Sunken welsh kingdom's

reply to post by XeroOne


well i've always beleved the welsh version of king arthur
llyn y fan fawr is supposed to be the origins of the lady in the
lake so i've heard

or is it llyn y fan fach i always get these two mixed up.

Originally posted by XeroOne
I wonder if there is truth to the Welsh version of the Arthur legends. Wouldn't Angelsey be the perfect candidate for the island of Avalon? It seems more central than Bardsey.

edit on 2-7-2012 by XeroOne because: (no reason given)

Sshhhh....don't tell everyone!

Rainbows
Jane

Originally posted by slaine1978
reply to post by XeroOne

 

well i've always beleved the welsh version of king arthur

llyn y fan fawr is supposed to be the origins of the lady in the
lake so i've heard

or is it llyn y fan fach i always get these two mixed up.

Where is Llyn y Fan Fawr/Fach please?

Rainbows
Jane

reply to post by angelchemuel


llyn y fan fach/fawr are in brecon.
google them beautiful sceanery

Originally posted by angelchemuel

Originally posted by XeroOne

Originally posted by trustnothing
reply to post by XeroOne

 

The Royals go to Anglesy as part of their education, William did, his father before him. I presume to be taught magik. Prince Charles had his " Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Caernarfon in 1969 " A very peculiar ceremony which can be seen on youtube

I would be very interested to know what makes you say that the royals go to Anglesey as part of their education. As far as I am aware Prince Charles attended a 6 week intensive course at Harlech Uni to learn Welsh. As for William...he is continuing his 'education' as RAF 'copter pilot at RAF Valley.

As to Charles' investiture being peculiar...do you mean because he took his oath as Prince of Wales in Welsh...is that what made it 'peculiar' for you? I am no ardent royalist, but I am curious as to why you have drawn the conclusions you have in your post


Rainbows
Jane

edit on 2-7-2012 by angelchemuel because: (no reason given)

It was nothing to do with it being in the Welsh language, I need to find my actualy links as this was something I looked into 2 years back, however for starters I have found a few which seem to be along the same train of thought

At his coronation (investiture as Prince of Wales) in 1969, he sat on a chair with a large red dragon emblazoned on it. During the ceremony, his mother Queen Elizabeth II said, "This dragon gives you your power, your throne and your own authority." His response to her was, "I am now your Liege-man, and worthy of your earthly worship." Liege is an old English word meaning "Lord". "I am now your Lord-man, and worthy of your earthly worship." Another reference to the red dragon is in Revelations 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Prince Charles is the ONLY person in the world to whom "And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority" can literally be applied to

From a particularly biased source of course but here
www.freewebs.com...

Now, William and Kate own a cottage there so are more frequent visitors than just getting his training but I am sure there was an element of going there to study, your mention of the "learning welsh" sounds about right in Charles case but I am sure the information I had was more than a number of weeks. Did he really need to go to Wales to learn Welsh though?

Another interesting part is that both Charles and William carry the name Arthur and can therefore be crowned King Arthur, Diana herself alluded to Williams potential as a King Arthur who contrary to myth was perhaps actually a tyrant, one theory at least says

It has long been recognized that Arthur best translates as "Bear" in Celtic. A marginal note on a 13th century copy of the "Historia Brittonum", by Nennius(9th century) says that Arthur means "Ursus Horribilis"

This may therefore relate to Urse-Cuneglasus as per this link
www.angelfire.com...

I believe Charles also chose the location himself, itself slightly peculiar being that it is an abandoned castle. I will hopefully dig out a more succient reponse tomorrow, I may have to watch the investiture again too

Apologies, I should have been more prepared for questions and would rather not use sources that bang on about "revelations"

Yeah and someone wanted to spoil the whole thing with a bombing, it got blamed on KGB.

Originally posted by slaine1978
reply to post by XeroOne

 

well i've always beleved the welsh version of king arthur

llyn y fan fawr is supposed to be the origins of the lady in the
lake so i've heard

or is it llyn y fan fach i always get these two mixed up.

I hadnt heard that before nice one!

Both 'fach' (little) and 'fawr' (large) in the same area. I'd guess 'fawr' as its the lager of the two.

Incidentally the red dragon also seems to be related to Arthurian legend

The red Welsh dragon "Y Ddraig Goch" owes its origins to folklore and Arthurian legend. Originating from a serpent representing the Welsh God Dewi, Celtic King Arthur was said to have had a dream about a red dragon (symbolically representing Wales) which slayed a white dragon (which represented the Saxon invaders). In later times a crude red dragon design was adopted by Prince Llywelyn of Gwynedd in the 7th Century and taken into battle by Welsh hero Prince Owain Glyndwr in conflicts with the invading English. In later history, at the Battle of Bosworth, Welsh-born King Henry VII (Henry Tudor, crowned 1485) unfurled the red dragon, which he in turn had adopted as his own emblem. As such, the beloved red dragon has always represented the defiant Welsh nation; iconising Wales's unique cultural and historic heritage as a proud and ancient nation which has long survived external threat. The Welsh dragon is often associated with the motto, "Y Ddraig Goch a ddyry Gychwyn" - or "The red dragon will show the way".

www.welshwales.co.uk...

So essentially he gets his power and his throne from the Welsh God Dewi - Dewi also means David

In the case of Saint David

Rhygyfarch stated that Glastonbury Abbey was amongst the many churches David founded.[4] Around forty years later William of Malmesbury believing the Abbey was older than this, said that David visited Glastonbury intending only to rededicate the Abbey, as well as to donate a travelling altar including a great sapphire. He had a vision of Jesus, who said that "the church had been dedicated long ago by Himself in honour of His Mother, and it was not seemly that it should be re-dedicated by human hands"

Saint David of course was capable of performing miracles just like Jesues, perhaps due to their more "traditional" education, with Jesus the mysteries of Egypt and Saint David it seems a druidic

His best-known miracle is said to have taken place when he was preaching in the middle of a large crowd at the Synod of Brefi: the village of Llanddewi Brefi is said to stand on the spot where the miracle occurred. When those at the back complained that they could not see or hear him the ground on which he stood is reputed to have risen up to form a small hill so that everyone had a good view. A white dove was seen settling on his shoulder — a sign of God's grace and blessing.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by trustnothing


alot of interesting stuff there mate alot i dident know.
i shall have to start reading a bit more about
welsh legends.

reply to post by trustnothing


Th earliest (to my knowledge) root of the myth is from the story of Lludd and Llefelys where Llud buries the fighting dragons under Dinas Emrys (Emrys is the Welsh version of Merlin).

The story is taken up in another tale about King Vortegen who was trying to build a castle on Dinas Emrys but the mountain kept moving and rumling and knocking down the walls. Merlin as a child thought to be of supernatural origin was to sacrificed to appease the mountain. Obviusly Merl wasnt too happy about this and told Votregen to dig in a certain place which uncovered the Dragons fighting. The Red Dragon killed the White Dragon and this was taken as a prophesy that a king would come (the Red Dragon - King Auther) and defeat the Saxons (the White Dragon).

reply to post by DrFaustus


Is that the same Vortigern that invited the Anglo Saxons over to act as mercenaries? If so, i can't imagine he is that popular with Welsh historians!

reply to post by Flavian


not sure but we
all make mistakes lol

I think this thread might actually explain the 'flood' someone mentioned earlier:
Link here...

It seems the UK was part of a larger land mass, connecting it to Europe and Scandinavia, that was submerged around 10,000 years ago.

Originally posted by fakedirt

Originally posted by PrinceDreamer


It could only be due to overall sea levels rising, meaning that there would be other settlements around the British coast from the same period also under water (probably around the mouths of rivers) or the local area suffered from subsidence and generally sunk below the waves, however it would seem logical such an event would trigger destruction on the said buildings and walls.

i am wondering as to your thoughts on what slaine wrote on page two near the top regarding the docking rings being a couple of meters above current sea level coupled with structures found when sea is at low tide. it is an interesting topic indeed.



f.

Sorry only just seen this, hence the late reply..

If anything this goes against subsidence, it would mean the sea levels have actually dropped not risen, other wise the rings would be lower. I think it more likely due to when the original sea wall was built our methods were different when mooring boats, probably the rope was slung to people on top of the wall and it was tied off off by them, this made it easier to account for the different tide levels during the year, which vary greatly around teh coast line of the UK

However that is just supposition on my part being as I have not seen the said wall for myself

this is the wall,
a railway bridge runs over it now.

but it still has 1 or 2 mooring rings a bit further up than this picture
its an old pic ill have to go back down for more.

btw the tide is halfway in in this pic.



but the mooring rings look exactly like this,

www.fotolibra.com...

totaly rusted no way of moveing them,
also holes all the way down the wall where more had once been.

reply to post by slaine1978

Well this is my first time posting a thread so i'll just get on with it.

You're certainly not new to the net. Have you lurked for awhile ? Great first effort ! SnF.

reply to post by randyvs


thanks mate

makeing post's isent realy my thing
anything i find it's certain someone else
has already made a thread about it

and yes been lurking here for a few years
before i final joined.

just reading this thread and it reminded me of one of the baltic sea threads i was reading.
and they mentioned Doggerland,
here is a link with a map. that shows at one time the uk was surround by a lot lager land mass.
and if you look at were wales is, the irish sea use to be land. so it makes sense that there might have been a civilization in that area.
link used in baltic sea thread.


here is the baltic sea thread.

Looks Like The Baltic Sea UFO Could Be Solved.,

here's a wiki
Doggerland

reply to post by Flavian


Yes I think the legend probably got attached to him after he fled to Wales after the Saxons turned on him.

reply to post by hounddoghowlie


Seems to also be one of the hypotheses for Atlantis, another few being off the coast of Ireland, further down off the coast of Cornwall and of course in the Irish sea as an Island lost 3100 BC
en.wikipedia.org...

I also found this city lost on their other side of the UK
en.wikipedia.org...

Dunwich was the capital of East Anglia 1500 years ago but the harbour and most of the town have since disappeared due to coastal erosion. Its decline began in 1286 when a storm surge hit the East Anglian coast, and it was eventually reduced in size to the village it is today.

This talks a bit about sea levels and some myth, interestingly it makes reference to a possible coment strike around the 5th Century AD
www.lundyisleofavalon.co.uk...

These astronomical records include, around the fifth century, mention of "dragons" coming out of the heavens and smashing into the earth. At about the same time, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records how the sun was "dimmed," or how the "stars showed fully nearly half an hour past nine in the morning." At about the same time, tree ring samples from Ireland show that their growth was stunted about the fifth century AD, possibly from lack of sunlight. Saint Patrick, who lived at about the same time, spoke of apocalyptic weather patterns "

I read there are more than 100 Islands/rock formations off the coast of Wales, I will be looking into these, they may have been connected at one point in some cases, the Scilly Isles down off Cornwall were at one point connected to the mainland, until rising seas.

It is recorded that as late as the fourth century, the Scillys, now an archipelago of many islets, was but a single large island. The Scillys.. "were once connected by the now submerged sea-bed to Cornwall." - Snyder - Sub-Roman Britain. In the year 387 Emperor Maximus exiled two Priscillianist heretics to Scilly.

They say in that case the central plain was flooded 400-500AD

It would make sense that a Welsh Island could have been lost around the timeframe given particularly as sea levels have continued to rise,

Early British kingdoms
THE 28 CITIES OF BRITAIN
as listed by Nennius

A couple of the interesting Welsh ones

Caer-Guent is Caerwent (Venta), capital of the British Kingdom named after it, Gwent. Coin hoard deposits of around 425 show continued occupation. According to the Life of St. Tathyw, the town was given to the saint by King Caradog Freichfras to found a monastery, while the King moved out to Portskewett. Several cist graves of St. Tathyw's followers have been discovered around the present church and also around 150 burials outside the East Gate. Coins and metalwork, including 7th century fastening pins, show continued occupation up until the Normans arrived.

Caer-Legeion-guar-Uisc is Caerleon (Isca): a major city in the Kingdom of Gwent that apparently had its own Archbishopric. It is often said to have been one of King Arthur's main courts and the old Roman amphitheatre was known as "King Arthur's Round Table", but there is, as yet, no evidence of Dark Age occupation here. A limited ecclesiastical site might be indicated for the parish church is dedicated to St. Cadog (6th century) who may have founded a monastery here. It has been suggested that the secular settlement was transferred to the nearby hillfort on Lodge Hill (possibly from Llys Hill).

Caer-Segeint is Caernarfon (Segontium), which itself stems from the later Caer-yn-Arfon. Little is known of the old Roman fort during so-called Arthurian times. Tradition says it was the capital of the Kingdom of Gwynedd, as presided over in the early 5th century by Constantine, the son of the Emperor Magnus Maximus, before the Irish invaded and drove him out. His memorial stone once stood just outside the fort. The hypothesis is reinforced by the fact that the parish church, which stands not in the modern town but near the old fort, is dedicated to his brother, St.Peblig.

www.earlybritishkingdoms.com...

However many of the cities listed show decline at the same time, whether this was related to invastion, comet strikes, flooding or some other factors that caused the populations to decline who knows.

Indeed we see the decline of Rome in this era followed by the Saxon expansion. On the decline of Rome

However, the violent nature of the period should not be overlooked, and it is likely that this period was a time of endemic tension, alluded to in all of the written sources. This may have led to the deaths of a substantial number of the British population. There are also references to plagues. Laycock (Britannia the Failed State 2008) suggests tribal conflict, possibly even starting before 410, may have sliced up much of Britain and helped destroy the economy. The evidence from land use suggests a decline in production, which might be a sign of population decline.

The fifth and sixth centuries in Britain are marked by a sharp discontinuity in town life

Perhaps this is simply less evidence as no more Rome or related to an event of some kind,

We also see referenace to an event of some kind in 540,

There is evidence for climate change in the fifth century, with conditions turning cooler and wetter. This shortened the growing season and made uplands unsuited to growing grain. Dendrochronology reveals a particular climatic event in 540.

en.wikipedia.org...

And of course many Britons emigrated to the continent in this and into the next century, often attributed to the Saxon invasion, perhaps due also to climating changes? rising seas? a declined population due to a comet strike?

Edit, this old National Geographic article links the dimming/climate change of that period with a Volcano near the Equator, which seems to have caused dimming in the northern hemisphere and ash on both sides of the globe
news.nationalgeographic.com...

Great post man , found it very interesting.
As another Welsh man , the areas you have mentioned are familiar to me,
Great story , will keep an eye on this thread.