Views on the Land of NOD. Contributions Welcomed, one and all.

Well, I would like to ask the esteemed and thoughtful contributors in this exalted Web Site, "What would YOU consider the Land of NOD to be and where may it have resided"?

I have some thoughts I will be presenting, but I hit a wrong button, oooooops My bad.

But the Question remains.

Land of Nod for somewhere to Start.

Looking forward to hearing and viewing the thoughts being offered by one and all.

Ciao

Shane

The word means wandering. That is exactly what Cain did. He wandered. Many names in the Bible are descriptive. Sodom and Gomorrah means razed and scorched. Wonder what they were called before they were razed and scorched.

reply to post by Shane


East of the top of the gulf of Aquaba

The four rivers of Genesis converged there (the top of the Gulf) and the area was boggy, swampy and waterlogged. East of there was Eden (the garden) and further East of that was the body of the Arabian Peninsula.

Probably the area is in what we would today call Jordan, just over the Jordanian Hills.

In the times of Genesis (and later) the name of lands were often actually tribal and described the inhabitants more than a country name. Note also that the word "Araba" in Hebrew has the meanings of "the desert", "desert dweller" and "homeless little wanderer". The description of a 'land of wandering' would therefore seem apt.

Eden was probably an enclosed flatland, mostly surrounded by the Jordanian Hills. There are several dam flooded valleys in these hills which could have contained the Garden (remember the Garden was watered by a river flowing through it).

Just my theory, anyway.

reply to post by Numbers33four


Exactly what I'm thinking. A lot of the time translators misrepresented words that have multiple meanings, or weren't meant to be a proper name or place.

So despite the resounding responses in the 1st part of a thought laid forth here a few years ago, I have been looking for details in which I would like to cross over to another pathway, for us all to follow. This will be that next step in a long history.

The Land of Nod? Where would it be? What became of it? Is there any evidence it existed? What became of it's peoples?

I think we, rationally and respectfully can offer views on these questions, but much akin to Atlantis, it is certain we will have differing views on a great many aspects.

This doesn't dismiss the fact that "We" are at the top of the list of intelligent beings on earth, and having such an ability "We" should remain respectful of the views Others will have. It is the collective contribution and thought presented with supportive evidence we seek, since in truth, we can only learn by asking questions. We find the Answer, and look to the next question. And on, and on.....

I am a Christian. I do tend to believe the King James 1611 Bible is a good source of Historical Records, and as such, are being presented in a "factual" manner. This could be debated, but I won't bother, since there are ample other Threads that devote nothing but Pro and Con views on the Subject, which devolve into rants and ravings of some just out to disturb.

Some of those Events will be included as well, since they will bear witness on the Thread itself.

SO,

Seeking the Answer for my First question, we may as well start looking at a source that most have access to, the King James 1611 Bible, and begin at Genesis 4:17.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Here we have the First Reference made of NOD with in the Bible. And we have a Direction. East of Eden.

This poises another question, where was Eden? One thing is clear, Eden is West of NOD.

Are there any references we can locate about Eden?

Well review in the Bible expresses Eden was in the midst of several Rivers. (Something we need to remember, It seems Lands and Divisions of that Land had a lot to do with Natural Boundaries in the Past, Rivers and Streams, Hills and Mountains and Seas and Lakes would have been a defining marker.)

Genesis 2:8 thru notes......

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it

So, we now have two more sets of parameters, namely another direction - East, and some Boundary Markers made up of four Rivers.

So, we can at least make one thing Clear. NOD is East of Eden, and East of the Seat of GOD where Adam was formed.

I am offering the following for just Visual Reasons.



A / A2 = The Seat of GOD where Adam was formed.
B / B2 = Eden
C / C2 = NOD

I know I could have noted "Other" locations for the three locations we have. Likely could have presented 6 or more ending up with A6 and such, but I just wanted to get the optics brought forth. We can visualize a movement.

Is there anything that could assist in directing this into a more defined Map to NOD?

We will see what can be found.

Ciao

Shane

I think Eden was somewhere in Eastern Turkey/Northwestern Iran.

In Antiquities, Josephus describes the Pison as the Ganges (representing the land of Havilah which is noted as India); the Gihon as the Nile (representing the land of Cush which is noted as Ethiopia/Egypt); the Hiddekel as the Tigris/Diglath (representing Assyria which is noted as East Ashur); and the Euphrates as Phrath (representing Iraq).

The location of Eden was where the four rivers met as one, then divided into 4 heads as it flowed out.

Therefore, Eden would have to be located at the extreme North of all 4 of these rivers. I do not think the Nile originally flowed from South to North the way it does now. It most likely flowed from East to West or West to East before the deluge or at the very least, before the time of Peleg when Pangea was split into continents.

Therefore, Nod, could have been Afghanistan, Pakistan or India. Even Eastern Iran.

It is also interesting to note the location of the oldest known civilization at Gobekli Tepe (tagged as "B" in map below). I believe this would be very close to the original location of the Garden. We are also told that Adam and Eve were banished East of the Garden, which would be Mesopotamia which is the cradle of civilization.

Ancient Kurdish kingdom of Dilaman is traditional site of Eden according to Armenian and Nestorian lore.

(likely location of Eden shown with blue tag)
Although their legend states Eden is at the bottom of Lake Van.

notice the curious round sinkhole:
Google Eden

The Dimila Kurds are aka the Zaza. They are a sect of the angel cult called the Yazidis/Yazdani/Yezidi, which is directly associated with the fallen angels of Enoch.

The Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn places Dilaman at the headwaters of the Tigris.



Dilaman is said to have been located southwest of Lake Van, close to Bitlis.


Rivers of Paradise

The traditional location of Noah's Ark is also in the general vicinity, towards the Northeast.

The land of Nod would be East of all this, however we would also need to take into account a likely pole shift since that time, therefore what would have been "East" of Eden, may most likely be "Northeast" of Eden now.

Which would also correlate with the individual who wrote the Biblical account of the location of Eden as being in the "East". I would assume that the perspective this was written from would be somewhere near Jerusalem, therefore Eden would be somewhere East of there. And depending on how archaic the actual record was by the time it was actually written down, a pole shift may also need to be accounted for which would make Eden currently "Northeast" of Jerusalem.

Between the pole shift, deluge and the division of Pangea, I think a general locality of Eden and Nod can be ascertained. These phenomenon can also explain the re-alignment of the Nile river.

A well-researched book on pre-deluvian locations is called "From the Ashes of Angels" by Andrew Collins. It is written from a purely secular point of view, but the research and information is astounding. Easy to make certain connections when reading from a Christian point of view. Kinda funny, because the connections he tries to make on some of his research is not so easy from a secular point of view...kinda like putting a square peg in a round hole. But that's secular "science" in a nutshell, IMO. Gotta make those pre-conceived theories fit one way or another....lol. Even if it means looking like a total jackass when the non-secular answer is slapping them in the face.

Cain was also the prototype of Nimrod. Nimrod is attributed to the building of cities independent of God, most notably, Nineveh and Babylon. The locations of both of which would be East of Eden.
The land of Nod may have been what eventually became Assyria, which is now known as Iraq.

Several replies have been offered, which have brought a few "other" considerations to the Subject.

Certainly there are some Linguistic Aspects to address, such as the term Nod itself and the implied meanings.

Looking at the Strong's Lexicon, we can see the following information covers much of those varied meanings.

Result of search for "Nod":
5110 nuwd nood a primitive root; to nod, i.e. waver; figuratively, to wander, flee, disappear; also (from shaking the head in sympathy), to console, deplore, or (from tossing the head in scorn) taunt:--bemoan, flee, get, mourn, make to move, take pity, remove, shake, skip for joy, be sorry, vagabond, way, wandering.

5112 nowd node (only defect. nod [node]); from 5110; exile:--wandering.
5113 Nowd node the same as 5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain:--Nod.

Nowd is where we seek, The Land of Cain. I believe we will seek an Area which carries forth the sort of meanings we can find in the Word nowd (5112) & nuwd (5110).

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, I am not certain on how they apply. We know where both were. The Eastern side of the Dead Sea in Jordanian lands.

I think we could address some other concerns as well at this time.

My last remark was seeking a Map that could maybe point us in a direction East. Then Stupid Girl offered some things to consider. (Who told you, You were Stupid? They are wrong!)

Look, We have two lines of Descendants discussed in Genesis.

One being the Descendants of Adam, through Seth, to Noah and onto Christ, which takes up most of the narrative of the Old Testament.

A Bloodline that GOD has guided, chastised, assisted, directed and made covenants with. All the while ensuring it was intact.

The other Bloodline, is that of Cain's, (the Cainite), and it doesn't appear, Cain's Family, would have been receiving the same guidance Adam's got from GOD.

There is also the curious remarks GOD made in Genesis when speaking to Eve about her misadventure with the Serpent.

Genesis 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes, I believe that Cain is that Seed of the Serpent. Yes, I believe he is not related in anyway with Adam. For that matter, there is no defining use of words, that suggest Cain is Adam's son.

His mother was Eve. His Brother was Abel, (son of Adam as the name implies), but truly a half brother. Eve's comments imply she "knew" the serpent, prior to Adam knowing Eve. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more).

"The serpent beguiled me", carries several meanings, much as we saw with NOD.

5377 nasha' naw-shaw' a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce:--beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.

Now, are the remarks made by GOD, cursing the Serpent and his seed relevant if at the worst, the serpent led Eve astray, mentally? I think not.

With that said, we have another possible lead.

And in my haste on the previous reply, I completely forgot we had one further indicator.

Because of what occurred to Eve, and Adam within the Garden of Eden, they were escorted out of Eden and sent East.

So, the location we seek for NOD, would now be as follows.



A; The seat of GOD
B; Eden
C; Where Adam and Eve where escorted
D; Where Cain dwelt.

Again, the map was for perspective of what East implied. Not exactly where these places where.

We also have that other lead, noted above.

Cain, sent from where Adam and Eve lived, and heading east to find a wife and start his family tree as noted in....

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.

We'll pickup on this in the next post.

Ciao

Shane

So, since we previously noted there are varied meanings for Words, let see what meanings are applied to this family line of Cain.

Cain

7014 Qayin kah'-yin the same as 7013 (with a play upon the affinity to 7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe:--Cain, Kenite(-s).

Enoch

2585 Chanowk khan-oke' from 2596; initiated; Chanok, an antediluvian patriach:--Enoch

Irad

5897 `Iyrad ee-rawd' from the same as 6166; fugitive; Irad, an antediluvian:--Irad

Mehujael

4232 Mchuwya'el mekh-oo-yaw-ale' or Mchiyyauel [mekh-ee-yaw-ale']; from 4229 and 410; smitten of God; Mechujael or Mechijael, an anxediluvian patriarch:--Mehujael.

Methusael

4967 Mthuwsha'el meth-oo-shaw-ale' from 4962 and 410, with the relative interposed; man who (is) of God; Methusael, an antediluvian patriarch:--Methusael.

Lamech

3929 Lemek leh'-mek from an unused root of uncertain meaning; Lemek, the name of two antediluvian patriarchs:--Lamech.

Jabal

2989 Yabal yaw-bawl' the same as 2988; Jabal, an antediluvian:--Jabal.

Jubal

3106 Yuwbal yoo-bawl' from 2986; stream; Jubal, an antediluvian:--Jubal

Tubal-cain

8423 Tuwbal Qayin too-bal' kah'-yin apparently from 2986 (Compare 2981) and 7014; offspring of Cain; Tubal-Kajin, an antidiluvian patriarch:--Tubal-cain.

If one is interested, you may also search the roots at Strong's Lexicon, such as those roots found for Enoch.

We also have the lead I spoke of previously.

Since GOD isn't the one providing guidance for this group of peoples, who would? The father of this Bloodline? The serpent and his followers?

The Book of Enoch gives a descriptive narrative of these Followers, and things that occurred during their time here on earth. They came to earth and became gods to many of the 6th Day peoples. But "like" GOD acted with the descendants of Adam, I would expect the Serpent and his followers, (the Fallen) would likewise be assisting their family tree and Cain's Family line.

So, what was occurring? Enoch's narrative is quite specific. The Fallen where teaching many things to their followers.

Some learned of Astrology, Some learned of Astronomy, Some learn Numerology, Some learned Medicinal / Pharmaceutical Skills, Some learned Spells and Some learned how to counter Spells.

And still Some learned Metalworking, and the skill of Weaponry.

According to some within the realm of ATS, several debatable organizations point to One Such Learned individual that originated these specific skills. That namely being Tubal-Cain.

Taking these things into consideration, I think we can narrow our search a little bit. We may end up finding several other areas of habitation, based on skills, the native peoples of those regions many have become adept at, but I think if we seek the Finest Metal Worker/Crafters of their time, we will find NOD.

So, what would we seek in specific?

Cain, is learned in Agricultural tending of crops, and would know how to work livestock in the Field. He also, according to Genesis 4, knows how to build, and seemingly a city.

We would look for an area of creative people (musical), who knew how to tend crops, have nomadic tendencies with their Livestock, play around with the mixing of Chemicals and Plants, practiced Spells and Incantations and the site of an Early "City"

With Tubal-cain thrown in the mix, we would seek the first and finest metal workers, and likely, due to the nature of tools addressed in Enoch,.........

CHAPTER VIII.

1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments

..........we would look to the most superior warrior peoples of their time.

Although we have several people who posted, that suggest we are looking at the Middle East, and Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Arabia, I personally think not due to several factors.

Aside from Livestock, and the Nomadic Ventures of those peoples, right now there is little evidence they had a firm grasp on the Farming aspect and as I think we will see, offered nothing in the ways of war, until much later times, (ie 1800 - 1500 BC).

I also believe that these peoples, are discussed with in the Bible, leading upto the events that surround Abraham and his moving from UR to Israel or that general area.

This doesn't even take into account, we are looking for Pre Flood peoples and Place.

Ciao

Shane

So, let's look for Cain, and his descendants apposed to speculating on NOD, and see how that progresses.

We are told through the Book of Enoch that Azâzêl taught man how to work Metal. Are there any indicators we can look to seek evidence that supports a "People" had developed skills working metals that was far superior to the balance of the globe, at that time?

Facts and Details have a brief review on several of the benchmarks of man, from sculpting to currency, which included the following section on Metal Working.

Metal Working and Earliest Gold Artifacts from Bulgaria

The Near East was rich in clays, metal ores and iron-rich pigments. These allowed some of the earliest metalworking and pottery-making developments. By 3500 B.C., in the Near east, metalworkers had developed a method of extracting metal from its ores. Copper, silver, lead and gold were all worked. Varna on the Danube had a thriving metal industry in 4000 B.C.

Because of the uneven availability of ore sources and the sophistication of the technology it helped some cultures gain an upper hand over others. It also meant that metal objects became greatly desired as works of art and metal for weapons

See Copper Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age

The world's oldest known gold artifacts, a couple of 6000-year-old goat figures with holes punched in them, were not found in Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley or Egypt, they were discovered in 1972 in a grave by a tractor operator laying some electric cable in northeastern Bulgaria. [Source: Colin Renfrew, National Geographic, July 1980]

The largest golden goat was about two-and-a-inches long. It was discovered along with about 2,000 other gold pieces (weighing more that 12 pounds) in 250 excavated graves in an ancient cemetery near the Black Sea town of Varna. The pieces included golden necklaces, breastplates, chains, bracelets, earrings, a hammer, and a bowl painted in gold.

The find was shocking. Most cultures still used stone tools in this period, a few had developed copper axes and awls, and the development was bronze was a thousand years away, and iron two thousand years. The gold pieces date back to at least 4000 B.C., and they may go as far back as 4600 B.C.

I find this as a very encouraging article. What other aspects of "lifestyle" should be "Noticeable".

Well, when Cain gets to NOD, he finds and "knows" his wife, and she bares Enoch, which Cain builds a city in honor of. Can we find any evidence of what would be a "City" that is also somewhere in this region, and dates to this period, 4600 - 4000 BC.

7,000-Years-Old Prototype of European Towns Found in Bulgaria

BalkanTravellers.com

4 June 2011 | Bulgarian archaeologists discovered what they believe to be the oldest town in Europe, local media reported. Dubbed a 'proto-town', the site is situated near the town of Pazardzhic, in the center of the country.

In 2008 the team of archaeologist Yasen Boyadzhiev found in the area a large ancient graveyard, which became known under the current name of the area, Yunatsite (The Heroes). Later the excavations were extended and yesterday the researchers announced they have found a surprisingly large settlement, which during 4700-4600 BC spread over 100 000 sq m.

The site possessed all the features of an urban center, Yasen Boyadzhiev was quoted to say. His team discovered vast fortified walls – one wall five meters wide and at least five meters tall, a ditch and then another defence wall, all running along each other.

The citadel was surrounding only the highest part of the settlement, and beyond its walls the buildings continued. Within the walls the archaeologist discovered not only houses, but also what was apparently workshops center. Some of the found artefacts speak of advanced production skills.

So far constructions of this scale and planning were found only in settlements of much later periods, such as classical antiquity. “Our conclusion would be that the urban planning, as we know it in Medeaval Europe, already existed at least several thousand years earlier,” Yasen Boyadzhiev said.

I found several things in the article from Balkan Travellers site quite interesting.

1st: The Name of the Area. The Heros (Yunat)
2nd: A workshops center
3rd: 4700 - 4600 BC

Maybe this is nothing more than a Coincidence. Maybe it isn't, but one thing IS clear. Outside of the Megalithic Constructions which precede this find, we may have the Earliest Known Urban Center along with an understanding of Metal Working that also precedes "other" peoples.

What else can be looked at? Cain was a Farmer, who knew how to grow Crops. The comments GOD made in regards to this could hinder Cain's Production of Crops, but I would think he could teach these skills to others who wouldn't be hindered by Genesis 4:12

Ciao

Shane

Well, looking in the Black Sea Arena and sowing the seeds of Agriculture, doesn't seem to reap the fruits I was hoping to at least notice, let alone find.

This region, offers at best, confirmation of a farming structure that still maintained the Vagrancy and Nomadic aspect, due to the "Poor" soil conditions and the need to let the Natural Replenishing of Nutrients in the Soil take place.

This seems to be the mainstay of the region. The peoples Settle, Farm, Grow in Population, mainly due to the "abundance" of food stuffs, and a decline in production that sends the farmers packing.

I lost it in the reviews somewhere, and will bring it back up when/if I find it again, but just to the north, of the Black Sea, they have found towns, constructed in Wood, which have a recurring pattern of being burned and rebuilt ontop of itself, every 80 years. It was inhabited for some 1200 years, since they established there where 14 or 15 layers of city/town.

(Well, I just found it at Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. They found 13 Layers. So lets go for 1100 Years of Habitation.)

Could this be part of the Farming Collective moving between sites, as the Soil regenerated when the crops sapped the available nutrients????? Pack up and move to the next "Town" burning and rebuilding, as we start sowing new crops in the rejuvenated soil? Ashes do assist in cultivation of certain crops as well. I know personally, Berries, (Rasberries, Blackberries, Currents, etc) tend to product much better when Ashes from the Fireplace/Woodstove are placed in the soil surrounding the plants. This is MY OWN comments on the 80 year Burning Cycle. It wasn't discussed in the article. What was noted was they had no idea as to why they did this. The peoples did have flocks, and horses, and metal, and in this region, they where within the realm of the Steppes.

I was more than surprised to see Serbia may actually be the first place on Earth to "Fire" metals with a finding dating back 5000 BC. From the Wiki Site this is noted in the Chalcolithic / Eneolithic Period page.

The period is a transitional one but not outside of the traditional three-age system. It appears that copper was not widely exploited at first and that efforts in alloying it with tin and other metals began quite soon, making it difficult to distinguish the distinct Chalcolithic cultures from later periods. The boundary between the Copper and Bronze Ages is indistinct, since alloys sputtered in and out of use due to the erratic supply of tin.
The emergence of metallurgy occurred first in the Fertile Crescent, where it gave rise to the Bronze Age in the 4th millennium BC. There was an independent and limited invention of copper and bronze smelting by the Incas in South America and the Mesoamerican civilization in West Mexico (see Metallurgy in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica).
The literature of European archaeology, in general, avoids the use of 'chalcolithic' (the term 'Copper Age' is preferred), whereas Middle Eastern archaeologists regularly use it. The Copper Age in the Middle East and the Caucasus began in the late 5th millennium BC and lasted for about a millennium before it gave rise to the Early Bronze Age. The transition from the European Copper Age to Bronze Age Europe occurs about the same time, between the late 5th and the late 3rd millennia BC.
According to Parpola,[3] ceramic similarities between the Indus Civilization, southern Turkmenistan, and northern Iran during 4300–3300 BC of the Chalcolithic period (Copper Age) suggest considerable mobility and trade.
[edit]Europe

Chalcolithic Europe and Metallurgy during the Copper Age in Europe

An archaeological site in southeastern Europe (Serbia) contains the oldest securely dated evidence of copper making at high temperature, from 7,000 years ago. The find in June 2010 extends the known record of copper smelting by about 500 years, and suggests that copper smelting may have been invented in separate parts of Asia and Europe at that time rather than spreading from a single source.[1] In Serbia a copper axe was found at Prokuplje, which indicates that humans were using metals in Europe by 7,500 years ago (~5,500 BC), many years earlier than previously believed.[4] Knowledge of the use of copper was far wider spread than the metal itself. The European Battle Axe culture used stone axes modeled on copper axes, even with imitation "mold marks" carved in the stone.[5]

Well, time is fleeting, but we can see some evidence of these findings in the following Wiki Page on the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture] Vinca Culture.

They practised a mixed subsistence economy where agriculture, animal husbandry and hunting and foraging all contributed to the diet of the growing Vinča population.