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To hate Jews is to hate God.

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


You state this, yet you persist. Doesn't this strike you as somewhat hypocritical?


No. I do not tend to make definitive statements about God. God is an entity that we know little of as we have no real facts. We do have a lot of conjecture and opinions but no facts. Unless you think a book that starts with a talking snake and ends with a seven headed monster is giving you real facts. If you do, then Mother Goose must also be real.

That is why even some well-known right wing preachers and scholars opt out for a more sane view of religion.
Like this Bishop. He is brighter and more honest than most Christians.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
To hate Jews is to hate God.

Technically .. wouldn't it be 'to hate any human being is to hate God'??
The commandment is Love thy neighbor.
So to hate your neighbor is to hate Gods commands and therefore hate God.
(you can hate what they do .. but you can't hate THEM)
Right?
edit on 7/5/2012 by FlyersFan because: fixed quote



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


You comment on every post anyone makes to this thread. You infer a lot more than the posters probably implied and then exaggerate it. Why do you feel you must do this?

Please, if you want to comment, by all means do so, but try not to extinguish the thread this way. You have two full pages of comments in a thread a scant five pages in length. Say what you want to say but do not, please, deliberately inflame.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Greatest I am
To hate Jews is to hate God.

Technically .. wouldn't it be 'to hate any human being is to hate God'??
The commandment is Love thy neighbor.
So to hate your neighbor is to hate Gods commands and therefore hate God.
(you can hate what they do .. but you can't hate THEM)
Right?
edit on 7/5/2012 by FlyersFan because: fixed quote


Does God --- love thy neighbor --- when he sends the vast majority of us to hell?
If God hates sinners, and scriptures show that he does quite a lot, and we are supposed to emulate him, are we then not being told to hate all those he hates?

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Does God --- love thy neighbor --- when he sends the vast majority of us to hell?
I'm surprised you believe this. He doesn't send us, He allows us to choose whether we want to spend eternity with Him. Look around ATS, you'll find dozens of people who don't want to. He'll let them go their own way.

If God hates sinners, and scriptures show that he does quite a lot, and we are supposed to emulate him, are we then not being told to hate all those he hates?
Christians (as opposed to Old Testament Jews) are taught to hate what God hates, but to love people. That's where the famous "Hate the sin, but love the sinner" line comes from.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Does God --- love thy neighbor --- when he sends the vast majority of us to hell?
I'm surprised you believe this. He doesn't send us, He allows us to choose whether we want to spend eternity with Him. Look around ATS, you'll find dozens of people who don't want to. He'll let them go their own way.

If God hates sinners, and scriptures show that he does quite a lot, and we are supposed to emulate him, are we then not being told to hate all those he hates?
Christians (as opposed to Old Testament Jews) are taught to hate what God hates, but to love people. That's where the famous "Hate the sin, but love the sinner" line comes from.


Do you think many, after we actually have full disclosure of God's existence, will choose everlasting torture in hell instead of God?

Bear in mind that scriptures say that the vast majority will take that wide road to hell.
Is God's heaven more unpleasant than hell?

""Christians (as opposed to Old Testament Jews) are taught to hate what God hates, but to love people.""

Yet your bible shows God hating many. So in effect, you are saying that Christians are to hate most people. Right?

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Yes. You go to hell for not doing exactly as he wants. You know, a lot of comparisons can be made between the traditional Catholic or Christian and the Nazis...sure, they've changed, but you still believe that we have to pretty much oppose our entire human nature in order to go to heaven.

The Bible was written during times when a papercut meant death. Times have changed, and religion must follow suit. You know, update? Become more sensible?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Dear Greatest I am,

Interesting thoughts, thank you.

Do you think many, after we actually have full disclosure of God's existence, will choose everlasting torture in hell instead of God?
I would argue that we've already had full disclosure of God's existence, and we spend all our life coming to a decision about what we're going to do about His existence. Many on ATS, hate God, call Him names, don't want to have anything to do with Him. OK, He can do that.


Bear in mind that scriptures say that the vast majority will take that wide road to hell.
Yes, and I believe that many will. There is nothing sadder.


Yet your bible shows God hating many. So in effect, you are saying that Christians are to hate most people. Right?
No, God doesn't ask Christians to hate people. Would you find some places in the New Testament where that is taught? I would expect you could find several. I pray for the people that are on the road to Hell, so does the Church. God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell, but He knows some will.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


No, we haven't had full disclosure. The main problem most people have is one) how the hell do you create an earth in 6 days, and two) why does an omnipotent benevolent being allow so much "evil" to happen.

The difficulty lies in accepting that many times, you have the power to change something, but look to the future and realize you shouldn't. That just doesn't make sense to a society that knows nothing about seeing the future. Additionally, they question the morality of "God": why would you send a stillborn to hell?

For these reasons, I think that a higher power does exist, but my belief stands under two immovable conditions: First of all, God is nothing like we imagine it to be. That's why I simply call it "Source". Second, no human on or near Earth knows God as much as they pretend to. Our minds are so small and underdeveloped, how can we possibly grasp an infinite concept? We pretend to know "God" because it helps us grant meaning in our lives. We can't live without meaning, because that makes everything pointless. You live, and then you die.

And if there's one thing that terrifies us as a species, it's the idea of an absolute end. We have too much fun in life, and hate pain and suffering too much, to like ending.
edit on 5-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

Dear AfterInfinity,

Thanks a lot, that was thoughtful, reasonable, and interesting. Let me play with it for a while.


No, we haven't had full disclosure.
Well, I'm in a little different position, I accept the New Testament and count that as pretty clear disclosure and evidence of the existence of God.

The main problem most people have is one) how the hell do you create an earth in 6 days
I'm astonished that it was created at all. I still can't find a "First Cause" or "Prime Mover" without God, even in quantum physics. The 6 days part? Not a big deal, at least to me. Could have been symbolism, mis-translation, a true event, whatever, and it doesn't change anything much for me.

and two) why does an omnipotent benevolent being allow so much "evil" to happen.
That's a pretty famous and stubborn question. I've heard that Job was one of the first books of the Old Testament. In that book God answered that question in a way that some people find satisfactory and some don't. There have been several answers proposed and argued about. You've given one yourself:

Our minds are so small and underdeveloped, how can we possibly grasp an infinite concept?
we're not going to get an answer to everything.

The difficulty lies in accepting that many times, you have the power to change something, but look to the future and realize you shouldn't. That just doesn't make sense to a society that knows nothing about seeing the future.
You're absolutely right, it is hard, but we can look into the past. If the world hadn't imposed such harsh surrender terms on Germany at the end of WWI we would have been much less likely to have Hitler and WWII.

Additionally, they question the morality of "God": why would you send a stillborn to hell?
WOW!! Who teaches that? I know the Catholics don't. For the Catholics, you have to make a choice for hell or against God, and be in the state at death. (Maybe I over-simplified, but I know I'm close)

For these reasons, I think that a higher power does exist, but my belief stands under two immovable conditions: First of all, God is nothing like we imagine it to be. That's why I simply call it "Source".
I agree completely that He is unimaginable, and calling Him "Source" helps us to avoid some anthropomorphic errors. But relying on "Source" as His only description can lead us into other kinds of errors. Perhaps we would see "Source" as too mechanical, distant, or inhuman.

Second, no human on or near Earth knows God as much as they pretend to. Our minds are so small and underdeveloped, how can we possibly grasp an infinite concept?
I don't know about "pretend," but you're quite right that we can get into habits of thinking that aren't justified by the evidence.

We pretend to know "God" because it helps us grant meaning in our lives. We can't live without meaning, because that makes everything pointless.
I want to know God because He is truth, and I want that as much as any scientist does. Truth is the point.

You live, and then you die.
And we have been assured that we live again.

And if there's one thing that terrifies us as a species, it's the idea of an absolute end. We have too much fun in life, and hate pain and suffering too much, to like ending.
And we have been promised, by a reliable source, that we will not have an absolute end.

Pope John Paul II had a motto: "Fear Not." Seems like good advice.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:55 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Dear Greatest I am,

Interesting thoughts, thank you.

Do you think many, after we actually have full disclosure of God's existence, will choose everlasting torture in hell instead of God?
I would argue that we've already had full disclosure of God's existence, and we spend all our life coming to a decision about what we're going to do about His existence. Many on ATS, hate God, call Him names, don't want to have anything to do with Him. OK, He can do that.


Bear in mind that scriptures say that the vast majority will take that wide road to hell.
Yes, and I believe that many will. There is nothing sadder.


Yet your bible shows God hating many. So in effect, you are saying that Christians are to hate most people. Right?
No, God doesn't ask Christians to hate people. Would you find some places in the New Testament where that is taught? I would expect you could find several. I pray for the people that are on the road to Hell, so does the Church. God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell, but He knows some will.

With respect,
Charles1952


You lie so naturally.
How can an absentee God possibly give full disclosure when he hides himself?
If you are finished with lies, try giving truthful answers to what follows and you will know for yourself that there could not possibly be a hell.

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice. God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because you think God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

Further. listen to this bishop and learn.

www.youtube.com...

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2012, not 112.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Does God --- love thy neighbor --- when he sends the vast majority of us to hell?

Supposedly those who go to hell send themselves.
Think about it .. it makes sense.

People who hate God dont' want to go to heaven. It would be a horrid thing for them to have to be around an all powerful God whom they hate. So they'd rather go to Hell where God isn't as present rather than spend eternity in his presence in Heaven. That makes sense.

I'd reword your question ... Does God - love thy neighbor - when he sends down suffering and disease and illness, and when the doesn't cure those who are sick and suffering, like the little children with cancer, etc etc???

That's a better question ... one that people have pondered and continue to ponder ...



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Does God --- love thy neighbor --- when he sends the vast majority of us to hell?

Supposedly those who go to hell send themselves.
Think about it .. it makes sense.

People who hate God dont' want to go to heaven. It would be a horrid thing for them to have to be around an all powerful God whom they hate. So they'd rather go to Hell where God isn't as present rather than spend eternity in his presence in Heaven. That makes sense.

I'd reword your question ... Does God - love thy neighbor - when he sends down suffering and disease and illness, and when the doesn't cure those who are sick and suffering, like the little children with cancer, etc etc???

That's a better question ... one that people have pondered and continue to ponder ...


Good questions but believers hide in dogma and traditional apologetics and will not question their religions even as they say that their brand of God has all the answers.

Rather disingenuous to imply that the vast majority of people are insane enough to send themselves to eternal purposeless torture in the traditional hell.

Regards
DL
edit on 9-7-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL


I am happy to hear some positive posting. According to my beliefs, Christians are mysteriously doing as you say, it is an unkown reason to me why the Jews have always rebelled God, and to this day they are still unconsciously doing it.

I think it is interesting, I hold Jewish people as sacred, that they should believe in their religion and that they are rooted in spirituality. I am also a Christian. Do you see the missing link of the world? People simply do not recognize love, spirituality, and religion from a rational perspective. If I was sitting at a dinner table with a Jew we should be able to talk about the NT just as we talk about the OT.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by greyer
 


I guess the better question is: Are Jews patient and Christians greedy?



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by greyer
 


I guess the better question is: Are Jews patient and Christians greedy?


People have claimed me of generalizing things, I don't think it gets more general than those two questions. Patience is a virtue and has not much to do with anything but that it will help you in situations where it is needed. Greed is something many in thw world have and I don't think can be labeled towards any religion in particular.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL


I am happy to hear some positive posting. According to my beliefs, Christians are mysteriously doing as you say, it is an unkown reason to me why the Jews have always rebelled God, and to this day they are still unconsciously doing it.

I think it is interesting, I hold Jewish people as sacred, that they should believe in their religion and that they are rooted in spirituality. I am also a Christian. Do you see the missing link of the world? People simply do not recognize love, spirituality, and religion from a rational perspective. If I was sitting at a dinner table with a Jew we should be able to talk about the NT just as we talk about the OT.


Yes. Jews do seem to have had a love hare relationship with God.

Quite healthy that FMPOV. They seem to have known about the customs in this link.

www.youtube.com...

I like your perspective on spirituality but do not tie that to religion. Neither does the bishop in the following.
Then again, he is one of the few honest ones.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by greyer
 


I guess the better question is: Are Jews patient and Christians greedy?


People have claimed me of generalizing things, I don't think it gets more general than those two questions. Patience is a virtue and has not much to do with anything but that it will help you in situations where it is needed. Greed is something many in thw world have and I don't think can be labeled towards any religion in particular.


True to a point.
This is on Mormons but would apply to all religions.
Imagine if all religions spent that kind of wealth in a poor country on a hospital of the same value.
Jesus did say to look to the poor yet the Vatican is one of the richest corporations in the world and they do not.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

I will answer the questions you have asked me to.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?
It is good justice for a person's decision to have the intended result.

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
The Catholic Church says they don't. We do not know what anyone's punishment is, because we do not know their final choice or capacity to sin. God is just and merciful. How that works out in an individual case is not for us to know or judge.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?
You are confusing justice with rehabilitation. It is good justice.

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?
No. Fulfilling justice is a good purpose.

Is hell a moral construct or not?
Please explain your meaning.

Oh, Episopal Bishop Spong is an outlier, an extreme case. He is not accepted as a representative of average or mainstream Christianity.


As you have called me a liar, I can no longer consider you a person to be respected. But perhaps you don't know what a lie is. I take it to mean "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth." If you think I have done that point it out and show evidence, or apologize, or be known as a cur.

--Charles1952



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 



It is good justice for a person's decision to have the intended result.


Do you know the difference between punishment and consequence? Punishment is when someone causes you deliberate discomfort because you did something they don't approve of. Consequence is when nature takes it's course and karma comes back around to bite you on the posterior. Punishment is the judgment of one soul or being upon another. Consequence is the natural order of the universe...what goes around, comes around.

Which is more appropriate, in your opinion?


The Catholic Church says they don't. We do not know what anyone's punishment is, because we do not know their final choice or capacity to sin. God is just and merciful. How that works out in an individual case is not for us to know or judge.


According to the Bible, quite literally, God's name is Jealous. Everyone whom I've known to be jealous has been neither judicious nor merciful. Therefore, we have a contradiction of terms here. How unsurprising.


You are confusing justice with rehabilitation. It is good justice.


Then justice allows no chance for committal to change? How is that any different from petty revenge? There is no mercy in such philosophy. No mercy or love.


No. Fulfilling justice is a good purpose.


Your god has a flawed concept of justice, as I have shown above.



As you have called me a liar, I can no longer consider you a person to be respected.


This is not directed at me, but I'm still laughing. Your premise is full of holes, and you are upset when someone calls you a liar. Admittedly, you aren't lying...you're simply mistaken. However, it's a very grevious mistake.


All it takes for evil to win, is for good men to sit there and do nothing.


Sounds a lot like Christianity...



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