Challenge Match: W3RLIED2 vs Druid 42: Heil Earthlings, Take us to your Fuhrer

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posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 12:10 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Nazi Germany was in contact with ETs”

W3RLIED2 will be arguing the "Pro" position and begin the debate.
Druid42 will be arguing the "Con" position.

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posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 07:03 PM
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Heil Earthlings, take us to your Fuhrer!

Greetings, ATS Fighters and readers.  Before we start I would just like to say its a pleasure to finally get into the Fighters 'ring'.  Im glad to see there is still an enthusiasm for civil discussion in a debate setting, and I am proud to be a part of the ATS Fighter team.  My thanks to The Vagabond for arranging this debate with Druid42, and thanks to my opponent for accepting the open challenge.

Ever since the end of World War 2 there has been many mysterious and sometimes shocking revelations in regards to what the highest ranking Nazis, including Hitler, were truly doing behind the scenes of the European Theatre.  Nazi high command and the scientists they employed have literally had their hands in the development of all the modern technologies we are currently using today, and did so decades ahead of any other nation at the time.  From aviation and rocketry, submarines,  even television and radio, and the discovery of fission; the Nazi scientists and engineers discovered, built and improved them all.  The evidence is certainly available to support the argument that during the reign of the Third Reich the Nazis were in fact in communication with some form of non-earthly intelligences... Extra terrestrials.  

A report from a book written by Jan von Helsing titled "Secret Societies and Their Power In the 20th Century" goes as follows ( paraphrased ) :  

In 1936 around the area of the Black Forrest in Germany the people of Frieberg, a small city,  were awakened to a sound described as an explosive plane crash.  As investigators started showing up to find the remains of the fallen aircraft they discovered that it was not a plane, but a discoid shaped craft, heavily damaged, with what appeared to be dead remains of extra terrestrials.  Within several hours of the crash reports describe a team of SS soldiers with heavy equipment and trucks recovering the crashed discoid and taking it back to SS headquarters at Welesberg Castle.  The speculation from here is that they promptly began reverse engineering the craft, however, a mere 3 years later in 1939 the Nazis produce plans for Hanubeu 1, a 25 meter in diameter flying saucer.  Sounds eerily familiar to this researcher.

Its well documented that the Nazis were far ahead of the rest of planet Earths scientists.  Perfect examples of ET involvement would be most easily found in the fields of aeronautics, and rocketry.  The V-1 Buzzbomb was literally the first cruise missile, and its bigger, more badass brother the V-2 is historically the first ballistic missile.  On top of these deadly examples of potential ET influenced technology, the Nazis also had plans for the A-10 "New York Rocket", as well as a "Mars rocket".  Obviously, Hitler had some pretty big plans for the world.

Naturally the question arrises, where did the Nazis come up with these ideas?  Why the sudden jump forward?  The answer lies in the Nazis obsessions with the occult, ancient religion, and ET contact.  

In the years just prior to WW2, Hitler and members of his personal security force, the SS, founded the societies of the Vril, and the Thule.  Each of these groups were comprised of Elite members of the Nazis, and also psychic mediums, who ,indeed, claimed to be in constant contact with extra terrestrials from the Alderbaran system, located in the constellation of Taurus.  One of the less known members of the Vril was a woman named Maria Orsic.  She was in a trance like state of communion with an ET and "automatically wrote" a series of glyphs accompanied by schematics. Her auto writings, along with other channeling from extra terrestrials were what inspired scientists like Viktor Schauberger and Werner von Braun to build the exotic propulsion systems to be used by the Nazi war machine, and later by NASA.

The highest ranking Nazis that surrounded Hitler were obsessed with ancient texts, lost technologies, and ET contact. The evidence for Nazi Germany being in contact with Extra Terrestrials can be found with the technologies produced by the Nazis by the end of the war.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 08:42 PM
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I wish to thank both The Vagabond and W3RLIED2 for the opportunity to participate in this debate. My position in this debate is to prove that Nazi Germany was not in contact with extra-terrestrials, and that any such contact were the delusions of certain individuals, and that the regime at the time was susceptible to "mystical influences", not based in fact, but based upon the current theology of the era.

I offer first this article from a less than reputable site, but it will give you a firm stance on the speculation that surrounds this topic:



Ten years before an alien craft crashed onto rancher Mack Brazel’s property near Roswell, New Mexico, a flying saucer lost control and crashed onto the countryside of Nazi Germany. This incredible story—covered-up by both the U.S. and U.S.S.R. for more than 70 years—is allegedly the actual basis for the Nazi’s intense research into wingless, disc aircraft; Hitler’s and Himmler’s near obsession with exotic technology and flying saucers; and the incredible experiments by S.S. physicists that culminated with flying saucers and the ‘Bell’—a bizarre multi-dimensional motor that neutralized gravity and ripped a gash into the very fabric of the time-space continuum creating incredible and horrific effects.
Source.

What we have here is speculation. There are no reports of recovering "live" aliens. Therefore, there is no direct contact. However, I will acknowledge that the "Glocke" (the Bell) was an actual historical device destroyed so the Allies couldn't gain access to it. It was man made, and a crude prototype of theories that the German scientists had.


Die Glocke or in English, “The Bell” is believed to have been Nazi Germany’s famed Wunderwaffe or Wonder Weapon. It was the culmination of Nazi Germany’s brightest scientific minds. The same people who brought us the V1 and V2 rockets (the V2 being the first manmade object to leave our atmosphere and plunge into the cold depths of space) are also thought to have been involved in the development of a weapon so terrible that some accounts describe factions of these scientists refusing to release technical plans to Nazi leaders for fear of what might be done with the technology. Incidentally, these were also the men who eventually helped to design and build the first atomic bomb.



For the record, no one really knows what Wundwerwaffe actually was, or even if Nazi Germany was really developing anything other than conventional weaponry. Most mainstream science and historical experts are adamant that the V series rockets were the pinnacle of German technology at the time, and that the Bell is a simple urban legend.
Source.

At the same time, scientists in the USA were developing the Atomic Bomb, released upon Japan with actual devastating effects. There are no historical records of the United States (or the Allies, for that matter) having alien influences on the development of their technologies.

Socratic Questions:

1) Why do you think Nazi Germany was the only nation during WW2 to have the benefit of "alien" influence, whether it be by "channeling" or "direct" contact?

2) With said contact, wouldn't it be rational that Nazi Germany would have had an advantage, and would have balanced their resources to win the war?

Over to you.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 09:44 PM
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For the sake of this argument I ask those reading to keep an open mind.  We are treading into the realm of pure speculation.

To fully understand how and why the Nazis received contact from ET's you first have to understand what the Nazis believed at the most fundamental level.  The Nazis were an occult party, first,  and a political party, second.  Hitlers fiercely loyal inner circle were all die hard believers in occult methods of seeking knowledge.  In fact, Hitler personally ordered small groups of archeologists and scientists on expeditions to India, Tibet, Egypt, Scotland, and elsewhere in search of ancient technology he believed would help him win the war.  Most notoriously, the Ark of the Covenant.

In response to your Socratic Questions:

1)  My reasoning behind the notion of contact is as follows:  Before the Nazis initiated the Blitzkrieg on Europe, copious amounts of time were spent by the SS, the Vril, and the Thule societies doing nothing else but performing neo-pagan rituals and 'contacting' ET via telepathic mediums.  The foundational beliefs of the "Aryan Master Race" (aside from being inspired by a fictional book titled "The Coming Race") were inspired by a 100% belief in ET heritage from the Aldebaran system.



Hitler and the SS were motivated, also, by ancient Hindu scriptures.  They read them as literal accounts of history, not as inspired religious writings.  As many scholars and theologians have discussed, there is weighty evidence in the ancient Hindu books that suggests mankind was already in contact with aliens.  They, indeed, had powerful flying machines as well as powerful weapons technology.  

For these reasons I submit that there was no direct contact with ET.  Even if the alleged Black Forrest crash was alien, the story states that they were all dead.  IMO, the contact was maintained through repeated meditative contacts and garnished from the Hindu accounts of 'ancient astronaughts'.

2)  The simple response is, no, thats not entirely rational.  Just because there was contact with ET, by the accounts we have to go off of it was a transference of technological and spiritual information, for example, the fundamentals belief of Aryans having direct lineage to Aldebaran. 

Hitler had put Himmler in control of nearly every aspect regarding the management of Nazi resources during the war.  Germany was also heavily reliant on South American companies shipping them raw materials.  After the allied invasion and ensuing blockades, nearly all foreign resources that Germany had depended on were cut off.  

At that point in the war, the Nazis had a very rigid and well planned retreat strategy that went into effect.  Thousands and thousands of Nazis, high ranking and low, began to leave Germany the moment they realized Germany was lost.  Some even speculate that it was the Vrilian women who transmitted a coded message to Hitler and the SS telling them to abandon Germany in order to ensure the continuity of Nazi ideals in South America.  Another highly speculative theory is that Maria Orsich and the Vrilian women sent a message to their ET contacts in the Aldebaran system and were than evacuated by ET to another planet all together!



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 08:53 PM
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Rebuttal #1:

Since we have both ruled out "direct" contact with aliens, let's focus on the historical record, and uncover a bit more information about the "contact" that Nazi Germany had with ETs.

Before the term "flying saucer" was coined on June 24th, 1947, by Army Air Corps pilot Kenneth Arnold, and subsequently referred to by the media outlets, there was a saucer crash,


In 1936 around the area of the Black Forrest in Germany the people of Frieberg, a small city, were awakened to a sound described as an explosive plane crash. As investigators started showing up to find the remains of the fallen aircraft they discovered that it was not a plane, but a discoid shaped craft, heavily damaged

ten years before the term "flying saucer" was common usage.

How does this pre-Roswell crash fit in to the questions we have? Simply put, Nazi Germany was experimenting with flying shapes and designs. Why were they doing this? The influence of the Vril Society.

My opponent has stated earlier that:



One of the less known members of the Vril was a woman named Maria Orsic. She was in a trance like state of communion with an ET and "automatically wrote" a series of glyphs accompanied by schematics. Her auto writings, along with other channeling from extra terrestrials were what inspired scientists like Viktor Schauberger and Werner von Braun to build the exotic propulsion systems to be used by the Nazi war machine, and later by NASA.


I'd like to show that Maria Orsic was a very influential person in the development of Nazi technology, and in fact:


The medium Maria Orsic was leader of the 'Vrilerinnen', the beautiful young ladies of the Vril Gesellschaft. Characteristically they all wore their hair in long horsetails, contrary to the popular short bobbed fashion of their day, claiming their long hair acted as cosmic antennas that helped facilitate their contact with extraterrestrials beings from beyond. According to the legend of the German Vril society, a fateful meeting was held in 1919 at an old hunting lodge near Berchtesgaden, where Maria Orsic presented to a small group assembled from the Thule, Vril and Black Sun Societies, telepathic messages she claimed to have received from an extraterrestrial civilization existing in the distant Aldebaran solar system, sixty-eight light years away, in the Constellation of Taurus. One set of Maria's channeled transmissions was found to be in a secret German Templar script unknown to her.
Source.

To note for this debate, I'll state that Maria Orsic was influencing the Thule, Vril, and Black Sun Societies at the same time. I'll propose for my opponent to debate that Maria Orsic, in 1919, was already manipulating a position of power for herself, and was a wise woman with a hidden agenda. I believe her so called "channelings" were an early attempt to manipulate the male dominated political arena, and she was plying for a position of "influence" in the political realm. This pre-dates Nazi Germany. She was an influence very early in the game, having positioned herself to be in a position of "consulting" before Hitler came to power.




One set of Maria’s channeled transmissions was found to be in a secret German Templar script unknown to her. A second series of transmissions appeared to be written in an ancient eastern language, which Babylonian scholars associated with the Thule group, recognized as ancient Sumerian. Maria Orsic along with Sigrun, another of the Vril Society’s female mediums, began the task of translating these transmissions and discovered they contained instructions for building a circular flight machine.
Source.

By now, Maria and her team pictured above were considered to be the "experts" on contact with the ETs, through channeling, and Nazi Germany was under their spell. They were beautiful women, and as "mediums" they set themselves to be in a position that would dictate the direction of the war. Manipulators they were, but not brilliant strategists.

Socratic Questions:

1) Have there been other instances in history where women manipulate the political environment? Do you believe this is possible, given that men in the historical record have always dictated policies?

2) Do you have any documentation that Maria Orsic, and her Vril, actually traveled to the Aldebaran system?



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by Druid42
 


reply to post by The Vagabond
 


If its acceptable to the judges, and my opponent, I request to concede victory. I enjoyed the pro side of this debate but all of my own reading has lead me to the conclusion the if saucer techology existed among the Nazis it was inspired by human interests, not ET.

My compliments to Druid42 for using my own material against me! It is true the Vril existed, but I can find no evidence to support an actual ET connection. The Aldebaran, Nazi connection is a stretch to say the least, and it goes against my own logic to argue otherwise.

In conclusion, its easy to assume that the Nazis, particularly those obsessed with the occult, were really inspired by a belief in ET life, but the actual production of any discoid flying machines, or something like " the bell " ( which I do believe existed and was ultimately lost to history ) was totally a human invention, maybe inspired by the Vedic scriptures regarding vimana.

Overall, when it comes to Nazi contact with ET it is yet another subject for the individual to decide. I think there is enough 'fringe' evidence to suggest the notion as an entertaining speculation, but actual evidence is completely lacking. Hitler and the Nazis were hell bent on world domination at any cost no matter how terrible. The technological advances produced by the Nazis will never justify the loss of human life or the enslavement of so many innocent people. Hopefully the ultimate lesson learned from the Third Reich is that a fascist dictatorship, no matter how technologically advanced, is unacceptable in accordance with hummanity and free will. Contact with an advanced extra terrestrial race means nothing if it is wasted on the machine of war.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:40 AM
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I'll defer to the decision of the judges.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 01:39 PM
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Druid42 wins the debate by default. Debaters are reminded that quality of argument is more important than being right however, and that playing "devil's advocate" can be great practice.





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