Originally posted by Der Kapitan
If you profess or practice to violate the rights of another human you forfeit your own rights. I feel it should be that way. Enough protecting the evil #@#$%$#@ who use the constitution to promote hate. Nuff said.

Well, I understand those feelings but I think the mention of KKK has just gone beyond the point I was making.

The actual point is that the KKK has all the makings in my opinion, of a Secret Society. I think it can be proven, unlike many societies I read about in this forum.

Possibly more study will be made to determine how exactly they are a true Secret Society. Obviously none of them really have the cajones to actually stand up in public and defend their "Klub" without wearing a white hood and spouting hate messages. I am more interested in the secrets, the plans, the devil worship.

Anyway, unless someone objects strongly...I plan to take this thread out to the wood shed and put it out of it's misery.

Yes, Zed.

I agree that this is a secret society and that there should be dialogue about that. I have pretty strong feelings on hate groups. I didn't mean to stray the thread into bashing. Actually I am curious about the "rituals" of the Klan. I'm just tired of acts of aggression from groups with a looonggg history of said acts being protected by the constitution. I'm sure the founding fathers didn't have groups like that in mind when they drafted the constitution.

[edit on 7-10-2004 by Der Kapitan]

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
The actual point is that the KKK has all the makings in my opinion, of a Secret Society.

They have secret membership lists, secret rituals, secret meetings, a secret agenda, and, heck, they even wear masks and costumes whenever they might be seen. I'd say thats about as secret as a society can get. The freemasons have secret membership and secret rituals, but no one's ever demonstrated that they have a hidden agenda that they try to keep secret, and their meeting places are plainly visible, and they even allow outsiders to attend parts of their meetings. Plus, it looks like lots of people say that are masons, whereas people try to keep KKK membership hidden.

Anyway, unless someone objects strongly...I plan to take this thread out to the wood shed and put it out of it's misery.

I see no reason to trash the thread. Some people thought it got out of hand, but if you expand it to include groups like the Pioneer Society mentioned above, its definitely got the makings of a conspiratorial group.

Your intial point is well taken too. Freemasons are pretty innocuous, like the elks and whatnot. The KKK and, apparently, groups like The Pioneer Society are much more sinister, insidious, and active. Heck, here its been shown that they manufactured a scientific study to support their own secretive and anti-humanity ideas.

And yet people are still scared of freemasons? While thats going on?

So you know of the Rahl family. Interesting. we need to talk .

Originally posted by The illuminati
So you know of the Rahl family. Interesting. we need to talk .

I am guessing you mean the characters in the series of books, from which I took my screen name. Well, since they are not real and I don't live in a book...I don't actually know them.

I'm not quite sure what that has to do wit this topic either.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The freemasons have secret membership and secret rituals, but no one's ever demonstrated that they have a hidden agenda that they try to keep secret, and their meeting places are plainly visible, and they even allow outsiders to attend parts of their meetings.

Freemasonry does not have "secret membership", nor are the Rituals secret (nor have they been, there are several books that reveal the Ritual that are quite old). There are several websites that provide all of this information, along with the means of recognition... All has been revealed save one, that which cannot be duplicated unless Initiated, Passed, and Raised... The Mason's heart (I know this sounds silly, perhaps even cultish, but true...You can just tell), even if the Words fail him a Mason may still be recognized, I've had elderly patients with dementia, Alzheimer's, and it still comes through the fog of lost comprehension (theirs, not mine, that’s a different story ). That ought to be enough for someone of malicious intent to start a thread, and imply a host of new "Masonic Transgressions". Have fun.

Its funny to me how the KKK can call them selves christian (well on their official website posted on page one of this thread) and try to effectively use christianity as a front for their thoughts and views. I'd like to know where in the bible God said that black people and white people shouldn't get married and that caucasians are the superior race . . .sickening that they must do these things in the name of religion.

By the way . .didn't read all the posts; If I'm being redundant I apologize.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Freemasonry does not have "secret membership", nor are the Rituals secret (nor have they been, there are several books that reveal the Ritual that are quite old).

But still, I cannot go to amazon.com and purchase an 'official' (ignoring that there is no authority to deem a particular ritual official, but I think my jist is clear) 'Handbook of Masonic Rituals' and a particular chapter/lodge wouldn't normally publish the minutes off all their meetings or videos of their rituals. And while members may state 'I am a mason' and some public figures are known to be masons (ie washington etc etc), the lodges don't publish membership lists or wouldn't give them to someone who asked no? I mean, the Freemasons aren't a
'secret', everyone knows that they exist ( at least peolpe who care to know), but the lodges don't confirm these sorts of things no? Infact, isn't that part of the 'meaning' of the rituals and whatnot, that there is secrecy, a certain 'in'-ness too it? Afterall, initiation would be meaningless if it were in theory completely open to the public,even if in practicallity anyone who researched it could find out some of the symbolism and 'gnosis'. Or am I mistaken?

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Freemasonry does not have "secret membership", nor are the Rituals secret (nor have they been, there are several books that reveal the Ritual that are quite old).

But still, I cannot go to amazon.com and purchase an 'official' (ignoring that there is no authority to deem a particular ritual official, but I think my jist is clear) 'Handbook of Masonic Rituals' and a particular chapter/lodge wouldn't normally publish the minutes off all their meetings or videos of their rituals.

I am confused. Do you think we SHOULD? Do you really think that non members have any right to even ask what we do, how we spend our money, who the members are, what the "real" ritual is, how we recognize each other, etc? Just asking, since the clear implication in your post is that you should be able to have at these things... then perhaps I misunderstood.

And while members may state 'I am a mason' and some public figures are known to be masons (ie washington etc etc), the lodges don't publish membership lists or wouldn't give them to someone who asked no? I mean, the Freemasons aren't a 'secret', everyone knows that they exist ( at least peolpe who care to know), but the lodges don't confirm these sorts of things no?

For the most part, no. A lodge may confirm that a man is NOT a mason, but in general, will not confirm that a man IS a mason. Should they?

In fact, isn't that part of the 'meaning' of the rituals and whatnot, that there is secrecy, a certain 'in'-ness too it?

No. that is not implied, stated, or really, felt by any mason that I know.

After all, initiation would be meaningless if it were in theory completely open to the public, even if in practicallity anyone who researched it could find out some of the symbolism and 'gnosis'. Or am I mistaken?

No, you are mistaken. In part, the ritual creates a comaraderie, a cohesiveness, a sense of belonging, it teaches, it unites, it binds... the fact is, you can read the ritual until you are blue in the face and your eyes start to water, but until you have become a part of the group, in your heart, not just by standing in a place and mouthing some words, you will NEVER understand what it is to be a mason.

The gnosis, the light, the education, the secrets of a mason are, to quote a part of the ritual stored in the repository of the faithful breast, and cannot be communicated, truly, solely by words or solely by reading, but by experience.

Originally posted by theron dunn
No, you are mistaken. In part, the ritual creates a comaraderie, a cohesiveness, a sense of belonging, it teaches, it unites, it binds... the fact is, you can read the ritual until you are blue in the face and your eyes start to water, but until you have become a part of the group, in your heart, not just by standing in a place and mouthing some words, you will NEVER understand what it is to be a mason.

The gnosis, the light, the education, the secrets of a mason are, to quote a part of the ritual stored in the repository of the faithful breast, and cannot be communicated, truly, solely by words or solely by reading, but by experience.

As much as this may be a point of contention, this is in fact the "bottom line", so to speak...

Originally posted by theron dunn
I am confused. Do you think we SHOULD?

I'm not particularly concerned either way and I don't think there is any reason to compell the masons to do so. No, I don't think that they should.

Do you really think that non members have any right to even ask

To ask? Of course. But its not anyone elses business what the masons or any other group does anyway, and there is certainly no right to be informed about this.

asking, since the clear implication in your post is that you should be able to have at these things

I can be pretty hard to understand at times, no I am not trying to imply that there is anything 'wrong' or even suspicious about this sort of stuff.

. that[the secret/initiated aspect] is not implied, stated, or really, felt by any mason that I know.

Really? I don't understand, then why maintain any secrecy? If you don't mind my asking?

After all, initiation would be meaningless if it were in theory completely open to the public, even if in practicallity anyone who researched it could find out some of the symbolism and 'gnosis'. Or am I mistaken?

No, you are mistaken. In part, the ritual creates a comaraderie, a cohesiveness, a sense of belonging, it teaches, it unites, it binds... the fact is, you can read the ritual until you are blue in the face and your eyes start to water, but until you have become a part of the group, in your heart, not just by standing in a place and mouthing some words, you will NEVER understand what it is to be a mason.

The gnosis, the light, the education, the secrets of a mason are, to quote a part of the ritual stored in the repository of the faithful breast, and cannot be communicated, truly, solely by words or solely by reading, but by experience.

Interesting. And the secret aspect plays no roll in this? Seems like it should. Or does an initiate know the entire ritual before if occurs? I know you already said it doesn't, but, then, whats the rational for not making it public? I mean, of course there is no impetus on the masons to do this, but, for example, the Boy Scouts have all their 'rituals' open to the public, and most religions also make these things public. Why make it secret if there is no value to it?

Having said that, there is 'secrecy' that is sinister, like that of the KKK, and there is secrecy that is, well, generally privacy and 'what business of it is yours anyway' or 'I'm going to be secretive to make the point that I shouldn't have to be public anyways' type, which i guess is that of freemasonry. I had thought that there was more to it tho than that tho.

[edit on 13-10-2004 by Nygdan]

[edit on 14-10-2004 by Nygdan]

originally Posted by Nygdan

Originally Posted by Theron Dunn...that[the secret/initiated aspect] is not implied, stated, or really, felt by any mason that I know.

Really? I don't understand, then why maintain any secrecy? If you don't mind my asking?

Not at all. IN MY OPINION, part of the reason for the secrecy is historical, and part is to teach a lesson. Historical in that it is a tradition, from time immemorial, a lesson in that keeping the secret(s) teaches a man to keep his word, to the death if necessary, in ALL aspects of his life. Honor is important, even IF society seems to have forgotten that it is more than a word...

The secrets of a master mason, in a real sense, cannot be conveyed by words, though the lessons in part can be. You can describe light to a man blind from birth, until he has a complete and thorough understanding of radiation and behavior of light, but you can never convey to him the beauty of a blooming rose, a rainbow, or a sunset. In many ways, it is the same with masonry.

originally Posted by Nygdan
After all, initiation would be meaningless if it were in theory completely open to the public, even if in practicallity anyone who researched it could find out some of the symbolism and 'gnosis'. Or am I mistaken?

In my opinion, you are mistaken, because 100% of what masonry teaches IS available publically, yet many do not seem to know it.

originally Posted by Theron Dunn
The gnosis, the light, the education, the secrets of a mason are, to quote a part of the ritual stored in the repository of the faithful breast, and cannot be communicated, truly, solely by words or solely by reading, but by experience.

originally Posted by Nygdan
Interesting. And the secret aspect plays no roll in this? Seems like it should. Or does an initiate know the entire ritual before if occurs? I know you already said it doesn't, but, then, whats the rational for not making it public? I mean, of course there is no impetus on the masons to do this, but, for example, the Boy Scouts have all their 'rituals' open to the public, and most religions also make these things public. Why make it secret if there is no value to it?

The secrecy in this, I believe, serves to reinforce the lessons, to draw the candidates attention to it, to cause him to contemplate it and think about what he is being taught. The candidate does not know the ritual before he receives it, and that in part serves to focus his attention on what is being taught. In my opinion.

originally Posted by Nygdan
Having said that, there is 'secrecy' that is sinister, like that of the KKK, and there is secrecy that is, well, generally privacy and 'what business of it is yours anyway' or 'I'm going to be secretive to make the point that I shouldn't have to be public anyways' type, which i guess is that of freemasonry. I had thought that there was more to it tho than that tho.

there is, as I have noted above. Much of the secrets of freemasonry cannot be read or learned through hearing. they are taught to the heart... and as we say in the ritual, a man is FIRST made a mason in his heart, and thereafter in a lodge...

the secrecy is, again, in my opinion, to reinforce what the candidate and the mason has received AND CONTINUES TO RECEIVE in a lodge of master masons.

Back to the subject... the KKK isnt a secret society. As long as they are a white protestant, any goon can become a member of the KKK. That is hardly a strict, secretive admitance policy!
The extent of the KKK's power is their ability to gather a crowd of around 100 uneducated trailer park residents and have them dress up in white robes and scream "'n-word'" for a few hours. Wow. I'm scared.
As I said before, compared to groups like the Aryan Nation and Nation of Islam, the KKK are a bunch of gimps.

Originally posted by apw100
Back to the subject... the KKK isnt a secret society.

Well, I don't mean to compare in anyway but, by that definition...the Free Masons are not "secret" either.

But the KKK does have "secret" rituals and really fill the definition of what people put in this forum.

Want to control society (at least have a "white" zone or some crap like that)
Wear hoods to hide their identity
Have rituals
Burn crosses (is that not devil worship somehow?)
etc, etc...

My point is, if you want to chase down an "evil" society, there it is in spades.

yeah i had thought I fixed the attributions when I first edited the post, fixed it now.

Hope you have a credit card handy.

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Er, prolly nephew in this case.

Thanks to you and Poster Theron Dunn too. I had really thought that the various lodges try to keep these things secret. *scratches head and wanders off

Imagine if a black person read those blogs..what would he call you? Intelligent or a Racist? Because That's What You Are..How Would You Feel If People Came Into your home, seperated you from your family, took you away from your country, constantly whipping you until your back is cut completley open, being forced to work with no mercy, then finally, you get free!! YAY!! But We Segregate Them..Few Hard Years Later..We Put Them In Progects..Things That We Wouldn't Live In Because We Are Perfect!! They Get Run Down, Poverty Becomes The Biggest Threat To Their Community..Because Rich White Guys Want Their Money To Be Better Than Them..Now We Hide Our Racism..Instead Of Wearing Racism On Our Sleeves We Wear Stereotyping..Maybe We Should FORGIVE THEM !!! EVER THINK OF THAT?!?!? OF COURSE NOT! I am 13. I Was Raised By Black Culture. Food, Music, Traditons, Everything. Whenever Someone Says Something Just Like What Youi Small- Penis Assholes Have Been Doing It Hurts Me As Much As It Would Hurt A Black Person. And I Have Been I Victim To Poverty. You Should Consider It A Privelage To Live In A Sub Urb. Assholes.