Obamacare amounts to slavery...

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by Masterjaden
 


So you noticed the claims of "illogical people" without providing any example of the alleged illogic, too, eh?




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by Masterjaden
 


So you noticed the claims of "illogical people" without providing any example of the alleged illogic, too, eh?




Yeah I loved this latest excuse why he didn't cite the nature of the illogic....

"I was going to come in and state how illogical this was, but I saw that other people already said that they intended to say how illogical this was but hadn't so I figured they already said it, so I didn't have to...."

And these geniuses are saying that I AM the ONE who is illogical???

Did you get a chance to read the other thread I wrote and linked to on the last page describing where the authority of the authority comes from and how "RIGHTS" are supposed to work???

I know it's a long read, but I think you'll find that it's worth it.

Jaden
edit on 5-7-2012 by Masterjaden because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
We are born with them. No one "gives" them to us. They encompass pretty much anything that doesn't involve abrogating the rights of another. Such things as life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, those mundane sorts of things. The ability to defend yourself, the ability to make your own choices and decisions, etc.


People die all the time.
Babies die all the time.
What happened to their right to life?
Was it revoked?


As an example, no one has the right to abrogate the right of life of another, unless it's required for defense. If it's required for defense, then there must be an attack to defend from. By making the attack, the other has waived his own right to life, by wrongfully seeking to abrogate yours.


I do not need your version of a civics lesson. I need to know where you think you get your "rights" from. It sounds like you and I have different "rights" and that can only lead to trouble.


Rights are not dependent on governmental pleasure, because A) they existed before governments did, and predate government, and B) Anything a government gives, a government can also take away, so governmental "gifts" cannot be considered rights, as they are at the whim of a government to be operable.


A virus can take away those rights.
A car accident can take away those rights.

So what good are they if they are so easily snuffed out?
Who gave them to you again?
Who protects them for you?
Who told you what they are?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu


And you can verify that.... how? Are you trying to say that no one lived before insurance and doctors were invented?


Actually it is a known fact that more babies died, people died early, etc.I am still waiting for you to "verify" your claptrap.



Right after you show where I said I would NEVER succumb...


Well then you admit that you understand that you benefit from medicine in society.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
You might have tried quoting the post you were actually responding to, then, instead of MY post...


No, I did. It was you and it was your post but then you tagged out and someone else logged on and responded with some asinine crap that had no relevance.



My response stands as it is.


Then it is still stupid.



It's not a matter of what I think it's a matter of what the government TOLD me. Which program, then, were you referring to where you get a government check after retirement at age 65? Maybe there's another I should concentrate on...



Maybe you have a hard time understanding plain English. It does not matter whether you think you are getting SS or not. It does not matter whether you were told you are getting SS or not. Nothing about what I said has anything to do with what YOU may or may not be getting at 65. It apparently all went way over your head.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

It's funny watching the illogical people things are coming up with in an attempt to criticize the ACA...it used to be easy...just call it Unconstitutional...the SCOTUS has firmly taken that argument away...



So you admit that the individual mandate is in reality nothing more than a tax, correct?




I will not be paying it.
So what does it matter what OS calls it?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu

Ah. That clarifies things. You believe your rights are government-issued. I do not, because what the government gives, the government can also take away, making laws something other than rights


Who gives you your rights and what are those rights?
Serious question.


Serious Answer....Read THIS thread....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jaden


Sorry but it does not work that way.
I am participating in this thread because this is the thread of interest to me.
If you cannot just answer my simple question in one sentence or post in this thread then you do not know the answer.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by habitforming

People die all the time.
Babies die all the time.
What happened to their right to life?
Was it revoked?


It would appear that it ends, although that is by no means proven, or even provable. I have not yet died, so I cannot say for certainty. If you HAVE died, please enlighten us as to the outcome.

It cannot be said to have been "revoked", as revocation implies a revoking agency, and therefore an issuing agency.



I do not need your version of a civics lesson. I need to know where you think you get your "rights" from. It sounds like you and I have different "rights" and that can only lead to trouble.


You're correct. if you have a fantasy that your rights are issued you by a government, then we do have different rights, and that will most certainly lead to trouble. If you open your eyes every now and again and look around you, that precise belief appears to be leading ever closer to trouble every day, as your rights are revoked by the issuing agency, which for some strange reason believes that since you acquiesce to their destruction, I will acquesce to the destruction of mine, which they never gave me to revoke.

Yessir, that will most certainly gather storm clouds upon the horizon. Accept your rights from your governmental master if you prefer, and live your live by his leave and at his pleasure, but don't expect me to. You will be disappointed.

I've already told you where I get my rights from, and yes, you definitely stand in need of some civics lessons. I guess they don't teach civics in schools these days.




A virus can take away those rights.
A car accident can take away those rights.

So what good are they if they are so easily snuffed out?



No they can't. By subjecting yourself to those hazards, YOU are also accepting the concurrent risk, as is also your right to do. Life is not without risk, and neither is the exercise of your rights. One of those rights is to chose which risks you prefer to subject yourself to.



Who gave them to you again?


The answer has not changed from the last time I answered that question. There is no "again" - it's still the same answer.



Who protects them for you?


I do.



Who told you what they are?


Why would I need someone to tell me what my rights are? Wouldn't that be a lot like letting them issue my rights to me by accepting their definition of my "rights"?

If you have to have someone tell you what your rights are, do you also have to have that same person tell you when to breathe and authorize your next breath?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:21 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Its funny to me that you are screaming for verification. I asked for verification of your claims 2 days ago and have yet to receive a single, verifiable source or document backing your asinine claims. So far all I have read from you is that you think think you are immortal and that you will never, ever need help from anyone. Also asinine. You flatly refuse to acknowledge that you are receiving the benefits of this society all while railing against it. So, you are either beyond stupid or you are a troll. I cannot believe that anyone with a modicum of education could hold to the silly beliefs that you claim to hold to.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu


And you can verify that.... how? Are you trying to say that no one lived before insurance and doctors were invented?


Actually it is a known fact that more babies died, people died early, etc.I am still waiting for you to "verify" your claptrap.


Nice sidestep, but it in no way provides the verification I asked for. you original claim that it was a response to was this:



Originally posted by habitforming

No, my point is that you are alive and well thanks to medical care.


I'm willing to bet I'll be waiting on the requested verification for a very long time, since it's not possible for you to verify it. It's a statement purely out of your fantasy, unverifiable, and you are utterly incapable of admitting that, since it would collapse your argument..




Right after you show where I said I would NEVER succumb...


Well then you admit that you understand that you benefit from medicine in society.


No. I admitted no such thing. Read it again, for comprehension this time. Knowing that I will some day die is in no way such an admission. To say otherwise implies that you think you will live forever and NOT die due to medicine. Is that your belief? that medicine provides immortality?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
You might have tried quoting the post you were actually responding to, then, instead of MY post...


No, I did. It was you and it was your post but then you tagged out and someone else logged on and responded with some asinine crap that had no relevance.


You must be getting tired - that statement made no sense whatsoever.





My response stands as it is.


Then it is still stupid.


Great answer.
you can claim the answer is "stupid", but cannot manage to dredge up any reasons to think so? What are you - in third grade or something? You think just saying "It's stupid" is some sort of legitimate rationale or reasoned argument?




It's not a matter of what I think it's a matter of what the government TOLD me. Which program, then, were you referring to where you get a government check after retirement at age 65? Maybe there's another I should concentrate on...



Maybe you have a hard time understanding plain English. It does not matter whether you think you are getting SS or not. It does not matter whether you were told you are getting SS or not. Nothing about what I said has anything to do with what YOU may or may not be getting at 65. It apparently all went way over your head.


Oh, I see now. I stand corrected and apologize. I didn't realize you were claiming it was YOU who intended to soak up the government checks that you claim (and evidently believe) are at the expense of others! My mistake. I thought it was a barb aimed at me. Apologies.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

It's funny watching the illogical people things are coming up with in an attempt to criticize the ACA...it used to be easy...just call it Unconstitutional...the SCOTUS has firmly taken that argument away...



So you admit that the individual mandate is in reality nothing more than a tax, correct?



I will not be paying it.
So what does it matter what OS calls it?


Speaking of responding to posts made to other posters....


To answer your question, I guess it really DOESN'T matter to you then - it only matters to us peasants, us lesser beings, those of us who are intended to bear the brunt of your irrational ire and extortion.

maybe check with the French to find out what happens when us peasants get restless enough from the abuse - you may be able to learn from the mistakes of others.

How about if we just call your intended tax "cake" instead, Marie?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by habitforming

Sorry but it does not work that way.
I am participating in this thread because this is the thread of interest to me.
If you cannot just answer my simple question in one sentence or post in this thread then you do not know the answer.


Simple minds require simple answers so that they may grasp them. Complex minds can handle complex answers, It probably is best that you DON'T read the post he suggested you read for understanding, I read it, and I really think it's a bit much for you.

It's complex.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by nenothtu
 


Its funny to me that you are screaming for verification. I asked for verification of your claims 2 days ago and have yet to receive a single, verifiable source or document backing your asinine claims.


Link to your 2 day old request to me, please. I must have missed it, and will need to read it to respond properly.

You seriously can't get your thoughts formulated without erroneous claims of "screaming" and allegations of "asinine"? Give me that link. I promise it will be fun - for one of us.



So far all I have read from you is that you think think you are immortal and that you will never, ever need help from anyone.


I'm going to need a link to that outrageously erroneous claim, too. I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm in no denial as to my own mortality. Where have I claimed immortality for myself? Put up or shut up. Provide a link to my stated claim of immortality, or be known for prevarication.



Also asinine.


There it is again. Do you have a lot of trouble formulating cogent responses, or do I just bring out the best in you?




You flatly refuse to acknowledge that you are receiving the benefits of this society all while railing against it.


"Society"? I thought we were talking about Obamacare! let me check the thread title again.... yep, it says "Obamacare", right there in the title... I am not receiving any "benefits" of insurance or indeed even doctors or hospitals. "Society" may be another thing altogether. I hear there is more to society than mere medicine.



So, you are either beyond stupid or you are a troll. I cannot believe that anyone with a modicum of education could hold to the silly beliefs that you claim to hold to.


Let's see here...

"stupid" - check

"troll" - check

"silly" - check

Claims of my "lack of education" - check

Argument to back those claims up, or demonstrate your own superior education - absent

Yup. we've got another 3rd grade level debater!


edit on 2012/7/5 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
It is sickening to me to read or hear people express disdain for universal healthcare.


Obamacare is not "universal health care". It's a guaranteed income for insurance corporations. Insurance is not health care - it is a for-profit enterprise, and dispenses no medicine. Or treatment. that would be the place of doctors and hospitals.



Why is helping people so abhorrent to you?


It's not. Unlike you, however, I am capable of determining who I want to help on my own.



Most of the civilized world has universal healthcare.


I don't care what other people have. I'm not interested in keeping up with the Jones'. What are you claiming to be the "civilized" world? What are the "uncivilized" countries? How are you determining who is and who is not "civilized"?



This is huge for people who can't afford it. It will give them the opportunity to have a healthy life.


How are they magically going to be able to afford insurance now when they couldn't yesterday, simply by legislative fiat? Does the law provide them with mega-raises?



By attempting to deny your fellow human beings the chance at proper care your are setting yourself apart. Is that really your goal?


I am "denying" no one anything by not simply handing it to them. Denial requires an overt act. By your logic, you have denied me a Porsche, because you have not given me one.


edit on 2012/7/5 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by Eurisko2012
 


There are not death panels you intolerable fool! Prove, with actual data from the actual law where it states that a panel of doctors/lawyers/politicians will decide whether or not a person will get care or death. Prove it or shut up.


"Death Panel" is a populist name descriptive of the function, rather than the euphemistic name given it by the government, which is "Independent Payment Advisory Board". You can research it on your own from there.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by ConspiracyBuff
 


Medicare doesn't work as it is let alone if you dump millions more on it all at once. A NEW system is needed. We are making strides toward that now.


Your "new system" appears to be nothing more than the involuntary servitude inherent in being forced to pay private corporations and increase their profits. Thanks for the offer, but I won't be participating. have a nice day all the same!



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by Masterjaden
 





Government is not tasked with protecting my right to life

they do NOT protect our negative rights.


What is police? Why is murder illegal and such law is enforced by the government institutions?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 




Obamacare is not "universal health care".


Indeed it is not, and Obamacare is a bad law.

But your justification in the OP for why its bad (you are not entitled to the services of another, if its payed from taxes) applies to everything except anarcho-capitalism, not just to Obamacare. So unless you are an anarchocapitalist, your reasoning is self-contradictory.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by Hawkmoon1972
reply to post by TWISTEDWORDS
 


Prove that it states that. PROVE IT! Show us the law. Post a link to the ACTUAL DETAIL IN THE WRITTEN, ACCEPTED DOCUMENT.

Every time someone says they saw a UFO everyone's BS meter goes into high gear and they start screaming for proof. Why not here? prove your claim or withdraw it!

I have heard this "death panel" argument many times and have yet to see one molecule of proof that a death panel currently exists or will exist once the law goes into effect.


I posted the name of it above. You can research it yourself. Independence can be a fun thing, and educational, too! you should try it.

"Proof" is not measured in molecules. That's OK, though - I don't accept "proof", and neither should you, because anything purporting to be proof is usually an elaborate lie. I accept instead "evidence" and "verification". maybe you can try that on some day, too.





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