Obamacare amounts to slavery...

reply to post by Hawkmoon1972


So, your reply is the ho hum BS of "Well, your already a slave".

Yeah, lets rejoice then. Just one more lump then, I guess.

reply to post by Masterjaden


Let me paraphrase your post:

I came upon an interesting thought while discussing Police in another forum I frequent where people were trying to claim that police protection is a right...

I don't understand how ANYONE can claim that a service provided by another is a right... That would infer that you have the right to force someone to work for you. That is THE definition of slavery.

Anyone who advocates that police protection is a right, advocates for slavery.


Your argument is logically sound, but unless you are an anarchocapitalist, it is moot. Any service payed from taxes is slavery under such logic.

But if you don't have family to help, there are many charitable organizations that will.Let's reword this a little to better reflect the reality shall we???/

Originally posted by ObservingTheWorld
Why should anyone get something that they cannot pay for? If you can't afford healthcare then just stay sick.

You don't have a job, then why should I be forced to care?

You can't afford to eat? Why should I be forced to help pay for your food?

You are too old to work? Sucks to be you.

In fact, all of my money should be only going to meUntil I decide to do otherwise with it. Help out my fellow man? What do you take me for? A charitable, civilized human being?(I take you for a douche bag that likes to make others pay for your charity to others at the point of someone else's gun without knowledge of what it really does. I know we live in one of the top industrialized countries in the world, a country with one of the highest standards of living, but to give everyone access to some of the most basic humanitarian services... You've got to be kidding.

Seriously, if you break a leg and cannot afford to pay your doctor, then I have a low cost solution for you. Two sticks and some duct tape. How dare you think any doctor will help you, after all, isn't that slavery to a t? Mind you they will still be getting paid, will still be driving their car to work, return to their home each evening to a nice meal. I mean, isn't that how slavery works? Or am I thinking of the holocaust? Whatever, healthcare for everyone is just like being a slave during the holocaust with Genghis Khan breathing down your neck.

Okay, major sarcasm off. Why is it that we, as a so called 'civilized' country, cannot take care of each and every citizen? Forget the "Obama Care" name for a second. Forget that my taxes may raise a bit. Take a look at this from a purely human to human view. Take a look from a spiritual view. Why is there needless suffering in America when it just doesn't need to be. Are we that elitist and self arrogant that to provide an underprivileged person basic medical care is just outrageous and an affront to our way of life? If so, then maybe it is time to reevaluate who we are as a society.

We can and DO take care of everyone, that's one of the problems. This was founded as a free society where communities were formed to help take care of one another. Then people were taught that regardless of their choices in life, they didn't deserve to be where they were. Regardless of their ability to contribute to society, there were people better off than them, so those people OWED them a better life.

All of this is what turned people against people. When you try to force someone to help their fellow man all you do is create animosity between them. When you try to foster community and Liberty for all and the ability to PURSUE their happiness, then prosperity reigns supreme for all.

You try to take away Liberty and force people to help others, deserving or not, then you are going to wind up with a revolution like you can't even imagine and no one will prosper until Liberty again reigns SUPREME.

That is the truth of history. You take away liberty at the expense of everyone for the few to live well as the many suffer and eventually the many stand up and say enough.

You're fighting for the wrong side without even knowing it. Only Liberty and personal responsibility can end with peace. Some WILL suffer that is the nature of humanity... Some even who do not deserve to do so, but the alternative is much worse, and if we keep going in this direction, you're going to find out how much worse it can truly get I'm sorry to say...

Jaden

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Masterjaden

 

Let me paraphrase your post:

I came upon an interesting thought while discussing Police in another forum I frequent where people were trying to claim that police protection is a right...

I don't understand how ANYONE can claim that a service provided by another is a right... That would infer that you have the right to force someone to work for you. That is THE definition of slavery.

Anyone who advocates that police protection is a right, advocates for slavery.


Your argument is logically sound, but unless you are an anarchocapitalist, it is moot. Any service payed from taxes is slavery under such logic.

Police don't protect YOU, they protect corporate interests and uphold the law, usually after the fact. Police are ABSOLUTELY not a RIGHT!!!!

You now think that POLICE are a RIGHT???? WOW... The propaganda is strong with this one.

YOU and ONLY YOU are responsible for your protection, otherwise, who will protect you from these PROTECTORS??? Who will protect you from government abuses.

We give the authority to the authority, they cannot exist without the consent of the governed. they are not a right, they are an implementation by the people, for the people, when we decide they are not fulfilling their assigned purpose, it is US who have the RIGHT to remove that authority.

Don't fall for the hype that we live by the consent of the government, it is the other way around. PLEASE do yourself a favor and read our founders writings. They are probably the greatest documents concerning government in known history....

Jaden

Originally posted by Gigantopithecus

I respect your feelings, even though you still refuse to be part of the team. You feel everyone is wrong, against you, but that is not it at all.

I've already put my time in being "part of the team", long ago. I don't think "everyone is against me" - I don't much care what they do as long as they allow me the courtesy of opting out. This the government seems to be unwilling to do, so I must enforce my rights by myself.

And I will.

You have this false sense that you are immortal, you will never get sick or be dying. Either that or you believe that even if you get sick or dying, you don't need help.

Trust me, I harbor no illusions of immortality. I've seen more dying than a lot of folks have seen of living. When I'm sick or dying, I DON'T need any help. I can die on my own, no help necessary.

Sir, if you lay unconscious or dying, it won't be you who decide you don't need help. It may be your love ones, a kind stranger or ever the great American society and conscious who demand that you be provided with medical care. It will be back to square one, we will still be unfairly forced to foot your medical bills.

My family knows better than to interfere. The rest of "society" better take a cue from them. There interference in my personal affairs will not be well received. There won't likely be any strangers around, kind or otherwise. If you "foot my medical bills" against my will, then the unfairness is all your own. I neither asked for it, wanted it, nor will I be very happy with it. If you force any such thing on me when I'm unable to shake you off of me, that is on your own head, not mine.

No man is an island, but if you still insist, I am sure you will agree your options are clear. Either be a man, a real American and get yourself insured thereby truly won't be a burden to Americans, or just move away from us, to China, India, Mexico, North Korea, Pakistan.

YOU leave. I'm not going anywhere. This is MY country. I was born here, my ancestors have lived here for at least the last 20,000 years, they are all buried here, and I will die here. NO MAN gets to tell me to GTFO. I've done my part to preserve a country for you, and this is the thanks I get - people trying their damndest to drive it off a cliff and telling me to just "like it" or GTFO.

No sir. Not gonna happen. One other thing - you don't get to define what a "real American" is for the likes of me.

Many of those countries you list would seem to be much more to your liking than mine - they already micromanage their citizenry and tell them what to do, and how and when to do it.

Originally posted by stanguilles7

Originally posted by nenothtu


You're right about one thing, though. I'm not going to be forced (or "compelled", as you put it) to buy a damned thing, and I'm not paying that "penalty tax" either. They'll try alright, but it ain't gonna happen. How far it goes depends on how hard they want to push it, but whatever they decide, I'm not buying into the insurance ponzi scheme, paying any sort of "penalty tax", or going to jail over it. You can figure out the options left from there.

So it's safe to assume you already havent paying any of your taxes for decades he, right?

What taxes? Please be specific.

How do you think they relate to me being forced to purchase something from a private corporation by governmental edict?

reply to post by nenothtu


I see. I didn't realize your only objection to taxes was this specific example, and not the coercion of any other form of taxation.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by nenothtu
You must have missed the part where my coverage doesn't involve insurance. It involves taking care of myself - no doctors or hospitals necessary.

You really are obtuse. Do you have any idea how many times you would be dead now from diseases that have been practically wiped out? Do you think you did that? You can function in society without succumbing to every plague man has because doctors are taking care of each other. You can lie about your birth all you like, you live in the US then you benefit from our crappy healthcare system.

I'll play your silly "what if" game. tell me, how many times do you think I would have died by now? This should get interesting. I know the answer - but do you?

People lived before those diseases were"eradicated". I'm pretty sure I could avoid "succumbing to every plague man has". I've done it successfully for more years than you have walked this planet, and done it without your doctors.

I offer again to send you my full name, and let YOU post any medical records you can find on me right here in this thread. After that, THEN you can try to call me a liar. Not until.

So tell me - you made the bold statement that I have benefited from your "crappy health care system", so precisely where and when did that happen? What exactly have I taken advantage of that wasn't paid in full and up front?

Originally posted by stanguilles7
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I see. I didn't realize your only objection to taxes was this specific example, and not the coercion of any other form of taxation.

It's their money to begin with. I don't print it. For a government to function at all, they have to have a certain amount of it. Now, we could argue over whether they are taking too much or too little, but at the end of the day, I give it to them voluntarily if I give it at all. Once I hand it to them, it's their to do with as they will, no longer mine.

I don't give them penalty money for perceived "misbehavior", I give them money to run their business.

When they start trying to TAKE money as a penalty for not doing business with their preferred partners, we're going to have problems like these. I choose for myself who to do business with, or indeed whether to do business at all.

Originally posted by TheJaberwocky
For real OP? "Obamacare is tantamount to slavers"? Ok let me break this down for you.


1) Its not even a tax. Its a penalty enacted by being uninsured. It also only applies to 2% of the US population, and is capped off at $700-2% of income.

SCOTUS says it IS a tax. They also say you're in heap big trouble with it if you try to argue it to be otherwise, as it was first sold to be.

2) Healthcare is not a luxry, it is a neccessity. EVERYONE needs healthcare. PERIOD. Show me a man who in uninsured and believes he doesn't need health insurance. I will in turn, show you a damned fool.

You are confusing "healthcare" with "insurance". They are not the same. If you think so, go to you insurance adjuster next time you need a tooth pulled. take some pliers with you - he probably won't have his own handy.

3) If you think this is tantamount to slavery because it "...puts a gun to your head...", then public schools are slavery. Police stations and fire fighters are SLAVERY! Your local PARKS DEPARTMENT is slavery! In this fashion, ANYTHING YOU DONT AGREE WITH IS SLAVERY.

It's slavery because it allows no other option of choice. I don't have to take advantage of ANY of those government services you listed. This I cannot opt out of, and it's at the federal level, not the local level as the rest of the services you list.

4) The Hippocratic Oath obliges a doctor to heal whomever is sick, regardless of money/country/creed. It doesnt say "I shall heal whomever pays me".

And yet I know of hospitals that have in the past turned away patients on their inability to pay, and sent them across town to a hospital that WILL treat them. Now, to be honest I don't know how long it's been that hasn't been happening, because I've not dealt with any of them in years and years. I hear they have to take all comers now.

With but the tiniest critical thinking skills, one can see that Obamacare leads to more people being able to afford healthcare, while the rest of us enjoy a 30-40% drop in price. Your argument that "Obamacare is tantamount to slavery" is an argument purely based in ignorance, willful or not.

You may want to recheck your critical thinking module. all I've heard is people complaining that their premiums are going UP, not dropping by 40%.

Originally posted by TheJaberwocky

Its not a tax, its a penalty. What the guy you quoted doesnt mention is it only applies to about 2% of the population. The economy is bad, yes. All the more reason to fight for the poor.

I see the talking points have been distributed to the internet brigade.

Are you SURE you want to make the argument that it's a "not tax" again? Switching back again in the bait and switch game, now that you've baited it out as a "tax"? You REALLY want to switch it back to a "not tax" now?

Are you SURE?

SCOTUS already ruled "unconstitutional" on it if it's a "not tax", so go for it, baby! I'll even help you if you want to switch it back to a "not tax".

It only beats up 2%, huh? Aside from the fact that I take issue with your figures, because they just don't add up with the "30 million newbies on the corporate balance sheet" claim, are you saying that minorities should now NOT be protected from the tyranny of majorities?

Now it's OK to whomp a population because they are only "2%" of the overall population?

The full force of the Affordable Care Act will not be felt until after the November 2012 elections. Many citizens fail to understand how the law will personally affect them and their families. From a previous article in Big Government, “Obamacare: We have to pass the bill to so you can find out what is in it”:

The individual mandate takes effect in 2014. Failure to comply will result in a fine equal to 1% of income. Penalties increase to 2% in 2015, and 2.5% in 2016. The IRS will be able to withhold any tax refunds to pay these fines if you have not provided proof of acceptable insurance.

In that article there is an analysis by Michael D. Tanner of the Cato Institute, which breaks down the details of the Affordable Care Act with an easy to understand explanation. The analysis, entitled “Bad Medicine,” can be accessed here. Tanner states that “the combination of taxes and subsidies in this law results in a substantial redistribution of income,” and “it is a tax and regulatory nightmare.” He also states, “More than 2/3 of companies could be forced to change their current coverage.”www.breitbart.com...

"fourteen hundred companies have been granted waivers from the Affordable Care Act, along with members of Congress and federal workers."

Peachy

Originally posted by Maslo
Unless you are an anarcho-capitalist, your point is moot. Whats the difference between taxation to pay for police or fire services, and taxation to pay for health services?

Because the taxes are not levied specifically on ONLY the people who say they don't want those services.

Police protection is not a right?

No. It is a government service, not a right. The SCOTUS ruled several years ago that no police officer is under any obligation to protect any citizen.

There are no rights that compel a third party to act on your behalf.

reply to post by nenothtu


Thank You for responding to him. I wanted to but was concerned with what I might say to someone who wishes to define a "real American" and a "real MAN" but is willing to steal from others at the point of a gun, he himself is not even willing to hold.

What he tries define a real man and real american is the exact opposite of what they are.

Jaden

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Maslo
Unless you are an anarcho-capitalist, your point is moot. Whats the difference between taxation to pay for police or fire services, and taxation to pay for health services?

Because the taxes are not levied specifically on ONLY the people who say they don't want those services.

Police protection is not a right?

No. It is a government service, not a right. The SCOTUS ruled several years ago that no police officer is under any obligation to protect any citizen.

There are no rights that compel a third party to act on your behalf.

We should stop saying the SCOTUS ruled and start saying the COTUS states, because people keep using rulings by the scotus that have in the past been against the COTUS totry and justify new rulings and laws that are illegal.

Hell the SCOTUS ruled that that the TSA is legal with even a second grader can read the 4th amendment and see that it is not...

Jaden

try the stealth aproach plan on going to work use cash instead of plastik stay out of the light.you cant fight the man with force there are to many...if every one went to work got off the plastic the all amercan way spend more than you have will only make you a slave buy a gun& blow your brains out..some of use are trying to feed our family i cant wate untill they turn our cash into plastic then charge use$5.00 every transaction ... ill get to set back in the woods and stop working for the man.and do a little more fishing & hunting your poodle will be good fryed...

Originally posted by Masterjaden
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Thank You for responding to him. I wanted to but was concerned with what I might say to someone who wishes to define a "real American" and a "real MAN" but is willing to steal from others at the point of a gun, he himself is not even willing to hold.

What he tries define a real man and real american is the exact opposite of what they are.

Jaden

He's perfectly free to question my manhood. Lot's of folks do. It's no big deal. He is NOT free to move me out of my own country. When the moving van shows up, they'll get to determine if his assessment was correct or not.

All I'm asking is that they leave me alone. I don't care what kind of co-ops, government plans, exchanges, or whatever else they dream up for themselves. When they make MY participation mandatory in THEIR "shared risk" schemes, it's just inviting trouble. I'm perfectly capable of determining for myself who I want to share risks with, if anyone at all.

Originally posted by Masterjaden

You haven't yet...

Why don't you start by challenging ANY of my premises...

You sure as # can challenge the validity of the logic, or the soundness of the argument, so just start by challenging ANY of teh premises that you would like.

I'll even give you a hint, the premise you have the best chance of arguing against is that forced labor is slavery, but it is, so even that won't get you far.

Jaden

Sorry, which "premises" were not opinions again?
I guess I need to know which things you wrote were supposed to be based on facts before I can remotely begin to argue with them. I am not sure you understood anything in my last post outside the last sentence. That is a bummer.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal

Like Kabfighter said in their post, the American people will pay either way. The gov't chips in to help pay for unpaid ER visits that therefore if you work and are paying taxes, you are paying them. Since those visits are more expensive than preventative care, it is in the best interest of taxpayers to have this system put in place.

Yeah, it is better to be a slave having the government FORCE you than to be a free person right?...

You can remain a slave if you want, I'll rather choose myself and be free...

reply to post by Hawkmoon1972


On the countries that are successfull?... Most "nationalized healthcare" countries are very close to, or are already bankrupt, and national healthcare is aprt of the reason why...