Obamacare will force employers to only hire part time

So many people blaming employers. Put the blame on the consumer always out for the best deal as well. Or if the consumer is actually willing to pay a premium for whatever reason (Apple customers come to mind), blame the investors who enjoy out of this world returns on their investment, not caring how they came to be.

Bottom line is, the bottom of society is either regulated by a legal framework, or it is regulated by the greed of the employer AND consumer. Of course all countries would need to have a similar legal framework.

EDIT: Not to mention that a buisness model can be utilized only for so long till it is adopted by the competition. You find ways to cut costs, the competition finds way to cut costs by hiring part times as well, less money to go around for employees who in turn are customers with less money to go around. If you are in the buisness of providing entertainment, you will find out that they will have to pay their rent first and if they can save a buck or 2 they will get their entertainment for free online. Everybody is trying to save on them, why shouldnt they try to cut corners where they can?

Originally posted by Flatfish


Tell me this, do you apply your moral code universally or does it just apply to you and your family? Does your family have medical insurance paid for with proceeds from your business? When one of your employees is unable to show up for work due to the fact that they are sitting in an hospital emergency room waiting to get treatment for their un-insured family member, (which by your own moral standards, they value more than their friends and/or work) do you tell them; "that's OK, just take care of your family and return to work when you can?" I doubt it! Or how about when he/she misses work to stay home with a sick child for which they cannot afford childcare? I doubt it!

I expect everyone to look out for their family first. If one of my employees has a sick kid, I tell them to stay home and take care of their kid. A distracted and exhausted employee is not a productive employee.

Employers like yourself somehow believe that your employees should be content devoting their labors to make your life better while totally disregarding the needs of their own.

The problem with making stupid generalizations is the person doing so usually ends up looking like a brain dead jackass. You just proved that. I never said the people I employ should disregard the needs of their own in order to come work for me. In fact, the opposite is true.

Your business model professes that the needs of one family can only be met by the collective of the labor of at least five people, yet you expect your employees to do it on the minimum wage salary of one.

It is now abundantly clear that you have never owned any form of business, contrary to your earlier comment. The needs of my family can be met by the labor of just one individual, me. I didn't start out with employees, I worked on average 50-60 hours a week getting this thing up and running, and have only hired per the needs of the business. In all reality, I could easily handle hiring another 2-3 people, but there is simply no need to spend capital on additional employees when the business is running smoothly now.

Maybe what this country needs is a MAXIMUM wage ratio between business owners/CEOs and their employees in order to keep people like yourself from stealing the fruits of the labors of others.

lol lol lol lol a maximum wage ratio? You clearly have zero knowledge of the function of government,nor the powers delegated to it in the Constitution. Aside from being clearly unconstitutional, such an idea is only put forth by academics who have no real worl experience, and the bottom feeding marxists they churn out en masse to go forth and infect the rest of the planet.

If I didn't know better, I'd think I was in a debate with Mitt Romney himself.

Well you have clearly proven you don't know better on any topic thus far, least of which debating business.

Your statement:

I retired in 2005 at the age of 48, but while I was still in the swing of things, I had over 300 employees under my belt and I had fiduciary responsibility and liability over the investment and administration of employee benefit funds in excess of $500,000,000 dollars.

Is not only clearly false (given your comments and lack of general businesses acumen), but simply laughable.

It helps if you at least have knowledge or experience with a topic before you choose to debate it. No matter what your fellow comrades tell you, the ideas you put forth are simply epic failures.

Much like the rest of your life

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd
I never said the people I employ should disregard the needs of their own in order to come work for me. In fact, the opposite is true.

You don't have to say it, the fact that you don't pay a living wage, proves it!

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd
The needs of my family can be met by the labor of just one individual, me. I didn't start out with employees, I worked on average 50-60 hours a week getting this thing up and running, and have only hired per the needs of the business. In all reality, I could easily handle hiring another 2-3 people, but there is simply no need to spend capital on additional employees when the business is running smoothly now.

OR, you could spend some of that capital on making the lives of your current employees and their families a little bit better by providing healthcare insurance instead of pushing that cost off on the rest of society. I'd just bet that most, if not all, of your employees are either currently receiving some form of social welfare or they could if they just applied for it, just like Walmart employees.

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd
lol lol lol lol a maximum wage ratio? You clearly have zero knowledge of the function of government,nor the powers delegated to it in the Constitution. Aside from being clearly unconstitutional, such an idea is only put forth by academics who have no real worl experience, and the bottom feeding marxists they churn out en masse to go forth and infect the rest of the planet.

I'll just bet you would have sworn that ObamaCare was unconstitutional too. But you'd be wrong.

Every heard of the old saying; "There's more than one way to skin a cat?" All one has to do to limit income at the top is to re-write the "minimum wage" statutes so that the minimum is based on the maximum. For instance, it could be legislated that no employee of any company could be paid less than 1/30th of the highest wage or salary being paid by that company, instead of the 300+ to 1 ratio we're seeing today. You may end up being surprised at just how constitutional that idea may turn out to be.

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd

It helps if you at least have knowledge or experience with a topic before you choose to debate it. No matter what your fellow comrades tell you, the ideas you put forth are simply epic failures.

Much like the rest of your life

Look, whether you like it or not, my statement regarding my business experience does not contain one false word. Furthermore, you haven't heard one word of complaint coming from me about my life. I started working at the age of 16, retired at the age of 48 with full pension and healthcare coverage for myself and my wife of 37 yrs. and I now spend my time enjoying my grandchildren and fishing. My home and the ten acres it sits on, shaded with over 400 oak trees, is paid for. I have two autos, three boats and no credit cards. I have two great kids and two wonderful grandchildren. Actually, my life couldn't be better. I haven't spent one day at work in over 7 yrs. and I would describe it as anything but an epic failure.

How is your business plan working out for you? Will you be able to retire at 48 with full pension and healthcare? Will any of your employees EVER be able to retire after devoting their lives to making yours better?

On another note, I don't know why you hate academics so much but I can tell you that making intelligence your enemy, is one of the biggest faults currently being displayed by the TP/GOP, and you seem to fit right in with that mentality. Greed and Ignorance are what's bringing down our economy as well as our standard of living and it's apparent that you fully embrace that mentality. Or should I say, lack there of. Oh yeah, did I mention that despite all of your ignorant academic accusations, I never got past the 12th grade.

Bottom line is, that you don't have to screw someone else and/or society out of their just rewards in order to be successful and judging by the stars awarded to my comments in this debate, vs. those awarded to yours, this 12th grader is eating your lunch. At least in the eyes of the ATS community and that's saying a lot, seeing how this site has recently been overrun by right wing radicals who choose to display ignorance as opposed to denying it.

Originally posted by Flatfish


You don't have to say it, the fact that you don't pay a living wage, proves it!

Since you seem to think you know what I pay my employees, lets put your theory to the test. Post exactly how much I pay them and the relevant proof to substantiate your claim.

Face it, you are an ignorant troll who has no knowledge of the topic at hand.

OR, you could spend some of that capital on making the lives of your current employees and their families a little bit better by providing healthcare insurance instead of pushing that cost off on the rest of society. I'd just bet that most, if not all, of your employees are either currently receiving some form of social welfare or they could if they just applied for it, just like Walmart employees.

I am not in business to enrich the lives of my employees. That being said, it is without a doubt, impossible for any of my employees to qualify for any form of social assistance since their pay scale wouldn't make them eligible for any form of governmental assistance.

I'll just bet you would have sworn that ObamaCare was unconstitutional too. But you'd be wrong.

Simply because an idealogical court says something is constitutional doesnt exactly make it so. If that were the case, the court wouldn't be divided by political beliefs on most rulings. Think its sheer coincidence the same group of 4 conservative justices and the same group of 4 liberal justices stick together most of the time? The Supreme court hasnt been about the Constitution for the better part of its existence.

Every heard of the old saying; "There's more than one way to skin a cat?" All one has to do to limit income at the top is to re-write the "minimum wage" statutes so that the minimum is based on the maximum. For instance, it could be legislated that no employee of any company could be paid less than 1/30th of the highest wage or salary being paid by that company, instead of the 300+ to 1 ratio we're seeing today. You may end up being surprised at just how constitutional that idea may turn out to be.

Ah so you advocate doing a runaround of the Constitution simply because you dislike how much some people are paid. If you think an idea like that would stand any chance, you are even more ignorant and naive than I originally thought.

I started working at the age of 16, retired at the age of 48 with full pension and healthcare coverage for myself and my wife of 37 yrs.

Married at 11 years old huh.

your business plan working out for you? Will you be able to retire at 48 with full pension and healthcare? Will any of your employees EVER be able to retire after devoting their lives to making yours better?

I have 2 young children. When they become old enough, I can hand my business off to them if they want it. I make a very decent living, and I plan ahead for my retirement. I don't rely on anyone else to do it for me as you seem to think people should do.

I don't know why you hate academics so much but I can tell you that making intelligence your enemy, is one of the biggest faults currently being displayed by the TP/GOP, and you seem to fit right in with that mentality.

lol academics and intelligence are 2 entirely different things. Academics are a useless bunch who spend their entire lives spewing garbage on college campuses because they cannot make it in the place we call the real world. Simply because one is a teacher or a professor doesn't mean they are intelligent human beings. Hell, look at any college campus and you will see a plethora of idiots indoctrinating the next bunch of leftist jackasses under the guise of "education".

nce are what's bringing down our economy as well as our standard of living and it's apparent that you fully embrace that mentality. Or should I say, lack there of.

100% incorrect. Want to know whats bringing down the economy? The insistence of the group of people who want MORE government intervention into every facet of the market, and a corrupt criminal government. Unconstitutional spending, unsustainable debt, an economic policy designed to protect the interests of the banks who own the government.

More government is never a good thing, it has never proven beneficial to the ideas of liberty.

judging by the stars awarded to my comments in this debate

lol you and my 4 year old have something in common. You both feel good when people give you nice shiny gold stars.

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd

Since you seem to think you know what I pay my employees, lets put your theory to the test. Post exactly how much I pay them and the relevant proof to substantiate your claim.

I am not in business to enrich the lives of my employees. That being said, it is without a doubt, impossible for any of my employees to qualify for any form of social assistance since their pay scale wouldn't make them eligible for any form of governmental assistance.

Well let's see, I know you don't pay them $20 or $30 or $40 per hr. because you have already stated that you believe that to be "megabuck wages" that you in no way approve of. Another indication of what you pay your employees can be found in this quote from one of your previous post in this thread;

Businesses have no obligation to provide anything other than minimum wage to their employees.

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd

Simply because an idealogical court says something is constitutional doesnt exactly make it so. If that were the case, the court wouldn't be divided by political beliefs on most rulings. Think its sheer coincidence the same group of 4 conservative justices and the same group of 4 liberal justices stick together most of the time? The Supreme court hasnt been about the Constitution for the better part of its existence.

Yeah, and that surely explains why justice Kennedy sided with the conservatives and Justice Roberts sided with the liberals.

Every heard of the old saying; "There's more than one way to skin a cat?" All one has to do to limit income at the top is to re-write the "minimum wage" statutes so that the minimum is based on the maximum. For instance, it could be legislated that no employee of any company could be paid less than 1/30th of the highest wage or salary being paid by that company, instead of the 300+ to 1 ratio we're seeing today. You may end up being surprised at just how constitutional that idea may turn out to be.

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd
Ah so you advocate doing a runaround of the Constitution simply because you dislike how much some people are paid. If you think an idea like that would stand any chance, you are even more ignorant and naive than I originally thought.

I know that you, in your infinite wisdom, believe it to be ignorant, naive and un-doable but I assure you, it's coming. Working people in this country are sick and tired of being exploited by their employers and it's just a matter of time before they decide to put a stop to it.

I started working at the age of 16, retired at the age of 48 with full pension and healthcare coverage for myself and my wife of 37 yrs.

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd
Married at 11 years old huh.

No, only an idiot would even think that! I married my high school sweetheart in 1975 at the age of 18. We have been married 37 yrs. as of our last anniversary. You really should try growing a brain!

Originally posted by FreeFromTheHerd
lol academics and intelligence are 2 entirely different things. Academics are a useless bunch who spend their entire lives spewing garbage on college campuses because they cannot make it in the place we call the real world. Simply because one is a teacher or a professor doesn't mean they are intelligent human beings. Hell, look at any college campus and you will see a plethora of idiots indoctrinating the next bunch of leftist jackasses under the guise of "education".

Well that explains it! Now I'm beginning to understand how and why the TP/GOP has decided that they are so adamantly against education. Case in point; www.abovetopsecret.com...

Texas GOP opposes teaching critical thinking skills, says creationism is science,

Stupid is as stupid does.

Originally posted by Flatfish


Well let's see, I know you don't pay them $20 or $30 or $40 per hr. because you have already stated that you believe that to be "megabuck wages" that you in no way approve of. Another indication of what you pay your employees can be found in this quote from one of your previous post in this thread;

Yet again proving your ignorance. You have no idea what I pay my employees, yet you think you have it all figured out. I'll even help you:

$40 an hour is $80,000 a year. I never stated that I believe that to be megabucks wages. None of my employees are worth $80,000 to the business. The job isn't difficult, in fact most of the time it's actually pretty fun and doesnt feel like a job at all.

I own an auction company, and I am the auctioneer. My 2 ringmen make $18 an hour plus 2% of our take from each item. My ringmen average 30 hours a week between actual auction time, setting up rooms for consignment auctions, and labeling each item.

My clerk makes $20 an hour plus 1.5%, and she works an average of 25 hours a week.

I have 5 part timers who I sometimes I will use 40 hours a week, and sometimes only 10 depending on business. I pay them a flat $12 an hour for setting up tables, doing the occasional handyman work, etc etc.

Last weekend I did a small auction for 2 small airplanes. I took a ringman with me when in all reality he wasnt needed. His airfare, hotel, and food were all paid for by me, and while my fees were based upon industry standards, I realized a pretty lucrative gain since the planes went for much more than expected. His 2% of the company's take equated to an extra $180 in his pocket for basically doing nothing when he wasnt really needed there.

Your generalizations are indicative of a very shallow minded individual who truly has no clue about the world of business. Your statements have contradicted each other, and at times they have proven you are just flat out lying.

What a sad pathetic little man you are.

reply to post by Grambler


This actually wouldn't be bad if the cost of living would go down so that you do not need to work 40hrs a week. really who wants to work that much a week anyways.

reply to post by FreeFromTheHerd


I hate paying employees and lowball them at every turn .

The question is, why should I pay for the medicare you do not want to provide to your employees? You want to pay only minimum wage and not health benefits, because you think thats what he is worth.. Okay, fine. If he is in a car accident, she has baby or any other such, guess what, he/she is still going to need medical attention. And taxes are supposed to cover that, so you can keep more money to yourself? I think not.

reply to post by FreeFromTheHerd


Maybe I missunderstood your intent when you made the following statements in your posts, if so then it was my mistake;

Since you are so against the idea of cheap labor, you should throw away everything you own that wasnt made by someone making $20 or $30 or $40 an hour, or whatever hourly wage and benefit package you believe is correct.

Grocery stores operate on very very thin margins, and they typically do not pay their employees megabucks.

While I am human and quite capable of making mistakes, I have not lied and I do not appreciate being called a liar by you or anyone else. If this were a face-to face debate, I would most assuredly be all over your face for that, but it's not so I will make this my last post in response to you.

reply to post by Flatfish


At your advanced age and questionable mental capacity, it's a virtual certainty you wouldn't be all over anything or anyone, let alone my face.

Your own comments show you are lying about your alleged "business world experience".

$20 an hour equates to $40,000 which is just under the average median household income.

A grocery store cashier is not worth $20 an hour, which is why grocery stores typically do not pay that much. Wages are determined by the market. If a critical position needs to be filled and no one is applying for that job, the wage offered will increase until there is a supply of labor for that position.

Conversely, if a position is low to no skill, there is no need to pay $20 an hour when you can find plenty of low to no skilled employees who will work that job for $8 an hour.

For someone who allegedly ran a multi million dollar business, you should already know these things.

Just more proof of your untruthfulness

reply to post by FreeFromTheHerd


I know I said that I wouldn't make another reply to you, but I felt compelled to make this closing post in your behalf.

What you do is small fry in the business world by almost anyone's standards while you profess to be some kind of expert in the field, when nothing could be further from the truth.

FYI, I have had weekly payrolls in excess of 1.2 million dollars for months in a row and I don't need some small time employer telling me what I know and don't know about meeting payroll and/or providing benefit packages to those under my employ. Much less continually calling me a liar when you have absolutely nothing on which to base your claims.

Furthermore, I can tell that you have a great deal to learn with respect to underestimating the abilities of other people, both physically and intellectually. If you think for one minute that my age would have any bearing on my ability to defend my honor, you have another think coming.

On the other hand, I noticed in another thread that you couldn't help but insult another poster for being 18yrs. old and inexperienced. I don't have any idea who that 18yr. old person is, but I'd just bet they know a hell of a lot more about life than yourself. At least they don't go around slinging insults at everyone who disagrees with them.

reply to post by Flatfish


a) I dont insult everyone who disagrees with me, just those rare few who continually define the word stupid in post after post. You are a prime example of that type of person.

b) Your own comments have proven you know nothing of the business world, let alone ever actually managed anything other than a lemonade stand.

c) That 18 year old is an admitted socialist (aka the bottom of the barrel in terms of life forms).

d) The fact you make ridiculous generalizations and assumptions shows you do not have the mental capacity to defend anything let alone your "honor" ( seriously, says "defend my honor!!!!" other than ninjas?)

At least we can both be happy that knowing at your advanced age, the odds are you will die long before me. Given that people like you are a cancer on humanity,the world will rejoice when you finally die. I expect it will be from asphyxiation since you have your head crammed so far up your butt there is no hope you will ever fully remove it.

Have a great night