It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

To hate Jews is to hate God.

page: 6
1
<< 3  4  5   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 11:18 AM
link   
reply to post by AfterInfinity
 



Do you know the difference between punishment and consequence?
The distinction is not as clear as you make it out to be, especially when you are dealing with God. You seem to be saying that punishment is what a sentient being does when someone screws up, consequence is what nature does when someone screws up. Isn't God, at least for these purposes, both?

Which is more appropriate, in your opinion?
If you drop a ball, it falls. How can that be judged as appropriate or inappropriate? When a person judges, he can be correct or incorrect in his judgment, but God's is always correct, or appropriate.

According to the Bible, quite literally, God's name is Jealous. Everyone whom I've known to be jealous has been neither judicious nor merciful. Therefore, we have a contradiction of terms here. How unsurprising.
That's because you and the Bible are using two different definitions for the word.

Then justice allows no chance for committal to change? How is that any different from petty revenge? There is no mercy in such philosophy. No mercy or love.
If one decides, consciously, seriously, with mature adult thought that they do not want to live with God and be subject to Him, and keep that decision until the end of their life, then they are granted their wish. We do that on earth, too. God just does it on an eternal time scale.

Your god has a flawed concept of justice, as I have shown above.
Interesting idea, that. Of course I don't believe you have shown that at all, but let me ask you a question. If you believe that God's justice is not perfect, then you must have an idea of what perfect justice is. Where did that idea come from? Is it the idea that you happen to be comfortable with? Is it the idea that some fallible human taught you? The idea that the crowd you travel with accepts? Do you have a different god with a superior justice? Who might that god be?

This is not directed at me, but I'm still laughing. Your premise is full of holes, and you are upset when someone calls you a liar. Admittedly, you aren't lying...you're simply mistaken. However, it's a very grevious mistake.

WHAT?!?! You're laughing at me for being upset when someone calls me a liar, then you point out that I wasn't lying? If I call your mother a slut, then she gets upset, and I say "Maybe you're not a slut, but you are wearing make up." Wouldn't that leave her wondering? Is honor a joke, now?

And I am not prepared to say that because we have a disagreement, that proves I am wrong.




posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 12:26 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 



The distinction is not as clear as you make it out to be, especially when you are dealing with God. You seem to be saying that punishment is what a sentient being does when someone screws up, consequence is what nature does when someone screws up. Isn't God, at least for these purposes, both?


Do tell me where you learned to understand a being that is purportedly infinite in nature...quite beyond the capability of a finite mind, theoretically.


If you drop a ball, it falls. How can that be judged as appropriate or inappropriate? When a person judges, he can be correct or incorrect in his judgment, but God's is always correct, or appropriate.


What you speak of is slamming the ball against the ground repeatedly because it didn't bounce like you wanted it to. Once that fails to ahieve the desired results, you simply throw it into a fire for opposing your desires...despite the fact that its nature doesn't allow it to bounce.



That's because you and the Bible are using two different definitions for the word.


I didn't know there were two different definitions to the word 'jealous'. Are you even listening to yourself?


If one decides, consciously, seriously, with mature adult thought that they do not want to live with God and be subject to Him, and keep that decision until the end of their life, then they are granted their wish. We do that on earth, too. God just does it on an eternal time scale.


Mature adult thought? And yet we have Sunday School for CHILDREN...thereby invalidating that argument.


ask, and ye shall receive


So according to you, this scripture is a lie. You can't just ask, you also have to do everything God wants. That makes it sound more like a bargain...interesting, I was under the impression that it was a GIFT. Funny how your beliefs contradict the very material they are based on, eh?


Interesting idea, that. Of course I don't believe you have shown that at all, but let me ask you a question. If you believe that God's justice is not perfect, then you must have an idea of what perfect justice is. Where did that idea come from? Is it the idea that you happen to be comfortable with? Is it the idea that some fallible human taught you? The idea that the crowd you travel with accepts? Do you have a different god with a superior justice? Who might that god be?


My god isn't the one in question, although I'll answer you so far as to say that I don't believe in a GOD. No one can adeuqately define exactly what makes a being a god, so it's a very loose definition/label/term at best.

Justice is meted out as being the natural consequences of an unbalanced interaction, not as a petty tantrum thrown by a powerful being who didn't get what he wanted. And as far as the Bible says, our happiness is dependent on the happiness of this being, which to me is unfair, considering he's the one who created us (supposedly). And nowhere in the Bible does it say "In the beginning, God created the earth and all of its inhabitants to serve his every desire and humiliate themselves for his pleasure." Therefore, I see every punishment that he deals as a tantrum...because he created us that way, then whines when his design turns out to be broken and blames it on us.

There is no justice in that.


WHAT?!?! You're laughing at me for being upset when someone calls me a liar, then you point out that I wasn't lying? If I call your mother a slut, then she gets upset, and I say "Maybe you're not a slut, but you are wearing make up." Wouldn't that leave her wondering? Is honor a joke, now?


Most of that was not worth responding to. But the only way to make a joke out of something that is nonexistent, is by poking at the nonexistence. And in that sense...yes, I suppose it is a joke.


Is there anything else you wanted to TRY to prove?



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 01:20 PM
link   
reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

Thank you, this is kind of fun in a whack-a-mole kind of way.

Do tell me where you learned to understand a being that is purportedly infinite in nature...quite beyond the capability of a finite mind, theoretically.
I never claimed to understand God, as you know. I merely meant that he has two sets of characteristics; one that He is like a force of nature, and two that He is a sentient being. Neither of those should have caused you any confusion.

What you speak of is slamming the ball against the ground repeatedly because it didn't bounce like you wanted it to. Once that fails to ahieve the desired results, you simply throw it into a fire for opposing your desires...despite the fact that its nature doesn't allow it to bounce.
Except for using the word "ball," it seems you have misinterpreted me and created an entirely new and different analogy. Are you saying that our nature doesn't allow us to be acceptable to God? What nature do you mean?

I didn't know there were two different definitions to the word 'jealous'. Are you even listening to yourself?

A strong feeling of possessiveness, often caused by the possibility that something which belongs, or ought to belong, to one is about to be taken away. The word can be used in a positive sense (e.g., the jealousy of God), meaning a passionate commitment to something which rightly belongs to one. It can also be used in a negative sense (e.g., human jealousy), to mean a self-destructive human emotion similar to envy.


Mature adult thought? And yet we have Sunday School for CHILDREN...thereby invalidating that argument.
How do you get to mature adult thought without learning to think as children? Invalidating? No, it is supporting.

ask, and ye shall receive

So according to you, this scripture is a lie. You can't just ask, you also have to do everything God wants. That makes it sound more like a bargain...interesting, I was under the impression that it was a GIFT. Funny how your beliefs contradict the very material they are based on, eh?
What? Where does this come from? What are you talking about? If my beliefs are in error, I will correct them, but what is this all about?

My god isn't the one in question, although I'll answer you so far as to say that I don't believe in a GOD. No one can adeuqately define exactly what makes a being a god, so it's a very loose definition/label/term at best.
Surely you know, with the studying and thinking you've done, whether your god is a sentient being, or a natural force. Whether you god created or was created. Whether he is eternal or limited in time. Etc.

Justice is meted out as being the natural consequences of an unbalanced interaction, not as a petty tantrum thrown by a powerful being who didn't get what he wanted.
So justice is what nature does to you for committing a wrong act. In this life? We know from experience that that doesn't happen. So you're going with reincarnation or a judging god.

And nowhere in the Bible does it say "In the beginning, God created the earth and all of its inhabitants to serve his every desire and humiliate themselves for his pleasure."
You're right, but what it might have said was that "God created earth and all of it's inhabitants to reach the highest possible joy. A joy that would make Him joyful, because we were in the right." When your kid graduates from high school at the top of his class are you not happy for him? When a soul graduates from life to Heaven, do you think that God is not happy for him? That's why we were created, so we can be happy being with God and He can be happy being with us.

Therefore, I see every punishment that he deals as a tantrum...because he created us that way, then whines when his design turns out to be broken and blames it on us.
Neither the Bible nor I think he created us to do wrong things. We have the dignity of being free to choose what we want to do. I'm grateful He made us that way and not as puppets.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:09 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 



I never claimed to understand God, as you know.


My apologies. Are you suggesting that nature destroys man for not worshipping it? If that's the case, we would have been dead long ago, thanks to Christianity stomping out paganism...although it has taken pieces of it to help build its own stigma. Either way, we have destroyed nature. If God were nature, in the sense of physically natural, then we would be dead because of the damage we've done to nature.

If you mean the karmic process, then I agree with you...to a point. BEING nature and DESIGNING nature...there's a certain balance of mixture to these things...


Except for using the word "ball," it seems you have misinterpreted me and created an entirely new and different analogy. Are you saying that our nature doesn't allow us to be acceptable to God? What nature do you mean?


As I'm sure you can see from our modern world, previous cultures have proven...stringent. Extremely purist, more specifically. But we have evolved from that. In doing so, in finding a more free way of life, we have broken almost half the rules in the Bible. Not only do we not fully understand the Bible, but it even describes us as being broken; hence the flood and other calamities visited upon us. God asks things from us that are not only unacceptable coming from a benevolent and omnipotent being, but are also against the way we are biologically designed. First, ban physical pleasures and all thought of physical pleasures, except under very specific circumstances. Like sex and bacon. Second, break all of these rules if I tell you to, no questions asked. Third, you are not allowed to ask questions or think too deeply about your faith, because God forbid (pun intended) you actually discover the number of holes in the story.

We have already been told that as we are, we are unacceptable to God. Why do you think Jesus had to die for all of our sins for all of eternity?


meaning a passionate commitment to something which rightly belongs to one


Oh, look at that one. That's a very pretty sycophantic definition. I know, it's official, but it's a shame...see, how does a loving and benevolent god let bad things happen when they don't need to? We already believe in coincidence, it can't be that hard. And yet, a passionate commitment. So all those jealous murders are because of rejection of commitment? That's what it's all about?

We go to jail for that kind of thing. Just one more crime (well, a lot of crimes, actually) on the laundry list of character defects this God person has. Is God above the morals we set for ourselves? Is that why they tell me he's perfect?


How do you get to mature adult thought without learning to think as children? Invalidating? No, it is supporting.


Learning to think...hmm, yes, I can think of a few people I know that were ignored when they started to ask too many questions, and I know a few more who were told flat-out that they were going to hell. Their priest denied them absolution.

Is that what you call educating? Or is it that children are taught mantras and positive anchors (basic psychology, if you aren't aware) that will ingrain Pavlov-esque connections to certain ideas? Is it that? The constant repeating of lines that impound a very specific belief?

Oh, okay. We'll call it "education" then, not "training".


What? Where does this come from? What are you talking about? If my beliefs are in error, I will correct them, but what is this all about?


It is specifically called a "gift" in the Bible. The gift of the Lord? Ever heard of it? Gifts are given freely. Something that is given with strings attached is called a "bribe" or a "good", as in trading. Because that's what it is, right? Trading your fate for a future of eternal servitude, so long as they guy who created you doesn't throw in a fiery pit for controlling your own life.

The contradiction here amused me because you are arguing about a belief that isn't even based on the Bible...although you seem firmly convinced otherwise.


Surely you know, with the studying and thinking you've done, whether your god is a sentient being, or a natural force. Whether you god created or was created. Whether he is eternal or limited in time. Etc.


Really? You have a degree in physics, biology, chemistry, and philosophy? My, you really are established! Unless...well, if you don't, you can't really say for certain exactly what a god is. Can you even prove YOUR god exists? As you "know" him? With evidence...I won't take it on pure faith.


So justice is what nature does to you for committing a wrong act. In this life? We know from experience that that doesn't happen. So you're going with reincarnation or a judging god.


Yes, precisely as nature was designed. Now, I'm talking about nature as in the nature of humans, animals, plants, and physics itself. The natural order of this reality. I do believe in reincarnation...there are too many accounts where specialists have been befuddled. A judging god? No, I believe in a consciousness that has designed a sort of energy flow that is present everywhere, and that energy flow will influence events depending on how other events influence it, in real-time. It may take a while, but it will always affect events. And events will always affect it. This is the justice that is naturally meted out. It was designed, and it was formed.


"God created earth and all of it's inhabitants to reach the highest possible joy. A joy that would make Him joyful, because we were in the right."


And what's the right?


Neither the Bible nor I think he created us to do wrong things. We have the dignity of being free to choose what we want to do. I'm grateful He made us that way and not as puppets.


And then given the choice between eternal damnation and eternal servitude. I believe we call that blackmail. A rock and a hard place...considering we've never taken kindly to serving each other, let alone a higher being. And you can bet that if aliens show up, we won't serve them either. Yet the fact that we are serving this guy says that we are faced with a horrible alternative indeed...and that we've been heavily worked on to ingrain this faith in us. We cannot even ask questions, or we are reprimanded. Any questions we CAN ask are answered with such fluffy non-answers that it isn't even worth trying. Even if you can accept that they are telling the truth, there's a lot that they AREN'T telling.

What answers are they afraid of? That's the question to ask.









edit on 10-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:04 PM
link   
reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

Yes, we are within hailing distance of one another on this point.

I didn't mean to say the God is nature, or that nature is God. I was trying for something that is a little fuzzy even for me. If you hit a ball on a pool table you can accurately plot out its path and final stopping point. (Unless something intervenes.) That happens because the ball follows the laws of physics. (OK, hold on, here comes the fuzzy part.) When we hit the ball of our life in a certain way, God can plot it's path and it's eventual stopping point. Unless, something intervenes. For Christians, one of those interventions was Jesus. If you talk with many Christians you'll find some who are completely convinced that God intervened in their life somehow.

The nature or karma part of the analogy is that your life will follow a certain predictable path unless there is an intervention. The sentient being part is setting up the table and balls in the first place and the interventions that make the game.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:07 PM
link   
reply to post by charles1952
 


When you speak of intervention...that's the difficulty: we can't see the intervening karmic energies in life. We have to rely on our morals and our intellect. But when you only plan to shoot the ball straight, and never get creative with it, you never learn to really play.

And so with life.



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 01:28 PM
link   
Charles

"If one decides, consciously, seriously, with mature adult thought that they do not want to live with God and be subject to Him, and keep that decision until the end of their life, then they are granted their wish. We do that on earth, too. God just does it on an eternal time scale. "

Yes and instead of sending him peacefully on his way, he sends his to purposeless eternal torture and suffering.
That is cruelty beyond compare and you adore this vindictive S O B.
No wonder you have no conception of justice.

www.youtube.com...

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2012, not 112.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



new topics

top topics



 
1
<< 3  4  5   >>

log in

join