Darrell Issa Puts Details of Secret Wiretap Applications in Congressional Record

Yup Holder did lie to congress and should have been held in contempt regardless of whether he gave up those files or not. He was lucky to even get an option.

Originally posted by Juggernog

Yea but werent higher levels of ATF agents involved in the cover up, who were then promoted, AFTER the whistleblower reported this case, who was later fired?

I don't know of promotions, but aside from the resignations... and the one "whistleblower" lawsuit; I have heard of no one being fired... thought there are pleanty of higherups who now get to say "I can't comment on an ongoing investigation." Dodson was removed from duty because of his appearance on the CBS Evening News where he made many allegations that now seem.... incorrect.

Originally posted by openeyeswideshut

So what good does wiretapping do AFTER the sale happened... almost seems like a way to garuntee an aquittal. Don't they need the people acctually saying that they were buying the weapons to get a prosecution out of something like this?

The original operation didn't call for wiretaps... it appears they felt that someone at the poverty level buying thousands of dollars worth of guns would be enough probable cause to get an indictment.... the federal prosecutors office refused... and the state prosecutor who was approached when the ATF got desperate made sure they got no support either.

Originally posted by openeyeswideshut

So why has no one takin steps to try and do this first instead of having the case on holder open first? Wouldn't this give better evidence to open up the case?

I think you and I agree that it seems strangely idiotic to pursue an operation like this without first having "buy-in" from the prosecutor's office. Bear in mind that once the prosecutor says "no bill" (meaning they would not authorize charges") the ATF agents were then forbidden to make arrests. - This is why it got so messy...

Originally posted by openeyeswideshut
reply to post by Juggernog

 

How did congress origionally find out about F&F?

It became public some weeks after the death of Border Patrol Agent Terry... some of his professional acquaintences became "whistleblowers" on the matter....

Problem is the people to whom you "blow the whistle" are all politically appointed .... hence the "big show" we are being treated to now...

reply to post by Maxmars


This is what ive been able to find regarding the promotions of the managers of the operation, whether it is all true or not, hopefully will be answered in the ongoing investigation.

link

Here's what has happened to the managers of the operation:

-- Acting ATF Chief Ken Melson, who oversaw the operation, is now an adviser in the Office of Legal Affairs. He remains in ATF's Washington, D.C., headquarters.

-- Acting Deputy Director Billy Hoover, who knew his agency was walking guns and demanded an "exit strategy" just five months into the program, is now the special agent in charge of the D.C. office. He, too, did not have to relocate.

-- Deputy Director for Field Operations William McMahon received detailed briefings about the illegal operation and later admitted he shares "responsibility for mistakes that were made.” Yet, he also stays in D.C., ironically as the No. 2 man at the ATF's Office of Internal Affairs.

-- Special Agent in Charge of Phoenix Bill Newell, the man most responsible for directly overseeing Fast and Furious, was promoted to the Office of Management in Washington.

-- Phoenix Deputy Chief George Gillette was also promoted to Washington as ATF's liaison to the U.S. Marshal's Service.

-- Group Supervisor David Voth managed Fast and Furious on a day-to-day basis and repeatedly stopped field agents from interdicting weapons headed to the border, according to congressional testimony. ATF boosted Voth to chief of the ATF Tobacco Division, where he now supervises more employees in Washington than he ever did in Phoenix

The original operation didn't call for wiretaps... it appears they felt that someone at the poverty level buying thousands of dollars worth of guns would be enough probable cause to get an indictment.... the federal prosecutors office refused... and the state prosecutor who was approached when the ATF got desperate made sure they got no support either.

yeah but if they dont know who the straw sellers are selling it to, it might be a massive drug cartel that on the books already have legal riches.

I think you and I agree that it seems strangely idiotic to pursue an operation like this without first having "buy-in" from the prosecutor's office. Bear in mind that once the prosecutor says "no bill" (meaning they would not authorize charges") the ATF agents were then forbidden to make arrests. - This is why it got so messy...

I understand the straw sellers rights as citizens to not be detained and harrassed, but could another prosecuter possibly open up a case specifically looking into these peoples involvment with the ones that they sold the guns to?

It became public some weeks after the death of Border Patrol Agent Terry... some of his professional acquaintences became "whistleblowers" on the matter....

Problem is the people to whom you "blow the whistle" are all politically appointed .... hence the "big show" we are being treated to now...

Snitchin to the ones who want it covered up

reply to post by Maxmars


Even if the prosecutors said no bill on the straw purchases, attempting to carry a weapon across the border is a crime. They could have had the Mexican officials pick them up as they crossed the border. It had been done that way in the past.

Instead they refused to inform the Mexican officials and did not tell ATF liaisons working with the Mexican government about it. According to Mexico's Ambassador to the US, he nor anyone he is aware of, was ever advised that these guns were being allowed to walk in hopes of finding them at Mexican crime scenes.

Go to Clean Up The ATF and read about it from actual ATF agents. The agents are basically calling the CNN/Fortune piece the parroting of the position of one of the men originally implicated as being responsible for the whole thing.

I love how people keep trying to spin this as no big deal, or say it was an accident. When none of that flew they came up with "we had to do it because current gun laws are too loose." That didn't fly and now they try to say it was the fault of rouge agents and nobody knew what was happening. When that didn't hold they said. "well prosecutors wouldn't grant an indictment."

You don't have to wait for an indictment. If the agent sees someone performing an illegal act he can arrest them on the spot. An officer can make an arrest if he sees illegal activity, or with probable cause. The common example of a probable cause arrest is,

A police officer receives a report of an armed robbery that has just occurred at a liquor store, then sees a man who matches the suspect's exact description running down the street near the store. The officer detains and searches the man, finding a gun and a large amount of cash in his pockets. The officer can arrest the man, based on a probable cause belief that he committed a robbery.

If an FFL dealer reports a straw purchase and you watch the guy drive the guns to a warehouse and give them to someone else, you have witnessed a crime. That is the definition of a straw purchase. If you see a guy driving 50 AR-15s torwards the border, and he doesn't stop before he reaches the check point, you are possibly witnessing a crime. You have probable cause to believe that he performed a straw purchase and plans to violate laws about carrying weapons and ammunition across the border. You arrest that person and then present your case in hopes of getting an indictment.

Under those circumstance the agents could have made arrests without the okay from any prosecutor. Instead they were told by the very same people quoted in Fortune to stand down. It is time to stop shuffling the blame.

ETA: Voth's response to agents at the ATF that had expressed major concern about the operation.

Whether you care or not people of rank and authority at HQ are paying close attention to this case and they also believe we (Phoenix Group VII) are doing what they envisioned the Southwest Border Groups doing. It may sound cheesy, but we are “The tip of the ATF spear” [sic] when it comes to the Southwest Border Firearms Trafficking.

We need to resolve our issues at this meeting. I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior.

… If you don’t think this is fun, you’re in the wrong line of work— period! This is the pinnacle of domestic U.S. law enforcement techniques. After this the toolbox is empty. Maybe the Maricopa County Jail is hiring detention officers and you can get paid $30,000 (instead of $100,000) to serve lunch to inmates all day.5

Yeah I take his word that Dodson and other whistle blowers are all disgruntled former employees.

Letter from Sen. Grassley to Holder