Obamacare amounts to slavery...

reply to post by habitforming


Wow really??? More excuses why you won't go read that thread. I guess you really don't want an answer. It ABSOLUTELY is on topic in this thread. This thread is about what rights are and where government gets their authority, so it is completely on topic...

Also, that thread was long, I wasn't about to quote TWO full posts worth of information, since as you probably know, it is against the rules and it isn't prudent to do so.

Of COURSE I want people to go read it. It is IMPORTANT that people understand how this nation and the government there of is granted its authority because many people are under misconceptions as to where government GETS their authority.

Since most people have difficulty reading our founding documents that explain it, I thought I would create a thread using modern English to describe it, also throwing in some quotes of our founding fathers and the documents that founded this once great nation.

Jaden

Please do yourself a favor and read the thread...

Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I mean leave society. If you dislike it so much and you aren't willing to participate leave it. Simple. We don't need you and you, obviously don't need us so, just leave. Eschew the protections and benefits and leave.

Sounds fair to me. I'll leave your society alone when it leaves me alone.

Nice try on trying to throw the quasi racist/elitist moniker onto me though.

"Racist"? I don't know your race any more than you know mine. In order for there to be "racism" involved, wouldn't race have to come into play somewhere?

Every word that drips from you speaks troll so there is no more reason to discuss. You aren't having a logical discussion. You are simply taking a controversial view and flogging it to death.

Fair enough. I suppose I shouldn't wait up in hopes that you'll logically post those links to the posts where you claimed I said things I never said, eh?

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu

Care to match degrees?

No, it wasn't on anyone else's dime.

You were paying your own way in kindergarten? 1st grade?
Guess what. I do not believe you.

Your belief system is not my problem. sounds like a personal problem to me.

Now what has that to do with insurance purchasing?

Is this your clever way of weaseling out of researching the IPABs? By attacking my education, you hope to prevent your own?

It has to do with your overall load of crap about being an island unto yourself.

that's what they call a "tangent", or "avoidance issue" or, more properly, an "ad hominem" attack, which is a logical fallacy - attacking the messenger rather than the message..

It's ok. you don't have to debate the issues. We've pretty well figured out that you're out of ammo on the issues.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
reply to post by nenothtu

 

We are NOT anarcho-capitalists any more than any American is. We simply want our government to function legitimately, legally.

s'ok. I don't know what one is, anyhow. I never cared to get into all the finer points of the fancy labels intended solely to segregate people into neat little boxes. I just climb out of the box.

The government was formed with the consent of the people and it has veered away from the consent of the governed.

When people believe that the government derives its power from itself, and grants the rights to the people, it is obvious that we have strayed too far from the consent of the governed.

Sad, but true. Even sadder is the people who feel a need to be led, and have their "rights" issued by a government, because they are incapable of leading themselves.

You cannot consent to give up unalienable rights, especially from the point of a gun as we currently do.

Correct. they can neither be given up nor taken - they can only suffer a failure of exercise.

This means that all authority of the government is illegal when it is not derived from the consent of the governed and when the usurpations and raping of Liberty evinces a design to deprive the people of granting the authority, there is an answer to that question and it was the basis for the founding of our once great nation.

Our founders were some of the most intelligent people ever to grace the planet. They foresaw this very occurrence. They warned us against it, yet people moronically state that they couldn't possibly foresee the advances of technology, warmachinery, etc....

They didn't need to. They knew all too well the heart of man. These people are fighting on the wrong side without realizing it. Forcing your fellow man to help when they are struggling themselves only breeds animosity..

they could not forsee technological advances, but technology isn't the issue. basic rights are, and they could definitely forsee interpersonal interactions, regardless of technology. Some things never change. Trying to shift the argument to technological achievements denies the essential humanity of the situation.

It's like trying to fight racism by pointing out our differences. It's ridiculous on its' face.

You cannot force people to help others by denying one group their Liberty.

There were only three things that our founders stated were unalienable rights, Life, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS.

I capitalized LIBERTY because it is so often overlooked. Liberty includes all of the bill of rights. Liberty includes the right of the people to own property, and to defend oneself and to speak one's mind without being put on a list by those we have granted authority over us. It includes the freedom to practice religion, whether that is the religion of the paradigms of science, Christianity, or Judaism or whatever. That one word in the Declaration of Independence is SO powerful. It means so much.

Precisley, with the caveat that those 3 basic unalienable rights have an entire support structure of rights themselves. For example, the right to life hinges on the right to defense of it.

I want everyone who celebrated the 4th of July yesterday to think what that was you were celebrating.

Those fireworks were CELEBRATING the people KILLING their oppressors.

They represent the explosions, the bombs bursting in air, maiming and killing those who would oppress them and steal the authority that they were not granted.

Remember that today and think on it. Because it is quite possible that the same thing will be necessary in the near future and you will have to decide if in the future the people are celebrating your risking your life for freedom or you were sacrificing yours, theirs and everyone else's LIBERTY so that people who have had the opportunity to pursue their happiness could be GIVEN things from other people at the point of a gun.

Jaden

I volunteered to work last night, and let someone else go celebrate. As I told my sister, I'll celebrate Independence Day when we are independent again.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Masterjaden


It is not a simple answer I was trying to be thorough....

That is great but if you cannot cram the answer to "who?" into this thread somewhere then you overthought it.

read it again - he gave his answer to "who". What I want to know is why you have to have someone else issue your rights to you, regardless of who you believe did it? Why do you require an external power to authorize your existence?

Yes because the public paying for somebodys medical care, because he got sick although he couldnt afford it, so that people can make money off workers they pay minimum wage, is better.

"Obamacar amounts to slavery"? Haven't you been paying attention? We passed into slavery a long time ago, a very long time ago in fact. Thats Ok were on this train together and it's time we got off on the next stop or better yet, I gonna pull the emergency cable, brace yourself. We get off here. Freedom is now. Fear nothing.

Originally posted by mr3dboot
reply to post by Masterjaden

 

For anyone who seriously like Obamacare, I have an idea for you.
Go work hard and upon receiving your paycheck, take $100 and send it to me or any other American citizen at random. Better yet, do it or I will fine you. Pay the fine or go to jail. Oh, by the way, you will do this for every single paycheck you ever receive for the course of your lifetime. Almost forgot...your married right? Wife or husband also has a job? Great, I'll take $100 from them too. Nothing you can do about it. Go ahead, try and stop me.

Forcibly taking from one to give to someone else, is called robbery. You may refer to to it as a tax, but it's still robbery none the less.

When people give to others because they choose to, no problem. Do it under the fear of fines and jailtime and then you have an eventual revolt, probably armed.

Just wait and see.

You already do this when your tax money goes to corporate welfare and bank bailouts, not to mention all the money corporations keep from paying you by keeping wages depressed. I bet you are forking out a lot more money for those things than you ever would for this healthcare plan.

What if:

1. Everyone who was mentally capable was given a free education, including medical education to the level of a GP? Don't laugh, it's not that hard and learning about how your body works is a really good idea. It needn't take any money, the information is available freely in every library in the world and over the internet, nor does it take as long as they make it out to be now. If a reasonably literate teenager started now, they could have an education comparable to an internist's in a year's time, easy. Add a few months to a year for any specialty you might be interested in.

2. What if, concurrent with this more educated populace, a few people were very well trained; these would be the surgeons, etc. Instead of a fee for their services, what if they were simply given extra social respect, plus maybe a few extra perks, for their services (BTW, there are robotic surgeons out there now, and they're every bit as good as humans...)

3. What if people spent, say, half their day engaged in a 'vocation' serving the community and by extension, their own needs, and the rest of their time was their own? Everyone happily busy and daily engaged according to their own interests, skills and life-stage? What if you could change vocations as you became interested in different kinds of subjects? What if you had an incredible amount of free time to read, learn, travel, invent, take care of your own children yourself rather than farming it out to low paid, possibly abusive, babysitters and teachers? What if everyone grew a goodly amount of their own food aquaponically and every yard was dedicated to food production rather than a useless silly lawn?

4. What if people didn't work for money in order to 'survive' but rather everyone was granted, by virtue of living in a true civilization, enough free food, housing, clothes, medical care, education and travel? I'm not talking luxuries, I'm talking nobody starves or goes homeless... Needs instead of manufactured-by-virtue-of-advertising 'wants'. And by extension of this thought, what if there were no need for money, and no such thing as debt or interest payments?

5. What if our governments and our news media hadn't spent the last 2000 years lying to us, but rather truth-telling was as normal as breathing? What if we based our life and societal decisions on the truth as best we knew it, rather than a pack of lies built on fantasies built on fairy tales and legends, all to the service of a few 1 percenters? What if we hadn't poisoned the planet with hundreds of nuclear tests during the 50s and 60s like fookin' idiots? (The cancer rate has doubled since then). What if wars were the unthinkable failure of diplomacy and discussion that they are, rather than a transparent excuse for that same 1% to make money on blood, death and destruction? (What if they gave a war and the 99% did not go...?)

6. What if certain plants weren't considered to be 'illegal', but instead were investigated and commonly used for their possible medicinal or mind-expansion properties? What if people were not put in cages for daring to think differently from the (slight) majority about such plants?

To answer your question, OP, yes, in a civilized society everyone would get medical care, but people would also be responsible much more interactively for their own health. I've worked in the medical field for over 40 years and the level of ignorance amongst people is appalling. Most doctors spend their days telling people who never will to lose weight and stop smoking; putting little splints on small broken bones, reassuring people with a normal cold that they don't have pneumonia, and mostly being gateways for lab tests and the pharmaceutical industry, which produces, for the most part, drugs for conditions we didn't know we had until the adverts come out... Take away antibiotics, X-rays, MRI and CT scanners, and our medical knowledge really hasn't advanced much in over 100 years.

(BTW, the 'civilization' I described above is, in part, what the Zeitgeist Movement is advocating. Look into it if you find it interesting, since the fake civilization we have now is going off a cliff along with all the lemmings).

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

What would you know about educational?
Self made men like yourselves are educated nowhere by noone.
Surely you did not go to schools...on someone else' dime?

I know this was directed at nenothtu and not me, but I have three degrees, including an MBA and I did NOT get them on someone else's dime. There are some people who are willing to work and earn their OWN way.

Jaden

Those degrees must have done you wonders then since you missed me asking and not getting an answer from Neno about just how exactly he funded his first grade.
How about you tell me how you paid for kindergarten through lets say 7th grade.
I am all ears.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
HE IS the one participating...

The people that aren't participating are the ones that want to pay for other people's stuff with everyone else's work.

Participating in American society means pursuing your own happiness. Not GETTING it, PURSUING it and especially not having it handed to you from someon else at the point of a gun.

Participating in society in America also means ensuring that our Liberty and Life and every OTHER member of society's Liberty and Life is maintained against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

Liberty lovers are not domestic enemies, those who would label Liberty lovers AS domestic enemies are.

Jaden

And all you islands unto yourselves do this "participating" all alone?
No need for doctors making sure you do not walk through a swath of disease ridden folks wherever you go, roads, police, firefighters, military, etc. etc. You guys have no need for any of that stuff, right? Because you are participating in society?

Explain this to me.

Originally posted by habitforming

Those degrees must have done you wonders then since you missed me asking and not getting an answer from Neno about just how exactly he funded his first grade.

I'll be happy to answer that for you just as soon as you can demonstrate the relevance to the topic at hand - i.e. "Obamacare", as I have already asked, and you have thus far failed to demonstrate.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

What would you know about educational?
Self made men like yourselves are educated nowhere by noone.
Surely you did not go to schools...on someone else' dime?

I know this was directed at nenothtu and not me, but I have three degrees, including an MBA and I did NOT get them on someone else's dime. There are some people who are willing to work and earn their OWN way.

Jaden

Those degrees must have done you wonders then since you missed me asking and not getting an answer from Neno about just how exactly he funded his first grade.
How about you tell me how you paid for kindergarten through lets say 7th grade.
I am all ears.

Have you ever heard of private school???

Not all school is paid for at the point of a gun...

I'm not saying that I went to private schools, I'm just saying that your assumption that someone HAD to get their schooling paid for by other people is farsical.

Also, just as an aside...

Using resources available does not make you a hypocrite.

A fool turns down services available to him, but it is an evil man who implements them through an illegitimate means or does not try to change an illegitimate means of making them available.

Jaden

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Masterjaden
HE IS the one participating...

The people that aren't participating are the ones that want to pay for other people's stuff with everyone else's work.

Participating in American society means pursuing your own happiness. Not GETTING it, PURSUING it and especially not having it handed to you from someon else at the point of a gun.

Participating in society in America also means ensuring that our Liberty and Life and every OTHER member of society's Liberty and Life is maintained against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

Liberty lovers are not domestic enemies, those who would label Liberty lovers AS domestic enemies are.

Jaden

And all you islands unto yourselves do this "participating" all alone?
No need for doctors making sure you do not walk through a swath of disease ridden folks wherever you go, roads, police, firefighters, military, etc. etc. You guys have no need for any of that stuff, right? Because you are participating in society?

Explain this to me.

When a free society determines the need for services, they pool together to provide those services. They do not force participation, they ask for it.

My dad had a 20 acre property in the county. It was not in a city. The entire neighborhood had a series of dirt roads. Everyone could benefit from paving the roads, so the community got together and pitched in and my dad, being a contractor did the work and ate the majority of the costs.

There were several of the people who benefited from the roads that did not pitch in. There were several that wished for the road to be paved to their driveways that didn't get their way but still contributed.

When society determines that there is a need, not all will agree that the need exists and not all will choose to contribute even though they may benefit.

That is the nature of a free society. You cannot force them to contribute as, again, that is tantamount to slavery.

No man has the authority to enslave another. No man has the authority to force another to contribute, that is extortion and no man has the authority to take another's property.

The excuse that the U.S. govt does it and has done it for a long time is NOT a valid excuse, all that is, is an illustration of why the U.S. govt has failed the people.

Usurpations will only be tolerated for so long before people grow tired of them.

Where is another U.S. now when the U.S. becomes the next Nazi Germany? There isn't one. All there is, is the American People.

Don't allow yourself to become the jews being carted off to death camps because that IS where we are headed.

Jaden

Originally posted by Masterjaden


Have you ever heard of private school???

Not all school is paid for at the point of a gun...

It is not paid for by the 5 and 6 year olds attending though is it?

I'm not saying that I went to private schools, I'm just saying that your assumption that someone HAD to get their schooling paid for by other people is farsical.

And then you admit you have no argument because your school was indeed paid for by other people.
I did ask Neno and you how you paid for 1st grade, not how did someone choose to pay for it for you. You read that didnt you?

Also, just as an aside...

Using resources available does not make you a hypocrite.

It does when you say you have no need for them and did not benefit from them.
Those degrees seem really worthless right about now.

A fool turns down services available to him, but it is an evil man who implements them through an illegitimate means or does not try to change an illegitimate means of making them available.

Jaden

A hypocrite derides those same services after enjoying them and even goes so far as to suggest no one else ever get them.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by habitforming

Those degrees must have done you wonders then since you missed me asking and not getting an answer from Neno about just how exactly he funded his first grade.

I'll be happy to answer that for you just as soon as you can demonstrate the relevance to the topic at hand - i.e. "Obamacare", as I have already asked, and you have thus far failed to demonstrate.

Go back to the post where I asked you and you ignored and see the relevance for yourself. Seems like you need a lot of handholding for someone with no need for anyone.

IT WAS A DIRECT RESPONSE TO YOU. So I guess about now we need to wonder what the relevance was when you brought it up.

obama has nothing to do with slavery, for it was put in place long before he became dictator. slavery has been around forever, and will prolly be around forever, it just changes places and masses.

FOR ALL YOUR INFORMATION !

1. No politician of the House of Representatives or the Congress who voted in favor of this monstrosity of a Bill of Law ever read it in full.

2. By Hidden Sentence.... All Muslims shall be exempt from the Fine or the Tax but will still receive full medical benefits paid by the rest.

3. By Hidden Sentence.... All Illegal Immigrants shall be exempt from the Fine or the Tax but will still receive full medical benefits paid by the rest.

4. By Hidden Sentence.... All Native Americans shall be exempt from the Fine or the Tax but will still receive full medical benefits paid by the rest.

5. By Hidden Sentence.... All "Approved Unions" shall be exempt from the Fine or the Tax but will still receive full medical benefits paid by the rest.

So the rest of you Americans, white, black, asian, or other get to pay for all the above for the rest of your life.

The Congress shall have no say what so ever in all Future Orders, Directives, Fines, Taxes, etc, because that full Authority of what Taxes on Who shall be Implemented now rests fully on the Secretary of Human Services. Of which if that is an Obama Appoineted Person you can only guess what they will do beyond the boundaries of the Congres or the Courts to Stop Them.

And some of you were pressuring your Representatives to Vote In Favor Of This !

Go Read the Bill In Full Yourself !!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't Rely on any talking points, go read it. now

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


If you think you have proof that national healthcare systems caused the recent economic problems, show me.

reply to post by Masterjaden

Why is murder illegal??? Because we have the unalienable right to life endowed on us by our creator, and not you, the government or the police have the authority to take that right.. That is why murder is illegal.

You are changing the topic. I said the government is tasked with protecting negative rights, you denied it, and I then showed that the police (a government institution) is tasked with enforcing the ban on murder (thus with protecting the right to live), which shows your assertion was incorrect.