and NO ONE SPENDS THAT MUCH MONEY AND DOES NOT FINISH A PROJECT THAT IS ALMOST COMPLETE! That is about all I can say about it. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Grew up in Beverly Ma., moved several years ago to follow a beautiful girl. We all know how that usually turns out. Well we will just have to see what they find.

Now then I am just going to jump on your bandwagon for a moment. Let's say we have a photon with mass. I argue that this photon can indeed go the speed of light. Photons do not naturally have mass. If a photon was already travelling at the speed of light and had mass attached to it then it would not ACCELLERATE to the speed of light it's speed would remain constant and thus would circumvent the issues.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

I agree with your statement. But I also know that they have developed a way to use a Photon or change it in a way that allows it to act like a Particle that has mass. It may not be the Photon that has changed but what the Photon has been some how attached to or regulated in how it normally behaves.
Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Now that I can see, and brings us back to the "why"? Why is there mass? Is the photon itself being attached with mass through some process, or is there an effect taking place that is creating mass while the photon itself is massless still?

I guess we shall see! All secrets find the light of day eventually. Well, almost all.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Now that I can see, and brings us back to the "why"? Why is there mass? Is the photon itself being attached with mass through some process, or is there an effect taking place that is creating mass while the photon itself is massless still?

I guess we shall see! All secrets find the light of day eventually. Well, almost all.

The Physics involved in what they are able to do is over my head. THAT BOTHERS ME! LOL! Massive Ego and all...it still makes me wonder how they were able to achieve this breakthrough. I think I have a good idea of where they got the idea from...but to post it would be...irresponsible.

Now Gravity...although not a TRUE FORCE...is labeled...the WEAK FORCE. Magnetism is labeled...the STRONG FORCE...and it is a TRUE FORCE. I wonder if you have ever heard of what is known as...the STRONG FORCE OF GRAVITY? It is talked about in conjunction with exciting a specific element not currently on the Periodic Table with a Proton Stream.

Now this has nothing to do with the FEL but think about this....Everything is actually in constant motion although Newton would not be happy to hear this. Since Dark Energy is supposedly causing the effect of Galaxies Accelerating away in all directions and thus Space/Time itself is expanding to a Greater and Greater Area....this means that SPACE/TIME itself is in a state of Accelerating Motion thus this compounds the Speed of Photon Particle/Waveform to an extent.

What if this has something to do with tapping into that expansion on a Quantum Level as if in our Universal Number of Dimensional states of 10 or 11...I think more...a Photon in a interconnective Multiversal State...obtains a Micro-Mass that is accessible when a certain effect performed upon Photons give them this Micro-Mass as a display of that Multiversal Interconnectivity?

Just a thought. Split Infinity