Why Christians can (& should) believe in aliens without losing their faith..

My tentative opinion is that angels and aliens are both manifestations of the same archetype of the collective unconscious. It just depends on which belief system the archetype is projected through. One persons positive projection is another persons negative projection, one persons materialistic/technological ET projection is another persons spiritual/mana angelic projection.

I think there are no aliens separate from us, no angels that don't come from us. They are real and yet they are not. God, the 'archetype of the Self', is in us all at the center of the collective unconscious, and at the same time transcends us all. It is objective and subjective. It projects unconscious material to the conscious mind, and that material takes on symbolic form when it reaches above the threshold of conscious awareness. The symbols vary from age to age, culture to culture, person to person. The form is always secondary and poetic, and so has to be decipered. Not taken literally at face value.

The key to decipering it is to gain a panoramic cross-cultural perspective that is not mired in any one paradigm. Comparative religion, comparative mysticism, comparative mythology is the tripod of this view.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

Isaiah 24:21-23

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

This is a direct reference to the end times scenario. The beast, the false prophet, fallen angels, demons, and of course, the kings of the earth. See Revelations 19:11-21 and others.

Psalms 58:1-2

1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? 2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

The (English Standard Version Anglicised) is questionable here, but then, so is the KJV. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the ESVA though. These verses are referring to those who sit in the seat of Moses. The Judges. The word used for the OT Judges is "Elohim" or Eloheem", meaning gods or lords. The reason for this is clear. Moses was the voice of God to the people, and those who took his place afterward were to be revered similarly.

Isaiah 28:14-15

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

The whole chapter needs to be read in context. This is a judgement on those who thought they were going to escape God's judgement.

Isaiah 57:8-9 KJV

8 Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. 9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Hmmm. Reads a little different in the KJV.

Whoops. Gotta go. Be back later to finish. Continued...

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


the word alien comes from the word elyon which is hebrew for
god
-skyfloating

reply to post by Klassified


Why do you revere the KJV over other versions of the text?

If anything, more recent versions are likely to have rendered the translation with perhaps even more accuracy.

reply to post by igor_ats

God does not lie, it is impossible, but here he has conveniently omitted very important info. Does a divine being who cannot lie starts being deliberately vague and obtuse text from the Old Testament giving us a *nudge nudge wink wink* on such important info. . . that doesn't sound like how God would present such important info let alone not have the foreknowledge that it would cause angst and confusion amongst his followers.

The only bit you got right there, was that God doesn't lie.

God is perfectly entitled to be obscure about topics that might engender harm or confusion. Such as the occult, such as the existence of life elsewhere in the universe. The people to whom the original text was revealed were simply not ready, scientifically, to comprehend the vastness of the cosmos, its structure or its full complement of inhabitants.

Hence, because God does not present the info, people (generally) do not get confused, and take the message as read, which is that God seeks people who will follow his precepts and commands, that shun evil and injustice, and so forth. The promise issued to Abraham was not to be fulfilled until Christ was revealed. In the meantime, the Mosaic law was issued as the first covenant, to show the people of Israel (and the world) their true spiritual condition.

Paul states that we were in the 'protective custody' of the Mosaic law (it was a guidebook) until such a time as Christ could be revealed, and we could become children of his inheritance - that inheritance is eternal life, with right standing before God.

If there are mysteries you want to understand, if you want to know more, he advises you to ask him directly. As per the first two quotes I gave.

I would not have told Israel to seek me, if I could not be found

reply to post by Klassified

Lets start with the big one you knew was coming when you posted this. The Devil himself. He is...
The father of lies. John 8:44
The accuser of the brethren. Rev 12:10
Appears as an angel of light 2Cor. 11:14
He plots and schemes against Gods people (wiles) Eph. 6:11
He wants to be worshipped as a God, and set his throne above God's. Is. 14:13
And last but not least, he is the god of this world system, and has a domain. John 12:31 Eph. 6:12

Sorry, I think you've missed the point of the thread. I am perfectly aware of the situation concerning the devil (the adversary). He is NOT relevant to a discussion of whether God has provided information pointing to the existence of extraterrestrial life.

As per one of my OP posts (the third, I think) - I plan to handle the matters of the prince of darkness and the unseen world/ the heavenly realms, in another thread.


Further down your post, you state the following:

Here, your going to be accused of taking verses out of context. It is obvious Paul is speaking of idols. As to this... (as there be gods many, and lords many,). From a doctrinal perspective, there are NO other gods. Period. They may be called gods. But they are no more than idols, men, and fallen angels masquerading.

It is not obvious that Paul is speaking of 'idols made with human hands' or men, or demons - which is what you are getting at. You've neglected the first portion of that quote I used.

For though there are so-called gods both in heaven and earth, gods and lords galore in fact

The term 'heaven' implies the skies and beyond.

The term 'god' implies a sentient being - Christ stated 'Have I not said, ye are gods..?

The term 'lord' implies a being with authority, who has dominion over a certain area...

The use of the term 'lord' in this context would not apply to a piece of wood, or a fallen angel, for they do not have areas of dominion, with the exception of Satan who is god of this world. Bearing that in mind for a second (that Satan is the 'god' of this world) - I think it is fairly clear to draw the conclusion that there are 'gods/ lords' in charge of other worlds - gods and lords galore, in fact, in charge of worlds galore...

As CS Lewis espoused in "Out of the Silent Planet''. And he was a much better writer, and apologist, than I am.



And again, I question the translations you have used in backing up your standpoint. There are many times in previous translations where the actual word (eg - gods) was substituted with an anthropomorphized word, 'rulers'.

I am a Christian Mystic and i approve this message.

I think just like on earth we have good people and evil people, so too in the universe, good aliens & bad aliens.

It doesnt change my belief system at all, as i am malleable based on research, new findings, and direct experiences. If aliens came and presented their own religion, i would study it and see how it fits w Christ

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by Klassified

 

Why do you revere the KJV over other versions of the text?

If anything, more recent versions are likely to have rendered the translation with perhaps even more accuracy.

Revere is the wrong word. But to answer your question.

1. From my own studies over many years, I consider the KJV, and its underlying "Majority Text" to be one of the best translations we have in English. Some of the newer translations use manuscripts that are said to be older, and more accurate, but vary significantly from the majority.
2. If you hunt through enough translations, your bound to find one that suits your fancy, and will say what you want it to say. A wiser course, would be to take all those translations, and find the common denominators in each referring to a given passage. Having done this many times, I again find the KJV often superior, even if its english is archaic and antiquated. Although admittedly, the KJV has its own set of problems.
3. Most Christian doctrine is based on the reading of scriptures in the KJV. That's not saying it's right, it just is.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

Sorry, I think you've missed the point of the thread. I am perfectly aware of the situation concerning the devil (the adversary). He is NOT relevant to a discussion of whether God has provided information pointing to the existence of extraterrestrial life.

Sorry, but I think most Christians are going to disagree with you on that. Because you are basing your hypothesis on your interpretation of scripture. To them, he is not only relevant, considering his prominence and mission from the beginning, but integral to any discussion on this issue.

It is not obvious that Paul is speaking of 'idols made with human hands' or men, or demons - which is what you are getting at. You've neglected the first portion of that quote I used.

For though there are so-called gods both in heaven and earth, gods and lords galore in fact

On the contrary, I did address it.
1Corinthians 8:4-7 (KJV)

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

The term 'heaven' implies the skies and beyond.
The term 'god' implies a sentient being - Christ stated 'Have I not said, ye are gods..?
The term 'lord' implies a being with authority, who has dominion over a certain area...
The use of the term 'lord' in this context would not apply to a piece of wood, or a fallen angel, for they do not have areas of dominion, with the exception of Satan who is god of this world. Bearing that in mind for a second (that Satan is the 'god' of this world) - I think it is fairly clear to draw the conclusion that there are 'gods/ lords' in charge of other worlds - gods and lords galore, in fact, in charge of worlds galore...

Got any other scripture for that? Because that's what any fundamentalist is going to ask you. It's a completely unfounded conclusion from their perspective.
Psalms 96:5

For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The above scriptures exemplify mainstream doctrine concerning the idea of gods in the bible.

And again, I question the translations you have used in backing up your standpoint. There are many times in previous translations where the actual word (eg - gods) was substituted with an anthropomorphized word, 'rulers'.

Yes. And there was a good reason for it. Because the context of the scriptures around it defined the words meaning in context to what was being said.
Psalms 82:6 and whole chapter.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

This chapter is specific to the Judges of Israel, and any others who sat in the seat of Moses. The word is Elohim or Eloheem. But the context dictates the use of "gods" here. In other scriptures the "judges" is the same "Eloheem". But it is translated Judges because the context dictates it.


Now, here's what I personally think. I think there are many possible references in the bible to just what you have hypothesized. And much that ties into it from other cultures writings and beliefs of the time. But I'm not a Christian any longer. I'm open to that. But there are fundamentalists who will take great issue with the whole spiel. And since you titled this thread: "Why Christians can (& should) believe in aliens without losing their faith"

I was just trying to give you a fundamentalist perspective on your theory. To them, it's a black and white issue.

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment


It is not obvious that Paul is speaking of 'idols made with human hands' or men, or demons - which is what you are getting at.  You've neglected the first portion of that quote I used.

For though there are so-called gods both in heaven and earth, gods and lords galore in fact

Verse 4 states: "4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. "

Paul stated categorically that there are no other 'gods' than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So how do you draw the conclusion that his very next statements would then go on to contradict this statement? He is stating that, in fact, there are many labelled as "lords and gods" in the world, but that they aren't because there is only One True God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The use of the term 'lord' in this context would not apply to a piece of wood, or a fallen angel, for they do not have areas of dominion, with the exception of Satan who is god of this world.  Bearing that in mind for a second (that Satan is the 'god' of this world) - I think it is fairly clear to draw the conclusion that there are 'gods/ lords' in charge of other worlds - gods and lords galore, in fact, in charge of worlds galore...

And now you draw the conclusion that there are gods and lords galore that are in charge of "OTHER WORLDS"? Where does that come from in these passages? It's not there. it is a conclusion that you've drawn which is found nowhere in scripture.

Can I ask, WHY do you want other Christians to accept extraterrestrials as a reality? I question this desire given the grave consequences to the millions already believing the constant indoctrination coming from both the media and false religions - that is that they are our real creators and upcoming world saviours. You know this, so I question why you want fellow Christians to believe in their existence. You would also know that it is Our God who sends the strong delusion in order for "the lie" to be believed. You can therefore see why millions of descendants of Christians are the ones believing in aliens. They never learned to love truth, and therefore reject Him.

If you are christian you believe in demons/angels. demons and angels like us are creations of God. Both demons and angels whether they are the same thing or not just different affiliation, are intelligent life... that live along side us and are different considering their abilities compared to Humans.......

SO without knowing it Christians do believe in ET life but do not wish to acknowledge it and un religious people believe in angels and demons too but don't acknowledge it...... both sides are too pig headed to realize it.

Looking at a couple of the last few replies, I can't say I'm surprised at some of the vitriol.

Anyway, I'll come back to this later. In my defence, I'm not seeking to turn anyone away from Christ, and in almost every sense I would be considered a fundamentalist Christian. I pray in the Spirit, receive words of knowledge, have had visions and dreams from the Lord, and I evangelise twice weekly. In everything I do I try to draw close to God, and I encourage the people around me as often as possible to continue in the faith and to trust God for His revelation.

You could always reply to my vitriol-free post.

Most every Christian I know believes they exist and none of them have ever felt it contradicts what they believe...

I think when people say that the belief in aliens is not compatible with any religion is just parroting the disinfo that has been put forth for so long from people who have no faith in anything..(which would be most of TPTB)

This has been put forth often and repeatedly.. I have heard it said on the news, in movies, in the newspapers, in books, fiction, non fiction, in every type of media over the last few decades.. But a lot more now than ever before.. Mostly I hear it from people who don't even believe in God, or people who do not understand or know much about true Christian views.

When people take the initiative to claim it does contradict Christian teachings, they are actually just attacking Christianity, which was their motive all along.

reply to post by alienreality


you hit the nail on the head

S&F for a very well thought out post with some very interesting ideas that i will definitely give some thought to.

reply to post by alienreality

When people take the initiative to claim it does contradict Christian teachings, they are actually just attacking Christianity, which was their motive all along.

Then what you are really saying, is a good many fundamentalists are attacking their own faith.

I personally think you are right. A good many Christians have made room for the idea, and don't feel so closed off to it anymore.

And the OP is right in saying those who are still closed to the idea "should" consider it. But the truth is, we have fundamentalists right here at ATS who see aliens as synonymous with demons and Extra Dimensionals...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
Looking at a couple of the last few replies, I can't say I'm surprised at some of the vitriol.

Anyway, I'll come back to this later. In my defence, I'm not seeking to turn anyone away from Christ, and in almost every sense I would be considered a fundamentalist Christian. I pray in the Spirit, receive words of knowledge, have had visions and dreams from the Lord, and I evangelise twice weekly. In everything I do I try to draw close to God, and I encourage the people around me as often as possible to continue in the faith and to trust God for His revelation.

OP. My apologies if I offended you. It was most certainly not my intention to do so. Because of your thread title, I was only trying to bring the flip side of the coin into the picture. I have had many a go round with fundamentalists who refused to accept the idea that ET could exist, and that many verses in scripture may point to that very possibility. The arguments I got were similar to the very arguments I threw at you. Some of these folks have tunnel vision, and can only repeat what they've been taught. All aliens are demons.

As a Christian I dont see any reason not to believe that life in other pats of the universe are hanging around. I am not sure I understand why some Christians think that there is a reason to doubt it. But that's just my opinion.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

5 For though there are so-called gods both in heaven and earth, gods and lords galore in fact, 6 to us there is only one God

" Though there are so-called Gods ". So called by people who were fooled into thinking they were gods and so were called. Like anything else you must be very careful how you read the Bible. The fact is there is only one God.
" Our Father in Heaven ". This is what scripture is all to clear about, thru and thru.

I have to play hard nose here and disagree.