Obamacare amounts to slavery...

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by Eurisko2012

 

There are not death panels you intolerable fool! Prove, with actual data from the actual law where it states that a panel of doctors/lawyers/politicians will decide whether or not a person will get care or death. Prove it or shut up.

"Death Panel" is a populist name descriptive of the function, rather than the euphemistic name given it by the government, which is "Independent Payment Advisory Board". You can research it on your own from there.

Yes, it's the - Independent Payment Advisory Board -.

Gov. Sarah Palin calls - iPab.

If iPab doesn't smile at you then they will send you home with a pain pill.

---------------
ObamaCare is 2 tier system that mirrors the NHS in Great Britain.

Tier 1: The rich receive the very best care - immediately -.

The rich can make direct payments for medical procedures performed. - no insurance-

Tier 2: You get thrown into the ObamaCare Pit.

Fewer doctors plus millions more added to the system translates into very long

lines to wait in. - Take a number & Good luck -

If you don't want to wait 3 months to see a doctor then fly to Mexico.

reply to post by Maslo


I agree that Obamacare is a bad law, and would further argue that in practical terms (independent of the philosophical and legalistic problems) it is unsustainable, but the OP is not mine.

I may be an "Anarcho-capitalist", or I may not be. I don't really know. What I DO know is that I just want to be left alone to live and die in peace, and Obamacare has provisions to disturb that peace.

One alternative, I suppose, is to simply stop accepting any money at all, so there is no income for them to tax and no requirement, therefore, to report my insurance status. That's doable, and I have plans to be entirely off the grid within a couple of years. I'm around 90% there already. No bills, no bank, no credit cards, no driver's license, no paper trail. What I have to decide at this point is to stand and fight it out, and make of myself a target, or just walk on.

The decision is likely to boil down to principle.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

What would you know about educational?
Self made men like yourselves are educated nowhere by noone.
Surely you did not go to schools...on someone else' dime?

I find that people who are pro-obamacare to be very defensive and angry when discussing healthcare

Do you know what a right is?
If something is a right then govt. must give it to you

So if healthcare is a right then govt. gives it to you, and if govt. gives it to you then THE PEOPLE pay for it

So you are forcing other people to pay for your healthcare, forcing others is wrong

You think you are taking the moral ground but you are not, you are also forcing low-income families that can barely afford groceries to contribute as well, and in no way is that moral.

Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by Eurisko2012

 

Yes. It has huge taxes. Americans pay some of the lowest taxes of any civilized country. It is time we started taking care of our people. Get over it. Pay your share to live in your society or get out. Simple as that.

Do you mean "get out" of your society, or "get out" of my country? One is eminently doable, and the other will bring you much grief when you come to put me out.

Like it or not our government is part of us. It should be forming programs like this. Should have done it decades ago. The same goes for education. It is shameful that it costs a fortune to get an education.

No, it should not. The job of government is to govern. That's why it is called a "government". Your job is to financially support it's governing. It is not the government's job to financially support YOU.

We are falling apart as a country in large part because we are so horribly self centered that we refuse to see the suffering all around us. The only time most people help someone is if there is something to gain by it. IF we continue down this path we will fall.

Where I live, I see suffering every single day. I don't "refuse to see it", I face it head on. I alleviate it as much as I can. Obamacare would effectively end my ability to do so, were I to follow it. I've never, ever asked for or expected a return for what I do, much less a gain from it.

If we, as a country, have any hope of survival in the coming decades we MUST rally together. We MUST take care of our own people and strengthen ourselves. To do otherwise will only hasten our demise. Call it socialism all you like. I couldn't care less what title you assign to it. The fact remains that we will come together or we will fall.

We will fall any way. This country is already past the point of no return, and accelerating in the downward spiral. especially over the past 20 years or so. No country lasts forever, and we have run our course. There is no fix, there is only potential for a restart, hopefully learning from the serious socialist and fascist mistakes made in the past century. yes, both socialist and fascist mistakes have been made. Obamacare, for example, is fascist, not socialist.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I find that people who are pro-obamacare to be very defensive and angry when discussing healthcare

Do you know what a right is?
If something is a right then govt. must give it to you

So if healthcare is a right then govt. gives it to you, and if govt. gives it to you then THE PEOPLE pay for it

So you are forcing other people to pay for your healthcare, forcing others is wrong

You think you are taking the moral ground but you are not, you are also forcing low-income families that can barely afford groceries to contribute as well, and in no way is that moral.

It's all part of their master plan.

Womb to the tomb - healthcare -.

Womb to the tomb - groceries - .....- Food Stamps -.

Be dependent not independent. Self- reliance is blasphemy.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

What would you know about educational?
Self made men like yourselves are educated nowhere by noone.
Surely you did not go to schools...on someone else' dime?

Care to match degrees?

No, it wasn't on anyone else's dime.

Now what has that to do with insurance purchasing?

Is this your clever way of weaseling out of researching the IPABs? By attacking my education, you hope to prevent your own?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

What would you know about educational?
Self made men like yourselves are educated nowhere by noone.
Surely you did not go to schools...on someone else' dime?

Care to match degrees?

No, it wasn't on anyone else's dime.

Now what has that to do with insurance purchasing?

Is this your clever way of weaseling out of researching the IPABs? By attacking my education, you hope to prevent your own?

It's an old trick. - Shoot the messenger. -

Ignore the insurance purchasing issue and just change the game.

Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by mr3dboot

 

We ALL must do our part if we wish to be a successful society. By YOUR logic we should just take care of ourselves and to hell with everyone else. Well, I hate to break it to you but someday you WILL need someone to take care of you too. Should we extend your ideals to that point as well and just let you die?

I do my part. I do not acknowledge your authority to determine what my part is for me,

Yes, please let me die in peace when my time comes. I do not acknowledge your authority to determine THAT for me, either.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I find that people who are pro-obamacare to be very defensive and angry when discussing healthcare

Do you know what a right is?
If something is a right then govt. must give it to you

They dont care about YOUR rights,or my MY rights,or THEIR rights.

They swallowed the kool-aid, along time ago.....

Sad.

reply to post by nenothtu


I mean leave society. If you dislike it so much and you aren't willing to participate leave it. Simple. We don't need you and you, obviously don't need us so, just leave. Eschew the protections and benefits and leave.

Nice try on trying to throw the quasi racist/elitist moniker onto me though.

Every word that drips from you speaks troll so there is no more reason to discuss. You aren't having a logical discussion. You are simply taking a controversial view and flogging it to death.

If anyone doesn't want to work in America, they don't have to.

And if they don't have any income they don't have to file Federal Taxes with the IRS.

ObamaCare gives fining power to the IRS who will be fining people who fail to sign up for ObamaCare....via their Federal Tax annual filing.

How is the IRS going to start fining the people who aren't filing Federal Taxes anymore?

Looks like they will merely be sending out Debt Notices to those people, which would be....slavery/indentured servitude.

Think of all those poor Down Syndrome Americans getting their ObamaCare debt bills in the mail. Are they going to be put in prison since they can't pay their debt?

That's how the Republicans can get Obama in the election....images of Down Syndrome people saying they can't pay for their ObamaCare and crying because they'll have to go to jail soon.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu

Ah. That clarifies things. You believe your rights are government-issued. I do not, because what the government gives, the government can also take away, making laws something other than rights

Who gives you your rights and what are those rights?
Serious question.

Serious Answer....Read THIS thread....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jaden

Sorry but it does not work that way.
I am participating in this thread because this is the thread of interest to me.
If you cannot just answer my simple question in one sentence or post in this thread then you do not know the answer.

It is not a simple answer I was trying to be thorough....

By the way, I WROTE the thread that I linked to so I THINK I might KNOW the answer.

It's obvious that you didn't really WANT a serious answer if you're not willing to even read it...

Jaden

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Masterjaden

 

Government is not tasked with protecting my right to life

they do NOT protect our negative rights.

What is police? Why is murder illegal and such law is enforced by the government institutions?

Why is murder illegal??? Because we have the unalienable right to life endowed on us by our creator, and not you, the government or the police have the authority to take that right.. That is why murder is illegal.

You really need to read my thread on the authority granted to the authority. It goes into detail to answer the above questions.

Law enforcement have been granted the authority by the people to enforce the laws that were authorized by the people to be created.

The legislators have been granted SPECIFIC authority to enact laws by the people with SPECIFIC restrictions.

BOTH legislators AND law enforcement are required to take oaths to uphold the highest law above all others, the rights and liberty of the people.

Any law that is passed beyond the scope of the authority given by the people are illegal and they have violated their oath of office. Any such law that is enforced is enforced illegally and law enforcement officers who enforce them have enforced the law illegally against their oath of office.

The PEOPLE give consent to be governed but do not do so without restriction.

The PEOPLE, NOT the SCOTUS is the final authority as 'We the People' grant all governmental authority to our legislators. The SCOTUS, LEGISLATORS, and the President/all law enforcement do NOT have any intrinsic authority in our form of government, no more than you, I or any other citizen.

Please read the thread I linked to on page 19 at the bottom. It will clear up a lot of misconceptions about governmental authority.

Jaden

Originally posted by nenothtu

Care to match degrees?

No, it wasn't on anyone else's dime.

You were paying your own way in kindergarten? 1st grade?
Guess what. I do not believe you.

Now what has that to do with insurance purchasing?

Is this your clever way of weaseling out of researching the IPABs? By attacking my education, you hope to prevent your own?

It has to do with your overall load of crap about being an island unto yourself.

reply to post by nenothtu


We are NOT anarcho-capitalists any more than any American is. We simply want our government to function legitimately, legally.

The government was formed with the consent of the people and it has veered away from the consent of the governed.

When people believe that the government derives its power from itself, and grants the rights to the people, it is obvious that we have strayed too far from the consent of the governed.

You cannot consent to give up unalienable rights, especially from the point of a gun as we currently do.

This means that all authority of the government is illegal when it is not derived from the consent of the governed and when the usurpations and raping of Liberty evinces a design to deprive the people of granting the authority, there is an answer to that question and it was the basis for the founding of our once great nation.

Our founders were some of the most intelligent people ever to grace the planet. They foresaw this very occurrence. They warned us against it, yet people moronically state that they couldn't possibly foresee the advances of technology, warmachinery, etc....

They didn't need to. They knew all too well the heart of man. These people are fighting on the wrong side without realizing it. Forcing your fellow man to help when they are struggling themselves only breeds animosity..

It's like trying to fight racism by pointing out our differences. It's ridiculous on its' face.

You cannot force people to help others by denying one group their Liberty.

There were only three things that our founders stated were unalienable rights, Life, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS.

I capitalized LIBERTY because it is so often overlooked. Liberty includes all of the bill of rights. Liberty includes the right of the people to own property, and to defend oneself and to speak one's mind without being put on a list by those we have granted authority over us. It includes the freedom to practice religion, whether that is the religion of the paradigms of science, Christianity, or Judaism or whatever. That one word in the Declaration of Independence is SO powerful. It means so much.

I want everyone who celebrated the 4th of July yesterday to think what that was you were celebrating.

Those fireworks were CELEBRATING the people KILLING their oppressors.

They represent the explosions, the bombs bursting in air, maiming and killing those who would oppress them and steal the authority that they were not granted.

Remember that today and think on it. Because it is quite possible that the same thing will be necessary in the near future and you will have to decide if in the future the people are celebrating your risking your life for freedom or you were sacrificing yours, theirs and everyone else's LIBERTY so that people who have had the opportunity to pursue their happiness could be GIVEN things from other people at the point of a gun.

Jaden

Originally posted by Masterjaden


It is not a simple answer I was trying to be thorough....

That is great but if you cannot cram the answer to "who?" into this thread somewhere then you overthought it.

By the way, I WROTE the thread that I linked to so I THINK I might KNOW the answer.

Odd logic.
I know you wrote the thread. That is why you are trying to get me to go and read it. You want attention, not discussion. Nothing about you authoring a thread makes your opinion expressed therein correct.

It's obvious that you didn't really WANT a serious answer if you're not willing to even read it...

Jaden

Other people were able to answer in this thread and even keep it relevant to this topic. Sorry your ability is lacking.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

What would you know about educational?
Self made men like yourselves are educated nowhere by noone.
Surely you did not go to schools...on someone else' dime?

I know this was directed at nenothtu and not me, but I have three degrees, including an MBA and I did NOT get them on someone else's dime. There are some people who are willing to work and earn their OWN way.

Jaden

Originally posted by Maslo

I dont think there is a correlation between healthcare socialization and government debt. And there is nothing to indicate national healthcare is the reason some countries are having fiscal problems lately, since there are far more countries that do not have problems and also have national healthcare. The problems can be traced back to recession, not national healthcare systems.

Really?... Are you 100% sure about that, or you just made that claim because you "think so"?...

What if AGAIN, I showed you the contrary to your claim? will you change your mind about "national healthcare" or will you find "another excuse" to claim "it is the best thing in the world"?...

How "easy" it is for people like you to claim such things without truly reserching and informing yourselves... And that is the problem, people like you always want to take the easy way out, you don't want to work hard for it...

Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I mean leave society. If you dislike it so much and you aren't willing to participate leave it. Simple. We don't need you and you, obviously don't need us so, just leave. Eschew the protections and benefits and leave.

Nice try on trying to throw the quasi racist/elitist moniker onto me though.

Every word that drips from you speaks troll so there is no more reason to discuss. You aren't having a logical discussion. You are simply taking a controversial view and flogging it to death.

HE IS the one participating...

The people that aren't participating are the ones that want to pay for other people's stuff with everyone else's work.

Participating in American society means pursuing your own happiness. Not GETTING it, PURSUING it and especially not having it handed to you from someon else at the point of a gun.

Participating in society in America also means ensuring that our Liberty and Life and every OTHER member of society's Liberty and Life is maintained against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.

Liberty lovers are not domestic enemies, those who would label Liberty lovers AS domestic enemies are.

Jaden