Philosophy of god, science, and nothing

reply to post by ImaFungi


Your subconscious is "you", with human constructs like ego and psyche ripped away. It is your true self. WHen you ignore this inner voice, your true self, you are allowing your ego to over ride reason (most often).

I think we are describing the same thing using differents words and undersstandings.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Your subconscious is "you", with human constructs like ego and psyche ripped away. It is your true self. WHen you ignore this inner voice, your true self, you are allowing your ego to over ride reason (most often).

I think we are describing the same thing using differents words and undersstandings.

yea,..,,.., well think of it this way,,,,, if you were born in the woods and never learned words and never had contact with the civilized world...... that is your true self,,,,,,, how you are now is also your true self,,,,,, just using your intellectual tools and equipment to adapt to this modern human reality......

Think about it: Right now, The U.S. FEDS have technology that's 50-60 ahead of today's technology but it's being surpressed to control the markets and fund all these "Black Ops." We've had iPhone technology since the early 1900s, but it wouldn't be beneficial for the "illuminati's" agenda to expose that type of technology at that particular time. Just within the last 100 years, our advancement has been unexplainable. The point is, that everything is being controlled and monitored.

reply to post by ImaFungi

ok i understand what your saying,, and i have this whole time,,,,, I guess I just cant imagine why, how and where never ending space exists,.,.

would you agree that there can be a number of finite universes like ours in the infinite space,,,,, say if the universes were 99999999999999999^999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 light years away from the edge of ours,,,,,,, meaning an infinite directions of up down, left right,,, little more right, micrometer more right,, micro meter more right..... from our perspective,,, that micrometer in terms of where the universe would actually be would be light years distance,,,, as from our perspective we perceive the distance of our thumb and look out and see stars that match up with our thumb yet are light years apart..........

ok i understand what your saying,, and i have this whole time,,,,, I guess I just cant imagine why, how and where never ending space exists,.,.

It is not easy to imagine where the empty void is: When you are located inside our universe with a unknown distance to the edge of it.

The problem most people have is known the differences between our universe and empty space.
The difference is that our universe is a compressed state of energy and matter. The empty space/void is not compressed. It is neutral. It is not even a vacuum. A vacuum can only be created in a chamber inside our compressed universe. Most people dont grasp this either, because they haven't really looked into what a vacuum is compared to a absolutely neutral space. A vacuum can never be neutral, it is always negative. Because it is isolated inside matter.

Our universe is situated inside a empty void that is absolutely neutral. It is more powerful than a vacuum can ever be. Because the vacuum we create can never be neutral.

Our universe consists of compressed space of matter and energy. And our universe will always expand towards a space that have less compressed matter and energy. In other words a emptier space than our universe.

would you agree that there can be a number of finite universes like ours in the infinite space,,,,, say if the universes were 99999999999999999^999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 light years away from the edge of ours,,,,,,, meaning an infinite directions of up down, left right,,, little more right, micrometer more right,, micro meter more right..... from our perspective,,, that micrometer in terms of where the universe would actually be would be light years distance,,,, as from our perspective we perceive the distance of our thumb and look out and see stars that match up with our thumb yet are light years apart..........

I can not deny the idea that there might be other universes besides our own. But to figure out how a infinite void formed our finite void. I have to start with a single infinite void. Because no matter how many other universes there are they must come from it.

reply to post by spy66


ok thanks for your replies,,, its nice chatting with you,,, and i get most of what your saying...

"Our universe consists of compressed space of matter and energy. And our universe will always expand towards a space that have less compressed matter and energy. In other words a emptier space than our universe."

so you believe that the primal essence of all that is,,, is absolutely nothing,,,, the first and only thing to exist,,,, that infinite void of space..... I think you mention you believe it is physical,,,, i dont think i remember you answering when i asked is this empty space,, constructed of anything to be considered physical? but i think you believe for the fact that it exists in all dimensions and not only takes up space,, but is all space,,,, it is physically existing......

do you then believe that energy and matter is a secondary form of this original infinite physical space?
the energetic and physical universe of matter, is something that the physical infinite space can create,, on a whim,,, with genius calculations,, expertise precession,,unimaginable forms and functions,,, without error,,, and it can do this because? nothing stopped it from doing it? what is it? and how can it do?


"I can not deny the idea that there might be other universes besides our own. But to figure out how a infinite void formed our finite void. I have to start with a single infinite void. Because no matter how many other universes there are they must come from it."

I still do not agree with that last sentence,,, and cant,,,,,, your assuming that this is the first infinite void,,,, your assuming that the void is infinite ,,,.. i think this universe and the infinite void could have come from something earlier,,, and that could have come from something earlier,,,,, big bangers measure this universe in billions of years,,,,, i cant believe that in the history of history this universe was the first thing that ever happened,,,,,, dont you understand that?,,,, why do you think that only a billion years ago was the first time anything ever happened? you had to be created by this process billions of years in the making just to make that claim,,,,, you know nothing about how long possibilities have been possible....

reply to post by ImaFungi


I believe that to be untrue. You "true self" is unknowable as you (in this reality) lack the experience to understand your true self.

As a human you layer in all the things like ego, psyche, etc...this is the human part of you The conscience, that little nagging voice on the inside that tells you what you should and should not do....that is more akin to the "true self" Even that is but the slightest shadow.

If the belief that we are extra-3d is true, that would mean that (to the observer in this 3d realm) we are truly multifaceted beings. How can we even contemplate such a possibility?

reply to post by ImaFungi

do you then believe that energy and matter is a secondary form of this original infinite physical space?

The infinite void is empty. Meaning there are no other matter or energies present except the infinite void it self. The infinite void is not compressed in any way. It is absolutely neutral. And it must exist as such if it is to be infinite.

- I believe that our finite universe consists of this void. But in a compressed state. That is the only way this will work. And that is the only way there can be other/different physical dimension. All the other physical dimensions must have been formed. And must be different.

If you consider how far we have measured the volume our universe have expanded so far. Image the volume of infinite void it would take to compress and form our universe. The volume would be unimaginably large. But not infinite.

Or how much volume of atmosphere/air you would need to compress to fill a glass with water.

I still do not agree with that last sentence,,, and cant,,,,,, your assuming that this is the first infinite void,,,, your assuming that the void is infinite ,,,.. i think this universe and the infinite void could have come from something earlier,,, and that could have come from something earlier,,,,, big bangers measure this universe in billions of years,,,,, i cant believe that in the history of history this universe was the first thing that ever happened,,,,,, dont you understand that?,,,,

Of course i understand your problem. I have been down the same road.

But again it is not wrong to start out with the infinite void, and go from there to explain how the first universe was created. Even if this universe is not ours. Our universe can for all we know be from a later formed universe that was formed by the one before it. But the very first universe formed must have been formed by the infinite void.
There is no other possibility.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I believe that to be untrue. You "true self" is unknowable as you (in this reality) lack the experience to understand your true self.

As a human you layer in all the things like ego, psyche, etc...this is the human part of you The conscience, that little nagging voice on the inside that tells you what you should and should not do....that is more akin to the "true self" Even that is but the slightest shadow.

If the belief that we are extra-3d is true, that would mean that (to the observer in this 3d realm) we are truly multifaceted beings. How can we even contemplate such a possibility?

hmm i have no clue what you mean,,,,,,,,,,,, I only know myself because i exist right now as my self,,,,,, I have gathered so much information from reality,,,, and am fortunate to have the leisure time to ponder things,,,, but i dont know about true self,,,,, how do you explain my self and essence,, existing before the fusion of my parents dna,,,, how could "i" have been if it werent for that event which took place not too long ago in universal time,,,,,, you have the longing to believe that theres more to it and to us,,,, but in what way? you just know we have a hand and get to play for longer,, and have roles? faith, a gamble, a guess, a belief, a fact, a hope? I understand what you mean,,,,,, we can die and become taken into the light and given answers and brought to other universes and dimensions and get offered a job working for god as an angel............ that or a million other scenarios are possible to occur,,, or nothing,,,,,

reply to post by spy66


ok cool,,,,,,, it had to start from nothing,,, got it...........


something ive thought before about is,,,,,,,, the exact opposite of absolute nothing,,,, is absolute everything ( infinite everything) .,.,.,.,.,. what i thought was absolute nothing is like a blank slate,,, for potentially,, everything to exist in....... I think this universe,,,, or if there are more,,,,, is the experimentation of representing the concept of every conceivable thing... shape,, size,, length,, etc... in a physical form,,,,, also infinite,,, everything never ends,,, you never reach the end,, theres always more,,,,, there will never be the same human born,,,,, nature has figured out a way to create newness....... also im thinking along the same lines,,,, do you think the reality that right now is occurring,,,,, and relative to the beginning of time,,,, a future full of things and stuff was potential and possible,,,, do you think that "potential energy" was enough to create or cause the begging? this is just metaphysical speculation and skirting along the lines of big bangers who say things like the universe had to happen or else we wouldnt be here right now,,,, or it happened because it could,,,,

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Why has this thread been moved?

I don't mind. We are discussing origins, even if I feel it's on a philosophical level. It's all good.

reply to post by ImaFungi


The more often a behavior is exhibted, the more likely it is to be exhibited in the future. We all know this, and call it "habit". We can develop all sorts of habit, both obviously manifest and others not quite so obvious. But each time you perform this habit, you reinforce neural pathways. Eventually the way you thinks begins to be defined in part by these habits, and the stronger they are reinforced the more likely you are to sway your outlook and thought processes based on it.

Similiarly, when you alter the chemical balance that a body has and is accustomed to, you end up with some strange results. For example, a guy I know that was struck by lightning had a singular symptom that has dogged him to this day: his metabolism has slowed to a crawl. The formerly atheletic and rail thin 40 year old man is now a morbidly obese 50 year old. All due to a change in his chemical balance. And, to add another layer of example to this story, the habits he had learned about eating over the prior 40 years meant nothing to maintaining his body any more.

Finally, do you know how much of "you" is actually you? Something along the lines of a little less than 1% of you is actually human biological material. The rest is a various array of viruses, prions, parasites, bacteria, and any number of other creepy crawlies that we have yet to define.

So when you say "I know myself", what do you really mean by this? Are you familiar with yourself like a Buddhist monk, where you can determine specific diagnostics about the human body by simply concentrating to detect (a skill developed through meditation)?

So when I say "the real you", i am referring to the person behiund the scenes. The one that, despite mental incapacity, poor habits developed through poor self control, or any other reasoin, speaks the same, consistent message (even if you do choke it down to a mere undetectable whisper) You can call it your "conscience", whatever you want. But this....this is the real you. The one unchanged by biological processes.

reply to post by ImaFungi


I don't have a reason for believing, other than my inability to imagine any other way given my current world view and overall outlook.

Having said that, the idea of angels and bright lights is utter nonsense. That is tripe fed to the "profane". The symbolism of all that nonsense, what little is actually there and not just made up BS, speaks to a deeper truth regarding the release you undergo by having the constraints of your biology to continuously cloud your thoughts and prevent proper action.

Your life is really mostly a battle of your true selfs ability to grapple with and control the animal that you physically are.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by spy66

 

ok cool,,,,,,, it had to start from nothing,,, got it...........


something ive thought before about is,,,,,,,, the exact opposite of absolute nothing,,,, is absolute everything ( infinite everything) .,.,.,.,.,. what i thought was absolute nothing is like a blank slate,,, for potentially,, everything to exist in....... I think this universe,,,, or if there are more,,,,, is the experimentation of representing the concept of every conceivable thing... shape,, size,, length,, etc... in a physical form,,,,, also infinite,,, everything never ends,,, you never reach the end,, theres always more,,,,, there will never be the same human born,,,,, nature has figured out a way to create newness....... also im thinking along the same lines,,,, do you think the reality that right now is occurring,,,,, and relative to the beginning of time,,,, a future full of things and stuff was potential and possible,,,, do you think that "potential energy" was enough to create or cause the begging? this is just metaphysical speculation and skirting along the lines of big bangers who say things like the universe had to happen or else we wouldnt be here right now,,,, or it happened because it could,,,,

If my theory is correct. Everything that now is a finite is going to disappear. Our finite universe is expanding back to what it used to be. Our universe will not go on and on for ever.

Our universe reached its peak/mass at the point it began to expand. It started to expand because of pressure differentials. What ever physical void that is compressed; It will emit energy. This energy will function like a barrier. A space filled with heat and light. This barrier would be between the infinite void and the compressed matter/plasma (our universe).

As our extremely hot plasma universe keeps on colling down because it always emits of energy, heat and light, creating a bigger distance between it self and the infinite void. Our hot plasma void is forming a new space which is a part of our finite universe.

reply to post by spy66


ok,,,, sorta like it spreads out in every directions of space,,,,, ( because there is so much energy) and something caused this crazy amount of energy to start to repel from itself,,,, so it spreads as far as it can, and as thin as it can eventually till every piece, that was once connected in the process of energy distribution via the physical laws, is in the infinite void of space itself,,,,,, so the energy will be so spread out its physicality will be negligble,,,, yet in the infinite void,,, the potential energy exists within to create a universe,,,, so eventually new laws will start to utilize that energy in some manner,,,,, maybe?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by spy66

 

ok,,,, sorta like it spreads out in every directions of space,,,,, ( because there is so much energy) and something caused this crazy amount of energy to start to repel from itself,,,, so it spreads as far as it can, and as thin as it can eventually till every piece, that was once connected in the process of energy distribution via the physical laws, is in the infinite void of space itself,,,,,, so the energy will be so spread out its physicality will be negligble,,,, yet in the infinite void,,, the potential energy exists within to create a universe,,,, so eventually new laws will start to utilize that energy in some manner,,,,, maybe?

Correct.

Yes, something cause this void to form finite energy (our universe). This is what is very interesting, because initially the infinite void is a constant. A constant as you know will not change randomly on its own.

In quantum physics they talk about the different wave forms energy and matter have. within the infinite void this does not occur. The wave is stretched out and not causing any motion.
Let's say a wave of energy is a compressed string, A compressed void moving away from its source. This source would be our universe. It is our universe that is creating these waves that our scientists can observe today. How do i know this?

I know this because there is no way our scientists can study anything except for what is inside our compressed void (universe).

- Our energy elements depend on the wave form the void has. Each element has its own wave length and form, making up the present void of our universe.

If there were other universes we should at some point be able to see the waves echoing of the energy waves from our universe. The energy waves from other universes would interact with our energy. And it would change the expansion shape of our universe. depending on the direction the other universe is at. But so far we have measured our universe to be a perfect sphere. That means no interaction between our universe and an other.

This is the main reason i dont believe there exists other universes at this point in time.

reply to post by spy66


There is a logical error here.

If you have no context for what the universe would look like in any other way than it does now, and you do not know what the external configuration of the area around our universe is (to use such silly and simplified terms as "area" and "around", anyway), then how would you know what causes the current "shape" of our universe? You only know one way, and that is the way we have it now. Any changes in the universe as it is would lead to some very strange effects to things like physics. You have a great idea on some observations that would be useful, but would need a novel way to accomplish that. The myopic view of our sad human eyes doesn't do much to help us here. The Universe has a whole array of information to share with us, and we can only percieve a small piece of it.

RE: seeing "shadows" of energy from a different verse....could that not be gravity? Or any other number of hidden forces?

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by spy66

 

There is a logical error here.

If you have no context for what the universe would look like in any other way than it does now, and you do not know what the external configuration of the area around our universe is (to use such silly and simplified terms as "area" and "around", anyway), then how would you know what causes the current "shape" of our universe? You only know one way, and that is the way we have it now. Any changes in the universe as it is would lead to some very strange effects to things like physics. You have a great idea on some observations that would be useful, but would need a novel way to accomplish that. The myopic view of our sad human eyes doesn't do much to help us here. The Universe has a whole array of information to share with us, and we can only percieve a small piece of it.

RE: seeing "shadows" of energy from a different verse....could that not be gravity? Or any other number of hidden forces?

If you have no context for what the universe would look like in any other way than it does now, and you do not know what the external configuration of the area around our universe is (to use such silly and simplified terms as "area" and "around", anyway),

Well i can't use a different context to describe our universe beside the way it is now. Because our universe is like it is. How it became to be like this and what will become of it. Can only be describe in context if we use its present state and motion.

how would you know what causes the current "shape" of our universe?

Our universe was caused by a compression. It must have been since it is expanding now. It must be since we have solids. It must be since the solids emit energies.

seeing "shadows" of energy from a different verse....could that not be gravity? Or any other number of hidden forces?

Probably not. Since we observe our universe expanding in almost a perfect flat plain. The shadow is most likely from a source moving in the same direction as our universe is expanding.

NB. The further away from the galaxies within our universe you get the less gravity you will find/encounter. The closer you get to them the more gravity you will encounter.

Originally posted by spy66


Well i can't use a different context to describe our universe beside the way it is now. Because our universe is like it is. How it became to be like this and what will become of it. Can only be describe in context if we use its present state and motion.

Correct. Now, if you understand the laws of motion you can generally figure out prior states. However....much of what I contend in your posting deals with how we do not know the laws of motion for what you describe. You are describing things using a context you are familiar with. The only context you are familiar with.

Our universe was caused by a compression. It must have been since it is expanding now. It must be since we have solids. It must be since the solids emit energies.

I am not following your logic here. Can you explain further?

Probably not. Since we observe our universe expanding in almost a perfect flat plain. The shadow is most likely from a source moving in the same direction as our universe is expanding.

NB. The further away from the galaxies within our universe you get the less gravity you will find/encounter. The closer you get to them the more gravity you will encounter.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

I can only agree that gravity seems to be related to mass in some way. No argument there. But how does that preclude the movement of energy via gravity from one verse into ours?

reply to post by jiggerj


Admittedly I haven't read through the entire thread, so if this has been said, I apologize.

I realize you are arguing from a philosophical point of view, but your initial premise is flawed. "Science" doesn't argue or state that the universe came from nothing. Ask any physicist what preceded the "Big Bang" and you will find they don't know. Some will even say there is no way to know what came before the bang. Some will offer opinions or hypotheses based on their subscribed beliefs (like contraction/expansion or membranes touching to set off the spark).

However, they never state that there was nothing before the something. Only that we don't know what came before because we can't observe any data before the bang. The notion that "science" claims nothing came before is a straw man argument put forth to discredit (or show absurdity in) the theory.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Correct. Now, if you understand the laws of motion you can generally figure out prior states. However....much of what I contend in your posting deals with how we do not know the laws of motion for what you describe. You are describing things using a context you are familiar with. The only context you are familiar with.

You say that we don't know about the law of motion that formed our universe. Well, why should i be restricted to what other people don't know? If some people dont know, they will know now. All the information is out there to to apply the laws. But not all on the same page. I know i don't have a tittle or a PhD. But i am just as much of a human as the once who have the title. That means i can also figure things out. So can you if you put your mind to it. The people with a title and a PhD are working for you to. They give you the knowledge you need to know and work with.

You can't disprove or argue against my law of motion that caused our universe to be formed. Because you know the law of compression is a valid explanation that fits our universes present state. And its within the law of motion. You can't argue against it. But you can deny it by choice if you don't agree. Not much i can do about that.

But i would like to know you version, if you have one that can explain it a lot better. I would really like to hear your version of how the first state of solids were formed from a void that is not a solid.

Our universe was caused by a compression. It must have been since it is expanding now. It must be since we have solids. It must be since the solids emit energies.

I am not following your logic here. Can you explain further?



If you don't fallow you can't have thought much about solids. Isn't a solid compressed energies?
The only law of motion that would allow that is a compression.

No argument there. But how does that preclude the movement of energy via gravity from one verse into ours?

If our universe is expanding outwards in a straight line. It indicates that our universe is not effected by energy from a different universe/source. That means that our universe is not interacting with a different finite universe/ gravity source..

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)