Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court

There is no reason why circumcision must be done a birth.

If there is a religious reason to do it, it could be done when the person is old enough to make the decision themselves. Since the men who originally did it were men, they had the option to do so. There after teens could choose to do it.

Just because some groups find more compliance if they do it before someone can object doesn't mean that it has to be done there. There is no religious point suggesting it has to be done without consent.


On a separate note, while circumcision does correlate with a drop in HIV rates I would like to invite you to think what this is really saying.

Men are spreading HIV around and don't give a god damn about it. That's what it says. In an option to use a rubber and not kill their partner, or to have a circumcision and maybe be less likely to kill their partner....they are picking to not use a condom and be slightly less likely to kill their partner.

Heartwarming.

Originally posted by SibylofErythrae
There is no reason why circumcision must be done a birth.

If there is a religious reason to do it, it could be done when the person is old enough to make the decision themselves. Since the men who originally did it were men, they had the option to do so. There after teens could choose to do it.

Just because some groups find more compliance if they do it before someone can object doesn't mean that it has to be done there. There is no religious point suggesting it has to be done without consent.

Yes, we ask our children if they like to have all surgical procedure, do we?

Being a parent means you should make decision about your children, and circumcision is much easier at younger age.

I had a friend who did it when he was in his teens, it was his decision, and took him a while to heal after it.

Beign a parent means that you should recognize that your six year old son is probably not going to be having any religious experiences due to the lack of a foreskin. Nor is he likely to be contracting STDS, and the other potential problems are often due to lack of hygiene.

So while I'm delighted at your idea that my parental role is to not respect my children's humanity, I'm also delighted to know that you'd like to fix lack of hygiene with a scalpel.

People have made decisions based on the information they had available. I get it. More information is now available. The primary reason people are doing it is to make their sons like Daddy.

Wait, I pointed to source why circumcision will benefit my children, and you all are talking about new research, but nobody provided any link or sources for those 'new' research.

Any benefit doesn't come from infant circumcision. It just come from circumcision. Which means that letting your children make their own decisions when they get older has no consequences.

Your research is circumstantial, in that it accounts mainly for CIRCUMSTANCES. Better circumstances show up less benefits in this procedure.

You also don't wipe your butt with you left hand anymore, and if you did it doesn't matter because the CIRCUMSTANCES that made such a societal concept necessary are not applicable when you can wash your hands.

I would like you to now prove that there is not residual psycho-sexual trauma from forced unnecessary surgery. Because if there is, then the effect of residual latent psycho-sexual trauma on most boys and men in society would have a FASCINATING impact, don't you think?

Without any proof that supports what you're saying, we are not heading anywhere with this fruitless discussion.

It is already pointed out that Germans do allow medical circumcision, and only are opposed to religious one.

So, what is the problem?

reply to post by RogerT3

sorry bro', when one tear is shed the whole world cries.

. . .

Really? Where's the worldly sympathy for the loss of my parents who had three children (including myself); me just entering legal adulthood and my brothers not even into their teens?

Take that bovine fecal matter and stuff it down your throat.

I don't believe children are the property of their parents. If I witness child abuse, I'm gonna find it hard not to step in.

There's a clear difference between abuse and parental choice.

You're upset about circumcision. A medical procedure. I can take you around to homes where the parents ignore the children, yell/scream at them for no reason, and rule (yes, rule) through pure intimidation alone.

Proper reporting and acting upon such abuse laws would quickly collapse the system designed to house victims of child abuse - that's how many cases there are.

Go picket someplace where there's actually a case of abuse.

Of course, I'm not gonna get in your personal face about the circumcision of your kids, but I can applaud a consensus in a modern, intelligent society to raise the bar a little, and hope that those who still practice ritual surgery on newborns will take a moment and think about it.

I apologize for allowing myself to get distracted momentarily on the merits/demerits of circumcision (ultimately irrelevant to the discussion).

The issue is whether or not a government has the power to outlaw circumcision.

I find it odd that so many members of a conspiracy forum find it to be a wise idea to empower the government to make laws regarding the medical procedures you can or cannot choose to receive or administer to your children.

Whether it's a good decision or not is irrelevant to the fact that it is a choice of both the parent and the doctor to do the surgery (a doctor/surgeon can refuse to do the surgery for non medical reasons).

And you did just get in our face about it.

reply to post by PsykoOps

As I said before, society in whole has the right and the duty to protect defensless children from abusive parents. Cutting their weewee's for their own pleasure or because of old folk tales is by definition abuse.

Except the medical benefits of circumcision are defined. You cannot base laws around the intent of an action - you can only make laws regarding actions - particularly in regulatory instances.

How does the justice system go about determining the intent behind parents' choice to circumcise? "Well, they're Jews... so it must have been a religious choice in defiance of the law!" ...? Or do parents just have to learn the magic words to put down on the paper?

I'm in the military... I've learned how to word just about anything to keep overzealous individuals looking to make rank from being able to pick up on opportunities to narc. Putting down the magic words on the form can justify just about anything.

So yes I do worry about your babies foreskins. You should just as much worry about every babies well being.

I suppose everyone has to have a hobby.

Worry about my kid's foreskin all you want to. He's not obligated to tell you jack about his penis, and I will ensure anyone heckling him about his presence/lack of a foreskin will forever be on a telemarketer's list of interested parties (with a preference for being called at dinner time).

That's provided the United States remains as a legal authority. If we're where I think we will be in 20 years' time - I'll just stake such individuals to an ant hill and let the ants dispose of their male organs (and everything else - but I figure I'll highlight the fact that it will be effective castration via ant party).

In other words - you can worry, but it's none of your business whether or not my kids have a foreskin. It's between me and them - and between them and their partners. If they want to clue you in - that's their prerogative. Anyone butting into that aspect of their lives will be convinced it's a leading cause of generally unhealthy things.

And to be perfectly honest - I'm leaning more toward not having my children circumcised. I don't have a problem with circumcision or the lack thereof. I do have a problem with people making such trivial things an issue.

reply to post by SibylofErythrae

Any benefit doesn't come from infant circumcision. It just come from circumcision. Which means that letting your children make their own decisions when they get older has no consequences.

This is horribly, horribly incorrect.

Circumcision later in life is a far more complicated, risky, and damaging procedure.

www.circinfo.com...

Do not be over eager to have sex until your circumcision has healed, which will normally take up to six weeks.

Healing in infantile circumcision is hardly an issue. The reason the process gained popularity as an infantile surgery is because of the under developed nature of the foreskin during infancy that required less damaging incisions to remove the foreskin.

I would like you to now prove that there is not residual psycho-sexual trauma from forced unnecessary surgery. Because if there is, then the effect of residual latent psycho-sexual trauma on most boys and men in society would have a FASCINATING impact, don't you think?

You don't seem to understand how burden of proof works.

Further - studies have shown "repressed" memories and other such traumatic psychological phantasms to be just that - imaginary constructions that do not exist nor did they ever exist:

ww1.cpa-apc.org:8080...

There's simply no reason to set the "null" state to that in support of latent psycho-sexual trauma.

So... What you need to do is demonstrate that circumcision creates some kind of harm to the individual or society as a whole as to justify creating a law to prevent it.

Good luck with that one.

There is no reason for you to remove body parts from someone against their will simply because you prefer not to wash.

The foreskin is ATTACHED to the meatus until a child is older. This means that your "less developed" foreskin means they are ripping it off the skin of the meatus while removing it.

If you think this isn't painful, I will gladly dig up some videos of the procedure for you to watch. Why do you think that they don't have parents there when they do the procedure?

Enjoy.



I think boys deserve the chance to decide for themselves if they want their body part. Not based on your preferences.

This is something known as respect. I'm not surprised so few recognize it.

Originally posted by Aim64C
Really? Where's the worldly sympathy for the loss of my parents who had three children (including myself); me just entering legal adulthood and my brothers not even into their teens?

Take that bovine fecal matter and stuff it down your throat.

I am sorry for your loss.
My statement was not personal, nor intended to cause anyone hurt or suffering.
Your response indicates you have misunderstood the intended meaning.
It isn't about sympathy, it's about interconnectedness. Essentially, it's off topic, but the statement serves to illustrate my philosophy to the poster I replied to.

There's a clear difference between abuse and parental choice.

...

Go picket someplace where there's actually a case of abuse.

I'm responding to a thread on a public forum. What I do offline in respect to child abuse isn't really relevant is it?
And I really don't get that argument: "hey, why complain about x when y is worse?"

The issue is whether or not a government has the power to outlaw circumcision.

I find it odd that so many members of a conspiracy forum find it to be a wise idea to empower the government to make laws regarding the medical procedures you can or cannot choose to receive or administer to your children.

The German govt have not outlawed a medical procedure, they have outlawed cutting babies for religious, fashion or cosmetic reasons. Anyone is still perfectly free in Germany to go get their penis cut, once they are old enough to self determine that is actually what they want.

I absolutely applaud that and do not fear the loss of my right to 'do what I please to my kids', as I do not believe I have that right, nor are they MY property. I am steward of my kids, and my job is to do the best I know how, given my limited training, experience and knowlege.

In this case, my experience and knowlege is that circumcision is an unnecessary ritual that removes a functional, useful and healthy part of the human anatomy, carried out for the most part by Jews and Muslims as a religious ritual or by Americans as a fashion/conformancy statement (hidden sometimes amongst some very debatable allopathic PR).

Originally posted by SuperFrog
Wait, I pointed to source why circumcision will benefit my children, and you all are talking about new research, but nobody provided any link or sources for those 'new' research.

I'd imagine this one has been done to death earlier in the thread, as was so in the other lengthier thread on the same news item.

I have to go now, but if no-one responded about your webmd article, I'll pull it apart for you tomorrow and present some counter evidence. I suspect it's based on the Sub Saharan Africa stats, and if so, it's hardly relevant to a decision in Germany, where the population isn't 'riddled with Slim' according to the reports you are buying into. I'll also source you the info about diagnosis of Aids in Africa, just don't have time now. bye for now

In this case, my experience and knowlege is that circumcision is an unnecessary ritual that removes a functional, useful and healthy part of the human anatomy, carried out for the most part by Jews and Muslims as a religious ritual or by Americans as a fashion/conformancy statement (hidden sometimes amongst some very debatable allopathic PR).

So even if proven to be helpful for health and hygiene, your knowledge finds it unnecessary.

Useful part of human anatomy? Just like appendix.

You are correct to have your belief, but this is one of the cases, where people because of religious belief will try anything to disapprove what they can't process in their mind.

It is said many times in this topic that clearly there is evidence of benefit.

Let me ask you question - should kids be allowed to have piercing of their ears? That hurts as well, it's done everywhere very early. What do you think?

reply to post by SuperFrog


The "new research" is just their opinion. They seem to have forgotten that this is all a matter of opinion. They jump up on their high horse and spout these proclamations concerning how I (we) am a child abuser and mutilator based on their disagreement with a legal procedure done billions of times to billions of kids with a grand total of 1 in this thread complaining about their circumcision. A few circumcised people have chimed in to say they are happy about it, with 1 complaining. Yet somehow this moral outrage is the pinnacle of their social activism and it makes them feel good to tell others what they do wrong.

Never mind that they aren't perfect themselves. Never mind that they may make choices that others disagree with. They don't want to have a discussion they just want to point fingers and call names in order to feel content with themselves.

I can call names too! I think ya'll must be pedophiles, to think this much about baby penises is unhealthy. Maybe you should be reported to the F.B.I. just in case? Let them sort it out, better to be safe than sorry.

You don't have any idea what kind of parent I am, what I have done for my children or what I do continually. You think it is fun to sit on here and make judgements about people regardless of whether or not they are justified. Like your words mean something other than just making noise. I am 100% comfortable with my choices and know I am not a child abuser, its not that these accusations make me nervous. It just really pisses me off that you have the nerve to say these things when you flat out don't know.

I said it before, some of the biggest hypocrits I have ever encountered. However you will ignore all of this and tell me more about how it is societies job to protect foreskins and you are just doing you part. You don't want to have a discussion, you want a witch hunt.

Originally posted by SibylofErythrae
Beign a parent means that you should recognize that your six year old son is probably not going to be having any religious experiences due to the lack of a foreskin. Nor is he likely to be contracting STDS, and the other potential problems are often due to lack of hygiene.

So while I'm delighted at your idea that my parental role is to not respect my children's humanity, I'm also delighted to know that you'd like to fix lack of hygiene with a scalpel.

People have made decisions based on the information they had available. I get it. More information is now available. The primary reason people are doing it is to make their sons like Daddy.

edit on 11-7-2012 by SibylofErythrae because: (no reason given)

What is happening is that there are people here who have been cheated from being whole and have been mutiliated for what ever reason and now they are trying to prove that they are somewhat special.

With this train of though it you can say that having your teeth removed at age 10 and replaced with fake ones will benefit you. I.e No cavities, no brushing, no food stuck in teeth, no imperfect teeth, heaven forbid people walk around with slightly crooked teeth. How about removing womens breasts at birth? They will have less of a chance for breast cancer.

Bottom line, youre mutilated. Sorry that happened. Some of us had parent(s) who knew better and did not have their sons mutilated at birth and some im sure thought they were doing what was right.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


The real question is what do you gain by constantly telling me I am mutilated? I don't care, why do you? Do you have some fetish or something? This is starting to get really strange. It's like you are trying your hardest to make me feel bad or unworthy. Its really weird.

We get it, you are better than us. I don't think you need to keep repeating it.

**edit** Something I thought of that will probably blow your mind, until this thread I always thought YOU were the weird one. I have never met an uncut guy, I have never been with a woman that was with an uncut guy. Where I am from, you are the odd man out, not me!

I could start calling you snuffaluffagus penis but that wouldn't get us anywhere would it?

Originally posted by sputniksteve
reply to post by Shadow Herder

 

It's like you are trying your hardest to make me feel bad or unworthy. Its really weird.

Not at all just dont think that you and others that have been cut/mutilated are in anyway superior in any aspect.

We get it, you are better than us. I don't think you need to keep repeating it.

No not better just not mutilated. If you were ever to have a son, dont mutilate him, if he wants to have parts of himself cut off later for some religious or fetish reason then let him have his choice.

**edit** Something I thought of that will probably blow your mind, until this thread I always thought YOU were the weird one. I have never met an uncut guy, I have never been with a woman that was with an uncut guy. Where I am from, you are the odd man out, not me!

Women will not tell an cut guy that uncut feels so much better. Mutilated cut people are less than 15-18 percent of the population. They have been but mainly for religious beliefs.

Did you know that some people who preform these circumcisions suck the blood from the cut penis? One child died not to long ago from herpes contracted from this practice.

I could start calling you snuffaluffagus penis but that wouldn't get us anywhere would it?

Call it what you will but I am just how God (or whatever ) created me.

The Jewish and Islamic traditions both see circumcision as a way to distinguish a group from its neighbours The Bible records "uncircumcised" being used as a derogatory reference for opponents[1Sam 17:26] and Jewish victory in battle that culminated in mass post-mortem circumcision, to provide an account of the number of enemy casualties[1Sam 18:27]. Jews were also required to circumcise all household members, including slaves[Gen 17:12-14] – a practice that would later put them into collision with Roman and Christian law .en.wikipedia.org...

Nothing healthy about that, sounds like the mark of the beast to me or as the article states that the practice was promoted by lesser men to mark and distinguish people.


Disgusting.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Oh OK I see I didn't realize I was dealing with a religious nut. OK I see where you are coming from now. You have made your point, I am not as good as you because I am mutilated. You must not be actually reading any of my posts or you would have noticed 3 pages ago that I already circumcised my son, and will do it again if I have another one. This is a point which I have restated over and over again through out my posts. Try reading what is being typed instead of being in a hurry to tell me how I am mutilated, and not as good as snuffaluffagus penis.

dble post