Obamacare amounts to slavery..., page 3

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reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:49 AM by Peruvianmonk

reply to post by ldyserenity

You and the rich agree.

No police, fire, sanitation, road maintenance for you then.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:52 AM by LifeInDeath

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by LifeInDeath
reply to post by Masterjaden

Slavery is forced servitude, nobody is forced to be a doctor or nurse, EMT or paramedic nor are they forced to remain one and can retire or change careers at any time. Nobody is coerced into rendering healthcare, they are all doing it of their own free will, thus they are not slaves.

Your logic is highly, HIGHLY flawed.

No it is not... Break it down into premises and try to prove any of the premises false.. You can't.. It is perfectly valid...

They absolutely ARE coerced into rendering health care. Any doctor who renders medicare or medicaid is coerced into providing a service for a forced at the point of a gun price.

The point is not whether they actually are or not. The point is that if the argument is made that healthcare is a RIGHT, then it is forced servitude. Because you are arguing that someone has the right to force another to provide them a service.

Healthcare CANNOT be a RIGHT without forced servitude.

So the question is does OBamacare infer that Healthcare is a right? If it does, then it amounts to slavery. If it doesn't then why are people advocating for the population to be forced into providing it as though it is???

Jaden

Do you even know anyone who works as a medical professional? My best friend is one of the top search and rescue paramedics in the world. If he's in a situation where he deems it too dangerous for him or his team to render aid without causing undue risk to their own lives and health, he has every right to not go into a situation and render aid. He's not a slave, he's not under gun point (financially or otherwise) to render such aid. In fact, he doesn't even get paid for the work he does during disasters and has to pay his own way and for his own supplies in many cases. If he encounters a dangerous patient, like someone who is obviously on drugs, or someone who might be suffering from something so virulent that touching or being close to them could endanger his life, he is not under any obligation to render healthcare to them. Nobody can force him to render healthcare to anyone.

Now, all that being said, when we're hanging out together there have been at least half a dozen situations where someone has fallen ill, or we've passed an accident scene, etc. where he's gone and rendered aid to people free of charge because that's his job, that's what he does. He doesn't make someone who is lying in a gutter bleeding show him a credit card, proof of insurance or whip out some cash to pay for the bandages he'll pull from the medical kit he always keeps in the trunk of his car. That's just not the reality of the world, that's not why he, nor others do these things.

People that go into the medical profession to make tons of money become plastic surgeons, and not the kind that specialize in burn victims and the like, they do breast implants and nose jobs, all elective, all paid for by rich clients.

"Forced at the point of a gun price?" That is the most insane reasoning I've ever heard. People who do these jobs will continue to be paid good wages for the work that they do. Most people are already getting their healthcare paid via insurance, like my mom who just had much of her colon removed by a top John's Hopkins doctor and all she had to pay was the small deductible on what was probably a $100,000 or $200,000 operation (she walked out of the hospital 4 days later, btw). How will it be different under a healthcare plan mandated by the government? It's still insurance. Had she not had insurance it would have meant either her just dying, or selling the house, the family going broke, me probably moving back home to help out since both parents are retired and my dad probably having to get a job as a WalMart greeter, or something instead of enjoying his retirement. With the insurance our lives haven't been ruined by this operation, nor by the open heart surgery my dad had 18 months ago. See where this is going?

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:53 AM by Masterjaden

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Masterjaden

The postman is not asked on some days to provide the service for free... The burger king employee is not forced to provide you the service for free.

Jaden

Where do you get the Idea that Doc's will not get Paid?????????????????????????????/

The more you answer people , the more you defeat your arguement.

Doc's working in a Socialized System are paid annually in the Hundreds of Thousands.

If you want to Solve the Medical Issue, Take away Medicine for Profit,

Healtcare for Profit is a Crime Against Humanity.

Pay Or Die.

Ya , thats a good system.
edit on 1-7-2012 by Tw0Sides because: (no reason given)

Of course it is a good system... Because either way it's pay or die....

Either you're paying for your OWN medical care or dying, or your being told to pay for someone else's medical care or die...

Either way it's pay or die, but only one of those is based on your own responsibility. Your healthcare is not MY responsibility unless I choose it to be. MY healthcare is not YOUR responsibility unless YOU choose it to be.

When the government is forcing me to pay for YOUR healthcare, they are putting responsibility in the wrong persons hands and they are doing it at the point of a gun. There is only ONE of those entities authorized to use the point of a gun in America's system of government and that is the people.

Jaden

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:54 AM by michaelbrux

and another thing...a doctor is a beneficiary of the system just like everyone else.

the doctor doesn't build the hospital, he didn't mine the earth to procure the materials that comprise the tools of his trade. his mercedes spews exhaust into the air which his future patients will inhale. the waste he produces in the conduct of his business occupies a landfill and poisons the earth just like everyone elses.

a doctor would realize, being so intelligent, that all he's is doing is helping to sustain the very system that created him.

thus, taking care of oneself is slavery; by OPs logic.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:56 AM by Masterjaden

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by ldyserenity

You and the rich agree.

No police, fire, sanitation, road maintenance for you then.

I don't need the police all they do is trample on my rights. I freely agree to pay taxes in the form of registration fees for my ability to use the roads.

Sanitation is taken care of BY me in the form of a septic tank, and well water, I don't NEED the government. I am not entitled to their services. They NEED me though and everyone else.

Jaden

p.s. I'll be gone now, I'm going on vacation, that I am paying for myself, not on the people's dole.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:56 AM by Open_Minded Skeptic

Originally posted by Masterjaden
Again, those people are volunteering to provide those services, they are not being forced to provide them at the point of a gun.

Show me the section of the law that states that a given Doctor can be routed out of bed (or anywhere else for that matter) at the point of a gun and forced to go provide medical services to somebody.

I'll need to see that law before I'll accept such an argument. And probably not then, either.

Starting to get the picture at this point yet, that's rhetorical, people like you are not likely to EVER get the picture because you believe you are entitled to something...

People like me? Assume much? Your ignorance is showing.

You are entitled to nothing, but what your labors and wits can provide you.
Jaden

Show me where I have said otherwise. I am pointing out the absuridity that Obamacare = slavery. Haven't said anything about anything regarding being entitled.

Back to the main point, show us all the language in the law that says doctors will be dragged out at gun point to provide medical service. That is a pretty big deal, should be easy to find. We'll wait. (and wait and wait most likely)

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:57 AM by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Either you're paying for your OWN medical care or dying, or your being told to pay for someone else's medical care or die...

Jaden

Your sentence makes NO sense.

The Brainwashing runs deep in this one.

I'm out, can't argue with stupid, you got the experience.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:59 AM by Peruvianmonk

reply to post by Masterjaden

Well done on having a job that pays for that vacation and the rights to have a holiday within that job. Once again you're alrite Jack, and that's all that matters right?

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 10:59 AM by LifeInDeath

Originally posted by Masterjaden
I am by no means rich. Hell, I'm barely the low end of middle class. I have paid out of pocket for every emergency room visit I have taken my daughter to or wife to.

I do not accept that others should have to take care of me. You have no RIGHT to insist that I take care of YOU!!!!

Then you are just a fool and you are lucky that none of those visits would have cost you $100k, $200k or $500k for the healthcare services rendered, something very possible in catastrophic situations.

When the day comes that you or one of your loved ones needs some truly major and expensive surgery (and it's likely to happen sometimes), are you going to stand proudly by when they either die painfully because you can't afford to pay for their healthcare, or will you gladly go bankrupt and become destitute because that's what it will cost to save them?

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:01 AM by narwahl

Originally posted by Masterjaden
p.s. I'll be gone now, I'm going on vacation, that I am paying for myself, not on the people's dole.

Actually it was paid for by the customers of your employer....

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:03 AM by Peruvianmonk

reply to post by narwahl

Where he has a contract with the right to a holiday. The employer is a slave.

Seriously, what a dick.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:04 AM by GareyGaia

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Masterjaden

The postman is not asked on some days to provide the service for free... The burger king employee is not forced to provide you the service for free.

Jaden

Where do you get the Idea that Doc's will not get Paid?????????????????????????????/

The more you answer people , the more you defeat your arguement.

Doc's working in a Socialized System are paid annually in the Hundreds of Thousands.

If you want to Solve the Medical Issue, Take away Medicine for Profit,

Healtcare for Profit is a Crime Against Humanity.

Pay Or Die.

Ya , thats a good system.
edit on 1-7-2012 by Tw0Sides because: (no reason given)

Agreed. We still live in a society in which doctors too need to get paid so this is idealistic. It is immoral to make what should be a common wealth - medical care into such a business as to deny help to those who need it. Idealistically all knowledge and technology should be common wealth shared with humanity for the advancement of humanity. Its just business as they say, when doing the wrong thing offers its rewards or not doing the right thing in lack of reward.

This society is built on money. We cannot go to someone and say we are going to take all the money you have been working for your entire life so that we can redistribute the wealth. As unbalanced as a system it is we cannot get off money to do the right things. This society is DEPENDENT on money. In nature most creatures are DEPENDENT on food, water, and a healthy environment to survive. With humans we substituted/sacrificed in some cases the environment, food, and water for an artificial need MONEY.

I am not saying money is evil. Just like I am not saying guns are evil. Its how you use it which decides that. We obviously have people in the world using money as a weapon or irresponsibly. Again idealistically their is what a civilized society should be like and then theirs human society. We are in a MATRIX and by that i mean we are in a system that leaves us DEPENDENT on the system. The reality is that we need to transition to a more sustainable and humane society. When we become less dependent on the system such growing our own food, taking care of our health, and becoming informed citizens we lessen the burden on the rest of society. The more people who transition to a more sustainable lifestyle the better our future begins to look.

edit on 1-7-2012 by GareyGaia because: typo

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:05 AM by magnetik

i dont get why people have such an issue, doctors are not forced to do any thing for free, all it does is provide care for people that cant afford it, they pay according to their income and i assume the balance is supplemented by the goverment. You do have a choice. you keep your own health care or get obamacare. Its quite simple from my understanding.

Before any nation can move forward I think this is a basic necessity

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:09 AM by habitforming

Originally posted by EvilSadamClone
reply to post by Seraph Sephiroth

Charity at the point of a gun is not true charity. Theft is theft, regardless of what nomenclature people try to hide it under.

I am forced to pay for the people that cannot and do not pay as it is. This changes that. I want that changed.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:10 AM by Masterjaden

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Masterjaden

Well done on having a job that pays for that vacation and the rights to have a holiday within that job. Once again you're alrite Jack, and that's all that matters right?

Actually I don't have a job. I got laid off and started my own business because no one owes me anything.

I'm not alright. I'm not alright with people taking my librty with abuse of police powers and with corruption of my government. I am far from alright.

Jaden

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:11 AM by EvilSadamClone

reply to post by Peruvianmonk

Taxation without representation is theft.

However, in today's society, we don't have any real representation, so our current tax system I personally consider theft, even more so because we have no choice but to pay or we'll get thrown in jail and have our property taken away.. I think that if our IRS forms had a few additional questions regarding where we'd like to spend our money would be more representation than just our congress critters and possibly even give the American people far more representation in our government than we actually do.

Other than that, i am not against taxes. Some taxes are need to run a country. Every country needs an infrastructure for a good economy, and we all need a military to protect our shores from foreign invaders and a police force to protect our citizen's rights and keep order.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:17 AM by Peruvianmonk

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

Yeh fair enough on your lack of representation. Both of your political parties are quite reprehensible, with some exceptions within these parties.

Although your military is hardly a defender of your shores. It is financed to dominate the globe, not for your protection.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:18 AM by GogoVicMorrow

reply to post by Masterjaden

Sorry, but that is ridiculius and silly. I mean I'm no fan of this healthcare plan it is terrible, but free healthcare is good. If you want to complain about being a slave complain about the income tax and having tax money taken to make bombs. Doctors will still be getting paid extremely well under the healthcare plan and its not like it forces them to work. If you really said it was slavery I am embarrassed for you because you sounded pretty slow there.

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:24 AM by narwahl

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Masterjaden

Well done on having a job that pays for that vacation and the rights to have a holiday within that job. Once again you're alrite Jack, and that's all that matters right?

Actually I don't have a job. I got laid off and started my own business because no one owes me anything.

I'm not alright. I'm not alright with people taking my librty with abuse of police powers and with corruption of my government. I am far from alright.

Jaden

... and if one of your customers refuses to pay you, will you go to court, expect a fair judgement, and have some other guy enforce it for you?
Should you have a right to go to court and settle the matter? (Hint: you do have a right to the judges services)

reply posted on 1-7-2012 @ 11:29 AM by LifeInDeath

Originally posted by Masterjaden
I don't need the police all they do is trample on my rights. I freely agree to pay taxes in the form of registration fees for my ability to use the roads.

Sometimes police are necessary. When there has been a murder, I really am happy there are homicide detectives out there trying to find the killer.

Your registration fees do not supply enough money to pay for those roads. Your taxes pay for most of that. Without taxes, your registration fees would be much, much higher, and since very little of that would be paid by higher taxes on the wealthy or on corporate taxes (there aren't THAT many company cars), I think you'd be stunned when it costs you $5000 to register for your driver's license.

Sanitation is taken care of BY me in the form of a septic tank, and well water, I don't NEED the government. I am not entitled to their services. They NEED me though and everyone else.

Not everyone lives in a place that has septic tanks or well water, some of us live in places where such systems are quite impossible.

I think I've detected your problem here, you live in a very rural area, which is cool, I like the country too, but I think you are not used to the communal aspects and needs of living in urban or even suburban areas. Many people prefer to live in such areas, there are great benefits for those who enjoy them. There are some sacrifices as well, and some of those sacrifices include spending a bit of money via taxes to pay for infrastructure to keep these cities livable. I pay taxes so that I can get to and from work every day on the subway and not have to own a car. I pay taxes to maintain the very clean public water system this city has, and the police, firemen and much of the city's medics who protect me daily.

My taxes also pay for the ferry boats from Staten Island that I've never once taken in my life, but which tens of thousands a day use to get to work here...those boats don't directly benefit me, but I accept the need for them for the society I live in as a whole.

edit on 7/1/2012 by LifeInDeath because: (no reason given)