The American People Are Angry!

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by habitforming

 

I thought we were talking about regulation? What are you arguing about central governments for? Does that negate my point about regulation at all?

A strong central government is not equated with market regulation. A strong central government is equated with the rule of law and there is nothing about the rule of law that demands market regulation.

Why not? Are the markets too holy to be touched or what?

Regulating the markets effectively guarantees scumbags with billions keep their filthy hands out of government and away from the people. I am not talking about the american government though, since most regulations target small and medium business. We need a government to go after big business!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by frazzle

 

Are you talking about a nationalised currency or competing private currencies like mentioned by Ron Paul?

Socialism implies the nationalisation of industry and banking....aka "the means of production".

Kind of hard to have a nationalised currency when the government itself, and all the agencies, are registered corporations in the state of delaware.

Full privatisation leeds to state capitalism sleeping with big business. Read some marxist literature but do not confuse communism, socialism and anarchy. communism everything is public, socialism is a mixed economy and capitalism everything is private.

You are beating yourself with your incomplete knowledge of politics and economics!

To be honest I don't know whatt kind of currency system would work best for a country as big and diverse as ours, but I do prefer the idea of competing currencies because it would be extremely difficult for anyone to take control of them.

I agree with you on the nature of our corporate government and not letting them be in control of more than they already are (preferably less), but if their friends at the federal reserve lost the power to control the flow of the currency through bribes etc., they would also lose influence over our representatives. At least in theory.

reply to post by frazzle


Well if there was anything positive about the Federal Reserve it was that it provided for a single currency that every american recognised as legitimate tender. Can you imagine the ensuing confusion of americans alone having 5-10-20 currencies to peg against each other? It would be horrible for business, and then adding foreigners to the picture makes it an out-of-control nightmare. The only plus and sure it would be big, is that european bankers would lose all their influence.

The only 100% effective way to solve the problem is first nationalising the government and its agencies and THEN nationalising the treasury notes(no more federal reserve notes). The government issues and lends its own currency to the commercial banks and collects the interest, then add tariffs and the rest if necessary from taxation. Taxes would go waaaayyyyyyyyy down.

It all seems like a pipe dream but given enough people pressure it is plausible!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Why not? Are the markets too holy to be touched or what?

If you have rational arguments to refute free markets why rely so heavily on logical fallacies such as the straw man I just quoted? I have said over and over in this thread that free markets by their very definition mean they are unregulated. I also did not argue that a strong central government couldn't regulate markets only that a strong central government does not necessarily mean a government that regulates the market place, and I stand by my assertion that there is nothing about the rule of law that demands market regulation. So, I ask again, why the straw man?

Regulating the markets effectively guarantees scumbags with billions keep their filthy hands out of government and away from the people.

The regulated markets today effectively refute your naive assertion. Quite clearly you are wrong:

Feds Hit Pfizer with a $2.3 Billion Fine

Pfizer (PFE) will pay a record $2.3 billion fine and plead guilty to one felony count to settle federal criminal and civil charges that it illegally promoted its Bextra painkiller and other drugs. The fine had been first reported back in January, but Justice Dept. officials disclosed details of the settlement on Sept. 2 in a splashy news conference that served as a pointed warning to other drug companies that it plans to come down hard on the industry for fraudulent marketing.

Did this "pointed warning" made in 2009 work?

Glaxo Agrees to Pay $3 Billion in Fraud Settlement

In the largest settlement involving a pharmaceutical company, the British drugmaker GlaxoSmithKline agreed to plead guilty to criminal charges and pay $3 billion in fines for promoting its best-selling antidepressants for unapproved uses and failing to report safety data about a top diabetes drug, federal prosecutors announced Monday. The agreement also includes civil penalties for improper marketing of a half-dozen other drugs.

Of course, both Pfizer and GlaxoSmithKine will simply just hand over the money and keep going on about their business. Nice little arrangement between government and corporation, and the fraud will just continue, while you keep insisting on how well regulation works. It works well for governments, and corporations but not the vaunted People you pretend to favor.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by frazzle

 

Well if there was anything positive about the Federal Reserve it was that it provided for a single currency that every american recognised as legitimate tender. Can you imagine the ensuing confusion of americans alone having 5-10-20 currencies to peg against each other? It would be horrible for business, and then adding foreigners to the picture makes it an out-of-control nightmare. The only plus and sure it would be big, is that european bankers would lose all their influence.

The only 100% effective way to solve the problem is first nationalising the government and its agencies and THEN nationalising the treasury notes(no more federal reserve notes). The government issues and lends its own currency to the commercial banks and collects the interest, then add tariffs and the rest if necessary from taxation. Taxes would go waaaayyyyyyyyy down.

It all seems like a pipe dream but given enough people pressure it is plausible!

I am by no means an expert in such matters and Im only speculating (wildly), but if all the states used the same currency, but each one issued XX number of whatevers based on the level of manufacturing and production within their borders and juxtaposed that total against the population numbers, it could possibly maybe somehow work. One thing is for sure, the states would be pushing and shoving to up their production and people would be working their fannies off.

But yes, I am also in favor of tariffs on foreign goods. Before you could pull that one off though, you'd have to outlaw the WTO. I'm all for that, too.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


The government should regulate everything. It is really that simple. And I said the american government does not effectively regulate big business, only small and medium business. A few billions fine is not that great. Still a few billions fine is better than no fine. Only a stupid person would say otherwise.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

The government should regulate everything. It is really that simple. And I said the american government does not effectively regulate big business, only small and medium business. A few billions fine is not that great. Still a few billions fine is better than no fine. Only a stupid person would say otherwise.

Sure, and while your making these bold claims pretend I didn't point to the "regulation" government uses to enrich their coffers, by the billions, and while your at it keep pretending your an enemy to billionaires.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

The government should regulate everything. It is really that simple.

They DO regulate everything. That's why we're in the middle of a depression.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

The government should regulate everything. It is really that simple. And I said the american government does not effectively regulate big business, only small and medium business. A few billions fine is not that great. Still a few billions fine is better than no fine. Only a stupid person would say otherwise.

Sure, and while your making these bold claims pretend I didn't point to the "regulation" government uses to enrich their coffers, by the billions, and while your at it keep pretending your an enemy to billionaires.

I think I am qualified to state the obvious solution which is staring us right in the face. My qualifications...Multiple Decades working for my Family that built up small businesses into large ones as well as my being Self Made in the Entertainment Industry.
Over 80% of all jobs in the U.S. are provided by SMALL BUSINESS...yet neither party has done SQUAT to help SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH! Split Infinity

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

The government should regulate everything. It is really that simple.

They DO regulate everything. That's why we're in the middle of a depression.

Obviously most of the regulations failed miserably on purpose. American corporations are all over the globe exploiting every last resource of every last nation. How did the american government stop them? Americans have to work up to four jobs just to make ends meet. Unions are in the dumpster.

You call that regulation of big business? I call it a disaster!

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Over 80% of all jobs in the U.S. are provided by SMALL BUSINESS...yet neither party has done SQUAT to help SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH! Split Infinity

Two years ago I created a thread called Killing Korporations which offered information on how to go about charter revocation of corporations guilty of malfeasance. It didn't really surprise me that few were interested in such a pro-active solution, and most are really just interested in bitching about corporations, not controlling or destroying them, but what astounded me was a member who entered the thread to dismiss the idea of working for small business. He was defending the corporation while attacking the corporation, but the idea of actually extinguishing a corporation was clearly not anything he wanted because as far as this member was concerned it was the corporations that offered the best jobs.

In terms of regulation, I don't see how unincorporated businesses can even fall under the purview of any regulatory scheme that doesn't have a compelling reason for regulation. The transportation of toxic materials, for example, is a compelling reason to regulate and license, landscaping not. Yet, small business are confronted by local, state, and federal regulation just the same.

The "small" business or independent unincorporated businesses are the answer.

It's plain to see that Americans are just not angry enough to do anything about anything. Sorry for the minimal response, but that's how I see it.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

The government should regulate everything. It is really that simple.

They DO regulate everything. That's why we're in the middle of a depression.

Obviously most of the regulations failed miserably on purpose. American corporations are all over the globe exploiting every last resource of every last nation. How did the american government stop them? Americans have to work up to four jobs just to make ends meet. Unions are in the dumpster.

You call that regulation of big business? I call it a disaster!

They regulate what you can do to stop big business from raping you. Which is nothing.

Remember, the government is a corporation, just like the federal reserve banks, just like the City of London bankers who got merry old England to pass the currency act for the benefit of themselves and the king, which brought the colonies to their knees. That's regulation ~ regulating who gets the spoils. That's why American and international corporations are all over the world raping resources, resources are spoils to be regulated by government right into the hands of government and their corporate sponsors.

You get crumbs that might accidentally fall off the king's plate.

Politicians get rich from the corporations who send them in to do their bidding. To do this states need to impose term limits on congress critters and senators and outlaw the lobbyists. Congress will never do this.The states are in their pockets now too to a large degree, thanks in part to the shortsightedness of the tea party and other suckers who keep believing in some pipe dream, though maybe to a lesser degree.

The only way these angry American people can make a real difference or get real change is to set aside petty social differences and destroy theses faux financial "systems" and "rules" that tether us and control us at their core...unionize even if you hate unions, annihilate the credit scoring systems they use to track our fall and destruction and to manipulate and control us even more even if you're proud of your excellent "scores" (trust me they can drop in a heartbeat) and stop sitting there like dopes as they continue to rob us of our jobs and every penny and lie lie lie to us..

Time to take care of our country first...make and buy and support American again and bring out troops home and to hell with the rest of the world and the "investments" these traitorous corporations who turned their backs on their own country and have these troops out there fighting to protect their idiotic investments at the cost of our country. Stop believing their lies and being distracted by engineered false divisions, believe your own eyes, trust your gut, act like a nation united again, and do something that really matters for a change..Do over.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Two years ago I created a thread called Killing Korporations ...

Yes. Got one on Killing Kongress?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

Over 80% of all jobs in the U.S. are provided by SMALL BUSINESS...yet neither party has done SQUAT to help SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH! Split Infinity

Two years ago I created a thread called Killing Korporations which offered information on how to go about charter revocation of corporations guilty of malfeasance. It didn't really surprise me that few were interested in such a pro-active solution, and most are really just interested in bitching about corporations, not controlling or destroying them, but what astounded me was a member who entered the thread to dismiss the idea of working for small business. He was defending the corporation while attacking the corporation, but the idea of actually extinguishing a corporation was clearly not anything he wanted because as far as this member was concerned it was the corporations that offered the best jobs.

In terms of regulation, I don't see how unincorporated businesses can even fall under the purview of any regulatory scheme that doesn't have a compelling reason for regulation. The transportation of toxic materials, for example, is a compelling reason to regulate and license, landscaping not. Yet, small business are confronted by local, state, and federal regulation just the same.

The "small" business or independent unincorporated businesses are the answer.

Looks interesting and informative so I bumped it back to the top and subscribed to it for tomorrow's assignment. I wasn't here two years ago, thanks for linking it for us newbies.

reply to post by frazzle


Thanks for bumping it, my friend. At the time I wrote it I had a pretty hard line stance towards corporations, and I remain hardline as an anti-corporatist, but since that time I've had personal experiences and through more research have come to understand that corporations can and do do good. I used to think we simply needed to end the corporate system all together, but the corporation can be a valuable asset to economy.

This got me to thinking about the idea of parallel markets. The nature of the corporation, it being a chartered entity created by the state, means it is, from its inception regulated, and should be. The sole proprietor or unincorporated or non-chartered partnerships should not be regulated, unless they are engaged in some practice that compels licensing and regulation. If the nature of the business requires licensing and regulation, that business may as well incorporate and enjoy the benefits that come with it, but outside those activities that compel government to regulate, the government should stay out.

This is what I mean by parallel markets. The regulated corporate market and the free market. Why should Coca-Cola and Pepsi enjoy the duopoly they do? The smaller soda or beverage companies struggle to compete for many reasons, but regulation is one of them and a big reason. An incorporated beverage company should not have to deal with the FDA, only the corporations that deal with food and drugs.

I must be out of touch with this community.

For months now certain posters have told us that America is no longer a democracy. We are now a Plutocracy. The major corporations run this country, not the pople of these United States. Corporations control our courts, our elections, the President (regardless of party) and Congress.

This is where the policies of the last 30 years have brought us.

Can anyone reading this tell us honestly that this is the best America can do?

I'm not anti corporation. I am anti usurping of the power of the American people. What bothers me most is there is a solid group defending this Plutocracy. This drives me nuts. All of us have a civic responsibility, and it's not to toss our country to the wolves.

As to all this rubbish about redistribution of wealth.

Flat tax... no exemptions ...10% no matter who you are and that's the end of it.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Well, I'm looking forward to knowing more about your old hard line stance because letting the market decide is still where I'm at. Big or small, if a business harms someone that business should become "someone and associates". Skip this silly fines business, no one ever knows if these little hand slaps to corps like Smith Glaxo are ever paid, or to whom they're paid, or how they're spent. The true victims get pennies, if that.

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Well, I'm looking forward to knowing more about your old hard line stance because letting the market decide is still where I'm at. Big or small, if a business harms someone that business should become "someone and associates". Skip this silly fines business, no one ever knows if these little hand slaps to corps like Smith Glaxo are ever paid, or to whom they're paid, or how they're spent. The true victims get pennies, if that.

I completely agree with that. I just used to think there shouldn't be corporations at all. Corporate malfeasance, however, should lead to charter revocation, for all corporations regardless of their size. Pfizer and GlaxoSmith are both guilty of fraud. Fraud is a crime, and if corporations are going to be defined by Congress as a "person" than that "person" needs to pay for the crime. Since corporations cannot be put in prison, then killing them is the only answer.

reply to post by averageGuy505

For months now certain posters have told us that America is no longer a democracy.

For years now I've been insisting that the U.S. has never been a democracy, and because the Constitution itself is fiercely anti-democracy, no amount of calling it a democracy will make it so.