Religion is a disease

reply to post by Lionhearte


Right on, I hear you. Maybe what I meant to say is this. Jesus,isnt actually "God" correct? It is believed there is a being say one level higher right? Well, THAT guy is who I meant to say is the same in all religions. Basically, Im saying I believe there is only One God. One creator, no matter what book your reading about him/her in, its the same entity. Thats why I feel religous wars are redonk. Like the youtube video said "youre from one town over so I hate your guts" .... Complete non-sense to me.

S

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Perhaps before you call an argument pathetic you should make a rebuttal and disprove said theory.

reply to post by Lionhearte

There's proof of a worldwide flood. There's proof of the historical accuracy of the Bible.

No there isn't. There's "evidence" of a world wide ICE AGE and melting glaciers and ice sheets!

There is zero evidence of the historical accuracy of the biblical account of "Noah's flood." Besides, it's impossible to believe that a small group of people of those days could gather all the animals from all the continents, kept them in a big boat, and them put them back in their respective environments/continents after the flood.

There's proof in prophecy. There's proof in miracles. There's proof in prayer. There's proof in witnesses. Common sense should be all you need, but apparently even THAT isn't enough for you, so how could anything else be CONSIDERED proof for you? I guess it can't.

No, there isn't. Maybe it's enough proof for you, but there isn't any empiracle evidence in these claims to even begin to illicit common sense.

Why isn't it morally acceptable to have sex with anyone you see?
Why isn't it morally acceptable to lie, steal or destroy?
Why isn't it morally acceptable to kill someone?

God explains all those pretty well. Can you? Naturally?

Please show me where god explains the "WHY" part of these things you have listed. As I recall, GOD ordered these deeds be done!

"Morally acceptable" is a cultural thing, not a GOD thing.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Why don't you start to prove with at least logical arguments that "good" and "evil" are absolute values or concepts that are independent from any context and any intention/subjectivity ?

On what basis? Would you presume morals are subjective? Good luck with that. Majority opinion does not determine right from wrong, nor does any one man. No one determines it. But we feel it. We FEEL the difference between good and evil, and that comes from God alone. Try to explain it "naturally" - where do morals come from?

Why isn't it morally acceptable to have sex with anyone you see?
Why isn't it morally acceptable to lie, steal or destroy?
Why isn't it morally acceptable to kill someone?

God explains all those pretty well. Can you? Naturally?

Doubt it.

Of course morals are subjective, but what you seem to ignore is that we are all members of the same species, and because of that fact, we share a certain number of things.
To start, we share the same brain, with the same functions. Have you ever heard about empathy, or mirror neurons ? It's what enables us to feel inside us what others may feel inside them, it's what enables us also to learn through imitating, mimicking. Everything you listed is completely explainable within the natural world, without having to resort to a magical being.
There's no "good" or "evil", but there is only suffering/pain and well-being. "Do to others as you would have them do to you" is human philosophy, and not divine commandment. It is human philosophy derived from biological constraints.

Besides, and just for the fun, in a war it is acceptable to kill someone, you can even become a "hero" for doing so. It is acceptable to kill, lie, steal, destroy, if the "others" are considered enemies, so thanks to the subjective and geometrically variable nature of morals. Also, we have seen tribes where "having sex with everyone you see" is morally acceptable and even encouraged.

Uh-oh Vrill, you said dem things which make the 'faithful' go ka-wazy.

For me, there is no doubt of the reality of what I like to call the 'Great Mystery'. As for matters of faith, I prefer intelligent faith rather than blind faith...but I especially love to be challenged, especially what I hold most true. I also greatly appreciate aggressive challenges. I think it is unfortunate that these types of threads are not so embraced simply because they are a direct challenge to what we would otherwise like to keep taking for granted. Everything should be questioned, and explored, even if at times in a manner that is vulger or what have you...if what we hold true cannot withstand such onslaughts, they are not worth our time.

I don't think the problem is so much religion as it is people. Religion can serve as a powerful tool in helping the Journeyer grow wings, but on the flip side, it can also clip their wings or it can be used as a powerful excuse to avoid growing wings altogether.
What hurts religion is our 'baggage', what we bring to the table. Religion should be a living force but we have gotten into the habit of keeping it frozen and stagnate. It's not that the truth changes but rather our understanding of it grows and should grow.

I don't mind Religion as long as it isn't pushed down my throat, unfortunately it is, at work we have a Christian who is forever telling us that we will goto hell if we do not accept Jesus.
If she continues I will put a complaint in cos we are all pig sick of it.

reply to post by Vrill


Your post is a timely one for me. I am doing a 'housecleaning' of sorts, spiritually, getting rid of useless notions from my upbringing and other phases of being that no longer serve the me that I am now. I pondered for a few days of why adults often chastise kids for having imaginary friends, but billions of adults have an imaginary friend...they just call it god. Is god a mass delusion? Is god a necessary social construct? I still feel shameful that I use that construct to relate to others and make them feel a familiarity with me in some settings. I wish our own individual take on the divine and spiritual realms were as widely accepted as the dogmatic principles of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. I am happy to be at a place where I can accept the Watchtower toting JW on my porch with a spot of Earl Grey and my finest teacups and not even share what I believe, but just humor him or her until they get tired of talking. It's a good place to be. Acceptance of others, but stalwart knowledge that a turd is still a turd because you have smelled it to know what it is.

If god prevented all evil then there would be no evil people..therfore no test to see who is a good and rightious person then every one would get into Zion (heaven) without doin jack.

I think Christ went above and beyond the political/religious BS of the time simply by being the perfect example of putting others before self. You don't have to put on a facade with Him because he knows your faults and failures and lifts you up so long as you're seeking Him out. Yeshua = "Yahweh Saves". Its founded in relationship, not rules. Grace is not earned in pilgrimage or meaningless rituals, it is not a wage to be earned. Grace recognizes God as the source of salvation not the actions of the self. Grace is freely given. Grace is a gift.



"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." - John 15:15

Originally posted by Vrill
We're free to choose what we want, but if that choice doesn't involve worshiping our master (without a shred of tangible evidence), we'll be tortured in the most horrible way for eternity....seems legit.

...this isn't at all the picture that the Bible presents.
The Bible presents (repeatedly, through a literary device called "types") the picture of a loving God who offers a solution to man's fundamental problem. Man's fundamental problem is separation from God: this makes hell the logical default destination of man. The dichotomy presented by Scripture is this: "no man can serve two masters." You're either serving God, or you're serving the devil (indirectly or otherwise), there are no other choices. Now, you can disagree with this worldview, but there's nothing cruel or evil in that.

In fact, quite the opposite. God "so loved the world, that He gave His Only Son, that whoever believes in Him might not perish, but have eternal life".

The picture is this:

you're drowning. A rescue helicopter appears overhead and a rope is dropped down to you.


...and you're the drowning man refusing the rope.

That doesn't make you smart. It makes you dead.

Originally posted by CB328

Religion is a tool of enslavement

and Atheism is the result of unresolved apathy

Originally posted by Awen24

In fact, quite the opposite. God "so loved the world, that He gave His Only Son, that whoever believes in Him might not perish, but have eternal life".

He gave his only son? Implying Jesus had no choice in the matter and was forced to endure temporary suffering by his fathers will? Or that Jesus is one with God, so he's basically saying he gave himself up?

In any case Gods only son wasn't truly given up, just momentarily displaced into the mortal realm where billions of humans have endured their trials throughout time. Are all those lifetimes somehow not important when measured up against Jesus' --- who already had eternity past and future set for him in paradise? It's us who over the millenia have to deduce what our beliefs and ideologies will be; without foreknowledge or aid of divine intervention.

And those beliefs VARY far beyond what Biblical scriptures, and many other religious scriptures, assert as the narrow path.

The picture is this:

you're drowning. A rescue helicopter appears overhead and a rope is dropped down to you.

...and you're the drowning man refusing the rope.

That doesn't make you smart. It makes you dead.

That's probably the worst "picture this" I've ever heard. You're trying to make a connection between a physical lifeline and a spiritual one; but your comparison is the essence of Pascals Wager. Newsflash: there's nothing to say that Christianity is the [only] correct belief-system; and to say that rejecting any particular religion is akin to letting yourself drown is simply IGNORANT nonsense.

How's about you guys stop dodging the questions in the OP and stop derailing the thread and try to answer his questions. Oh wait...

I'm not bashing religion, but when so much evidence is given time after time after time after time, and all you can
come up with is "God made it that way", you shouldn't be wondering why some people bash religion like crazy.

Honestly, I don't know why this thread was created, (other than giving out his opinion) because theres no way in hell (no pun intended) that he's going to convince the religious folks that the holes in their faith and beliefs contradict the very things their trying to defend.

One thing I've always wondered is why its a little easier to convert someone into believing, but near
impossible to convert someone into not believing. Have a nice day, non-religious and religious people alike.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I think Christ went above and beyond the political/religious BS of the time simply by being the perfect example of putting others before self. You don't have to put on a facade with Him because he knows your faults and failures and lifts you up so long as you're seeking Him out. Yeshua = "Yahweh Saves". Its founded in relationship, not rules. Grace is not earned in pilgrimage or meaningless rituals, it is not a wage to be earned. Grace recognizes God as the source of salvation not the actions of the self. Grace is freely given. Grace is a gift.

"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." - John 15:15

Nope he wasnt above religion, he was in the thick of it and promoting it. Heres a Jesus quote for you, although im pretty sure you've seen this before people like to forget he said this in Matthew 5:17-20:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

What im referring to specifically about those verses is not the fulfillment bit, but the idea of righteousness. That to me seems like an overtly religious idea. One that causes a lot of trouble not only among religious communities themselves because they like to think they are more righteous than each other, but also for us non-religious folk because we're super non-righteous, lol. I feel like if Jesus was above politics and religion, he would not have introduced the idea of being more righteous than someone else. As for that horrible poet, he contradicts himself over and over in that video lol.

reply to post by Vrill


I prefer to think of my moral values in terms of cause-and-effect. Why should you look both ways before you cross the street? Because you might get hit by a car otherwise. The problem with western religions is that they don't tell you the cause-and-effect part, they just tell you what to do - often times, these are unhealthy values because they have poor cause-and-effect outcomes. Why would they exist, then? Probably because sometime in the distant past, there was a situation such as certain foods being tainted with disease - this would result in a ban on eating those foods, for example.

In today's society, cause and effect should be allowed to be examined in order to determine good moral values.

There is a danger with this, however - ignorant atheists who think they know everything but are blind to certain things like the scientific possibility of a spiritual existence, free will, the value of altruism, and a God.

Both sides reject elements of the other that would otherwise be healthy for them to have on the basis of fearing that would mean losing the good that they already have. What I mean is, atheists won't be caught dead accepting that a spiritual reality could be scientifically proven because they think that means that they will have to accept illogical morals (not true). Religious people refuse to accept logical morals because they think it means they will have to reject altruism and community and spirituality (also not true).

Hopefully a new frontier in science will open up and explore these areas of study in order to illuminate the human race and stop the bickering with understanding.

religion is the way groups of monkeys creatively-flower their natural spiritual impetus. unfortunately monkeys, particularly when they emerge/participate in the uglier aspects of monkey culture, manifest their spiritual impulses into concrete, often unhealthy forms divorced from broader realities. religion is a sleeping person's sad attempt to experience inner truth in their lives, under poor tutelage. enlightenment is transcendence of religion while retaining spirituality. hatred of 'god' is usually a fervent attachment to pseudo-scientific creation fanatsies devoid of the obvious spiritual truth hinted at in modern physics. so the god haters are as 'religiously brainwashed' by their narrow belief systems as any religious followers are. nuf sed.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by Vrill
Epicurus said it best, "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?".

That argument is pathetic and disgraceful.

why? Because you dont have a logical response to it that doesnt include a quote from the bible?

reply to post by Vrill


Hitler said the same thing about Jews, I think intolerance is a disease. Im not religious so I can see BS for what it is.

reply to post by Vrill



As a Christian I can honestly say religion is a disease. Even Christ hates religion. Religion kills what Christ came to do.

So you know what? Your statement is right! and God agrees with you.

I don't believe we should view religion as a disease. Sure, it's always gonna be there, but it isn't like you absolutely
"need" to believe in, support, hate, fetish, etc. It could just be some extra knowledge, and reference.

Somebody had to have written the Bible, Torah, etc. for a reason and for what they believe in. No need make it seem like a negative thing.