Philosophy of god, science, and nothing

I believe in God even though I don't know exactly what God is. As far as the Universe is concerned, I don't care what created it. It seems to me that the Universe has structure. It also seems to me that God has structure. Something created the Universe, that's for sure and God would have also had to be created. Nothing exists unless it has been created somehow. The big bang theory is a big joke, a feeble attempt by man as an explanation. I don't care how many people believe it, I'll never believe that man could ever figure it out.

My belief is that somehow what we see exists somehow and I will not attempt to explain it because I know that the creation of the Universe is something that mankind cannot fathom. Did god create the Universe? Unless he existed before the Universe was created in some other Dimension I do not think that is possible. I can't say it's true or false because there is no way I or anyone else on this planet can know for sure if their mind and knowledge made up their belief or whether god told them. Like I say, I do believe there is something structuring all this and I prefer to call whatever it is "God"....... God is energy and energy likes to keep busy.

reply to post by Astyanax


"Space isn't nothing. It expands. It has energy. It is permeated by electromagnetic and gravitational fields."

ok but the electromagnetic and gravitational fields arent properties or qualities of,,,, what space itself is?

also does space itself have energy? or does the energy within space allow for the empty passaged areas between large clusters of energy to show traits of having energy and expanding?

I guess you are saying when we measure and detect space it has these properties so these properties are what "space" is,.,.,. regardless of what gives these properties,,,

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by maes9
reply to post by jiggerj

 

existence of GOD is basic and simple! If you see a wheel of a vehicle you think that somebody may have built that, do not you? so how this amazing and complicated universe is built? just by chance? I have read the atheist philosophers book in the east and west, none of them believe in any chance. chance is a word to call what we can not perceive it's reasons.
one can not directly see the electricity and electromagnetic waves but with it's signs.
can nothing causes anything!

We plug a light into a socket. When the lamp lights up do we say, "Hmm, must be electric eels in the wall." No, because if we follow the wires we'll eventually come to a direct source: an electric generator at the utilities company. I'm just saying that nowhere in the universe is there an event or action that directly points to a god. Sure, we could say, "Hey, maybe a god did it." But at the same time we could say, "Hey, maybe a frog did it." There's just no direct connection to an almighty being.

your question is itself your answer. so who did make the frog and ......
this infinite hierarchy is not logical.
well as you insisting on a direct sign. I did not find that. maybe an intuitive feeling is your answer. well we have a built in prophet that when we are sinking without any aid we just ask a God to help us!
that direct sign is not in the universe, it is in ourselves!

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jiggerj
The religious belief is that a god created everything. This means that there had to have been a State of Absolute Nothing from which this god started with in order to create everything.

Science suggests that there was nothing before the Big Bang.

With both fields agreeing on a point of nothing, then why is it that we cannot return a something BACK into nothing?

For something to become a scientific fact, a formula must work both frontwards and backwards. If a Something cannot be reduced to absolute nothing, then the idea of nothingness before the Big Bang must be false.

In order to prove a god, the religious must also find a way to return something to its nothingness. If this cannot be done, then the material in this universe has always existed. Hence, no god.

More deep logic and shallow understanding...

Oh I love comments like this. You probably can't think past the bible, but how would anyone know seeing as you offer no intelligent argument? Go ahead, throw some biblical quotes up to show how brainwashed you are. You know you want to.

You'd love that, wouldn't you? I won't give you the satisfaction. Why should I say anything, having seen no intelligent argument here yet? Anyway, what would be the point??

The point would be that maybe you'd learn to trust your own mind. If you'd take the time to notice I even question the big brains of science. No one should just accept something because:

A. The bible tells me so, or
B. Scientists are smart so they must be right.

If the bible or a scientist told you to jump off a bridge, would you? I won't accept yes for an answer!

Presumptuous too - tell me how you know, or even think, that I have not learned to trust my own mind? Do you really think that I am stupid, ignorant, or brainwashed just because I reside in another intellectual camp than you do? Get some perspective, dude. We really know very little about each other on this forum, but attitude shines very brightly. I aim to hold up a mirror to attitudes in your camp.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jiggerj
The religious belief is that a god created everything. This means that there had to have been a State of Absolute Nothing from which this god started with in order to create everything.

Science suggests that there was nothing before the Big Bang.

With both fields agreeing on a point of nothing, then why is it that we cannot return a something BACK into nothing?

For something to become a scientific fact, a formula must work both frontwards and backwards. If a Something cannot be reduced to absolute nothing, then the idea of nothingness before the Big Bang must be false.

In order to prove a god, the religious must also find a way to return something to its nothingness. If this cannot be done, then the material in this universe has always existed. Hence, no god.

More deep logic and shallow understanding...

Oh I love comments like this. You probably can't think past the bible, but how would anyone know seeing as you offer no intelligent argument? Go ahead, throw some biblical quotes up to show how brainwashed you are. You know you want to.

You'd love that, wouldn't you? I won't give you the satisfaction. Why should I say anything, having seen no intelligent argument here yet? Anyway, what would be the point??

The point would be that maybe you'd learn to trust your own mind. If you'd take the time to notice I even question the big brains of science. No one should just accept something because:

A. The bible tells me so, or
B. Scientists are smart so they must be right.

If the bible or a scientist told you to jump off a bridge, would you? I won't accept yes for an answer!

Presumptuous too - tell me how you know, or even think, that I have not learned to trust my own mind? Do you really think that I am stupid, ignorant, or brainwashed just because I reside in another intellectual camp than you do? Get some perspective, dude. We really know very little about each other on this forum, but attitude shines very brightly. I aim to hold up a mirror to attitudes in your camp.

Well, as an intellectual you offer no evidence. You come in here ready to argue for a god and not even partake of the subject. I'm done.

Originally posted by jiggerjWell, as an intellectual you offer no evidence. You come in here ready to argue for a god and not even partake of the subject. I'm done.

You have yet to realize what I am trying to say here. Evidence and argument will not be offered, and I'm not even sure I mentioned "god" yet. As for the subject, do any of us really have a handle on it?

You're done? No, far from it.

reply to post by jiggerj


The nothing you are looking for is you. See if you can find the source of you, turn toward the self, turn toward the seer of what is presently appearing and see if you can find any substance.
The appearance that is appearing presently is what you could call something but what is aware of this?
You might answer 'I am'. The 'I am' can only be known when there are appearances appearing but what knows 'I am'?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The nothing you are looking for is you. See if you can find the source of you, turn toward the self, turn toward the seer of what is presently appearing and see if you can find any substance.
The appearance that is appearing presently is what you could call something but what is aware of this?
You might answer 'I am'. The 'I am' can only be known when there are appearances appearing but what knows 'I am'?

Please read the first post. Thanks.

reply to post by jiggerj


I did.
Please read my post and try to absorb what is written.
Knowing is all there is and knowing is not made of anything material.
All seeing, all knowing and everpresent - this is all there is.

In the beginning was the word. Before the word there was nothing.
There is still nothing but the word made you believe there is something. Words can only appear now, presently, they appear out of this nothing and disappear into this nothing.
There is only presence but the mind (words) imagines time and space and the world is created. You are the creator and destroyer of all worlds. The world is only an idea made of words, if this idea is believed then suffering is the result.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I believe it likely that "the word", as used in religion, speaks more to something esoteric.

Consider Pythagoras' axiom, "There is music in the spheres."

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


The words used in language make believe there is more than this that is appearing presently. Really there is only this.
This is not a thing!!
This is all there is and you cannot separate yourself from it.
The belief in words like 'time' make you believe you are a person in time but you are not.
Presence (the present-the gift) is all there is and words like past and future are words. Before the word past or future appear presence must be present for the words to appear in/on.
Presence is not a thing - so can be said to be no thing (nothing). Without this no thing, no apparent (appearing) things can appear to be.

Tao Te Ching
Written by Lao-tzu
From a translation by S. Mitchell

First Chapter:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.



The naming (words) is the origin of particular things, however there are no particular things. All arises from source, the source is presence and presence is not a thing.

reply to post by Itisnowagain



That sounds like a bunch of etymological gymnastics to me.

I think you should understand my Pythagoras reference.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Maybe you could explain it to me, your post is a bit vague.

reply to post by Itisnowagain



I do not feel qualified to explain it to you, honestly. On a better day, at a better time, words would be more friendly to me. As it stands right now, they are being shy and hard to find as it relates to this.

Let me give you a link Yes, i know it is a loooooooong read. But when you are done with it, I think you will understand a little better what I am trying to say.

www.sacred-texts.com...

If you would like something a little more abridged, but that may not be a whole lot more clear (depending on how you think and process information):

www.dartmouth.edu...

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Symbols are words and words are symbols for a 'thing'. Without a word or symbol there are no things (there is nothing). There is just this that is appearing - prior to human concept. Human concept is what paints your world.
Gods kingdom is here to be seen, heard, tasted and touched in all its glory but man cannot see or hear because he is blinded by the symbols/words that he stamps on paradise so he is cast out.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Symbols are words and words are symbols for a 'thing'. Without a word or symbol there are no things (there is nothing). There is just this that is appearing - prior to human concept. Human concept is what paints your world.
Gods kingdom is here to be seen, heard, tasted and touched in all its glory but man cannot see or hear because he is blinded by the symbols/words that he stamps on paradise so he is cast out.

Wow. You read that fast. What is it, about 1000 pages. In under 20 minutes?

You must truly be prodigious. So never mind.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


We are talking about 'the word' so i don't see why i should read all that to dismantle what 'the word' means. This thread is about finding what this 'nothing' is and i am pointing toward what nothing is by explaining that before the word there was nothing.

Prior to the mind making noise there is silence. What is silence made of?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

We are talking about 'the word' so i don't see why i should read all that to dismantle what 'the word' means. This thread is about finding what this 'nothing' is and i am pointing toward what nothing is by explaining that before the word there was nothing.

Prior to the mind making noise there is silence. What is silence made of?

edit on 7-7-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Wouldn't the very first be a thought; a consciousness?

How can there be a word without it?

A word would be friction of some kind.