Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court

Just in case anyone is still under the mis-assumption that it's ' just a piece of useless skin ' , circumcision removes the following:

15 sq inches of protective skin covering (which prevents keratinisation (sp?) and loss of sensitivity - think callouses);

the frenular ridge band which is the PRIMARY male erogenous zone;

the natural lubricated gliding action of the penis, ie. the way it is supposed to work;

between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types (part of the child's nervous system);

the highly erogenous frenulum on the underside of the glans (my personal favorite!);

approximately half of the temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath which lies between the outer layer of skin and the corpus cavernosa;

lymphatic vessels - ie. a portion of the babies immune system;

oestrogen receptors that are yet to be understood at this time;

pheromone producing Apocrine Glands of the inner foreskin;

Sebaceous Glands (lubrication);

Langerhans Cells (more immune system);

several feet of blood vessels;

sometimes the dorsal nerve (effectively rendering the penis 'numb';

emotional bonding with the mother during the most important developmental stage of an infant's life is interrupted by the procedure, the pain and/or the anasthesia.

Add to this the complications that result in a great many deaths, trans gender operations or just plain loss of the penis!

Originally posted by Aim64CI've given you the medical reasons to circumcise. There are considerable immediate factors (risks to infants - such as bladder infections and other complications that are higher among infants with foreskins), and further complications that can arise later (phemosis, cancer, increased viral communicability, hygiene issues in remote locations or adverse conditions, etc).

Pre-emptive routine surgery of a natural, healthy and fully functional organ is just plain ridiculous.
You quote some very questionable medical reasons, many of which were challenged quite successfully in the other thread on this news item, that have plenty of non-invasive solutions. Hey, soap and water and condoms work quite well!

I'm sure many have used the analogy, but I'll say it anyway: Any part of the body can become infected. Many parts of the body are not necessary for survival. Why stop at the foreskin. Let's remove all the non-essential bits when kids are born, just in case they might get an infection later.

Don't worry, in a few generations of media priming, girls will think boys who have lips and nipples and 10 fingers and 10 toes with toenails are gross too - ewwww!

reply to post by RogerT3

Pre-emptive routine surgery of a natural, healthy and fully functional organ is just plain ridiculous.

In your horribly short-sighted and tunnel-focused opinion.

You quote some very questionable medical reasons, many of which were challenged quite successfully in the other thread on this news item, that have plenty of non-invasive solutions. Hey, soap and water and condoms work quite well!

If you would pay attention, you'd notice that condoms aren't all that spectacular at protecting against disease (simply not doing it with questionable individuals is a much better alternative). And the hygiene issue is explained.

I'm sure many have used the analogy, but I'll say it anyway: Any part of the body can become infected. Many parts of the body are not necessary for survival. Why stop at the foreskin. Let's remove all the non-essential bits when kids are born, just in case they might get an infection later.

Except the foreskin doesn't serve a function in the lives of modern humans.

The foreskin had two evolutionary purposes. It did serve as a minor protector for early humans (although the foreskin is likely the current status of a evolutionary tendency away from a protective sheath - as most other mammals have thicker, proper sheaths to adequately protect against abrasion) - and to allow for more forceful entry into the vagina (rape).

Subjective sensitivity issues aside.

Don't worry, in a few generations of media priming, girls will think boys who have lips and nipples and 10 fingers and 10 toes with toenails are gross too - ewwww!

I really couldn't care less what a girl thinks is attractive. If she doesn't find me attractive then it's not worth getting emotional over it.

I just find it interesting how people like to turn it into some massive issue where we blame people for choices their parents made. "Oh yeah! You say that because you don't have a foreskin!"

I don't care if you're circumcised or not. I don't care if you have your kids circumcised or not. What I do find horribly ironic is that you push for a "non barbaric" society that takes up affirmative discriminatory action against individuals based upon the status of their foreskin.

Really?

And you wonder why I look at this planet and toss my hands up in frustration: "Dust off and nuke the site from orbit! It's the only way to be safe."

You think you're cool because of where you're going... but you aren't cool because of what you're doing.

Since we're on the topic of genital hygiene (the irony is that the act and device in question actually disrupts the natural bacterial environment and can lead to infections and irritation)....

Originally posted by Aim64C


Except the foreskin doesn't serve a function in the lives of modern humans.

In your horribly short-sighted and tunnel-focused opinion?

Let me tell you categorically from a guy who does have a foreskin, that it certainly DOES serve several functions in my life.

Perhaps I'm not a modern human

What I do find horribly ironic is that you push for a "non barbaric" society that takes up affirmative discriminatory action against individuals based upon the status of their foreskin.

Not sure where you get that from?

I'm against surgically removing pieces of the organs of new born babies for religious, cosmetic or fashion reasons. I'm against the practice of putting a baby under risky anasthesia for cosmetic surgery or even worse, inflicting severe pain on a baby whilst someone who is not the mother physically restrains the little guy under bright lights. I believe that we can do better than that.

If that's horribly ironic to you then so be it.

reply to post by RogerT3


Great, don't circumcise your kid then. But for God sakes quit telling others what they should and shouldn't do.

Imagine if I was like "you all" and tried to force you to circumcise your child, can you imagine the anger you would feel?

reply to post by PsykoOps


I will quit worrying about you worrying about baby penises when you stop worrying about my babies penis. Why can't you worry about your own babies penis and leave mine alone? I mean seriously, all jokes aside, why do you feel the need to interject your beliefs and desires on me and my children?

I understand why you guys feel the way you feel, I don't agree with it but I understand it. I am not trying to tell anyone else how they live, I don't care what you do to your children. Why can't you be the same way? Why all of the hypocrisy? Is it strictly because of people doing it for religious purposes? Does it change when I tell you I don't believe in God and I have my child circumcised?

We are beyond the issue of being cut now, I am not going to change my mind no matter what you call me or accuse me of. I just want to know why you feel it is your job to direct other peoples lives and practices? What happened to you that you think that is OK to do? Please don't come back employing more logical fallacies as that does you no good.

Originally posted by sputniksteve
I don't care what you do to your children. Why can't you be the same way?

sorry bro', when one tear is shed the whole world cries.

I don't believe children are the property of their parents. If I witness child abuse, I'm gonna find it hard not to step in.

Of course, I'm not gonna get in your personal face about the circumcision of your kids, but I can applaud a consensus in a modern, intelligent society to raise the bar a little, and hope that those who still practice ritual surgery on newborns will take a moment and think about it.

Originally posted by RogerT3

Originally posted by sputniksteve
I don't care what you do to your children. Why can't you be the same way?

sorry bro', when one tear is shed the whole world cries.

I don't believe children are the property of their parents. If I witness child abuse, I'm gonna find it hard not to step in.

Of course, I'm not gonna get in your personal face about the circumcision of your kids, but I can applaud a consensus in a modern, intelligent society to raise the bar a little, and hope that those who still practice ritual surgery on newborns will take a moment and think about it.

edit on 10-7-2012 by RogerT3 because: (no reason given)

I see, you wouldn't bother to say something in person about my choice to circumcise my child but you are happy to do it on a forum. I can't blame you for that I guess. I just wish ya'll would be less hostile and quite trying to make me out as a bad parent that mutilated his child.

To state again: I am circumcised and happy about it, I would be upset with my parents if I wasn't. Everyone I know is circumcised and every woman I have been with in my life was grossed out by uncut men if they had even seen one before. I AM "MUTILATED" AND HAPPY ABOUT IT.

I will say it again, it worries me that ya'll worry so much about other peoples penises. That isn't going to stop until you stop worrying about other peoples penises. You are welcome to share your opinion, just as I have but you are not free to dictate what others do in practice.

Penis warriors, commence bashing!

reply to post by sputniksteve


As I said before, society in whole has the right and the duty to protect defensless children from abusive parents. Cutting their weewee's for their own pleasure or because of old folk tales is by definition abuse.
So yes I do worry about your babies foreskins. You should just as much worry about every babies well being.

I wonder how many here would object to me holding them down and removing their smallest toe?

It is a useless feature. Does nothing but open the door to a myriad of foot issues. Best if we remove it now.

What? No! I have no right to make a decision concerning your body you say...

Funny that, something you hold so dear, yet never afforded your own flesh and blood. The right to self determination.

Shameful really.

reply to post by PsykoOps


I can see this is going nowhere. Keep up the good work penis warriors! Maybe someday you will have the power to control every penis on the planet!

Yes this is how ridiculous you sound to me.

Well it's not exactly control. Protection is the word you were looking for.
Also I'm happy that you find child abuse so amusing to discuss. Everyone is so uptight about it.

Nice to hear about this, its a long time coming. Hopefully we will this trending in other parts of the world.

I miss the rest of my anatomy, and it pizzes me off it was clipped off without my consent!!

reply to post by PsykoOps


Semantics getting in the way again. I am going to bow out now, good luck with your crusade ya'll. Keep those penises controlled, I mean protected!

Maybe you have children already, maybe you don't; when/if you do you might take offense when people level accusations and labels at you for making decisions about your child. Maybe you will be all too happy to leave it to the government to decide for you. Either way I bet you won't let people on forums make those decisions.

By the way I think you guys take yourselves and your ideas a little too seriously. If your goal really was to change peoples minds you won't do it with the pretentious, accusatory, and libelous statements made in this thread. All you will do is continue to alienate yourselves from the rest of us.

I hope to god none of you ever make any parenting decisions that others disagree with. I guess things would be different if it was you being called a child abuser or mutilator right?

I live in a civilized country. As a society if I'm abusing my children they absolutely "decide for me". I've said it before and I say it again, just because children are your own does not give you any special rights of abuse. Just look at the child abusers in jail. None of them got away with just cause the children were their own.

Originally posted by sputniksteve
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

I can see this is going nowhere. Keep up the good work penis warriors! Maybe someday you will have the power to control every penis on the planet!

Yes this is how ridiculous you sound to me.

Steve, calm down bro'
Such a difficult subject to discuss for cut men who also allowed their son(s) to be cut.
You're not a bad parent for doing what you considered (and still consider) to be the best option for your son(s).

Look, any circ advocate can still pass along the mystique of a 'high and tight' to their descendants, just allow them to self educate on the subject and make the decision for themselves at or after the age of consent. That would be my idea of good parenting, to provide both sides of the argument, then let them make up their own mind when they are old enough.

I'm vocal in a public forum so that readers who are unaware of what they are doing have the chance to self educate. I'm not personally attacking you, I'm personally attacking the ritual surgery on newborns.

Please, try for a second to see it from the other side - it will sting for sure, but you do have the chance to educate your sons and stop the cutting at his generation. Really, girls in America will get used to the hoodies once the media changes direction and stops demonizing foreskins. then they are going to realise what they've been missing, and it isn't smegma

Now anyone suggesting hypocrisy in my request to look at both sides, my disclosure is I considered quite seriously getting cut myself at the age of 30 something, for medical reasons. I thought at the time it was just a bit of skin, but when I bothered to check out the facts, I realised just what I'd be giving away. I even experienced life as a cut man for a week or so by clever use of sticky tape so although I have no idea what it would be like to spend a lifetime cut, I am in a position to personally know more about both sides than the majority.

BTW, the medical reason turned out to be v. easily solvable without surgery - go figure

Circumcision is easier for young babies, and they heal much better then 30-some year old. That is why I think that it should be done earlier, as well, doctors do recommend it here in USA.

In Kenya they are offering circumcision to anybody interested, and government is actually quote surprised at amount of people opted for procedure. Many young Kenyans are doing it in a try to suppress AIDS spread.

Mostly, only people who are not doing it are the one who will feel less man after it or the one who can't afford to take off time from work after procedure.

Originally posted by SuperFrog
Circumcision is easier for young babies, and they heal much better then 30-some year old. That is why I think that it should be done earlier, as well, doctors do recommend it here in USA.

Yeah, young babies are also easier to hold down when they scream and wriggle
Doctors recommend it so you think it should be done - I rest my case about the PR promotion of the US $800 million circumcision industry! Doctors also recommend you inject poison and irradiate yourself when you are sick, even though the stats show you're survival rate is higher if you do NOTHING!

In Kenya they are offering circumcision to anybody interested, and government is actually quote surprised at amount of people opted for procedure. Many young Kenyans are doing it in a try to suppress AIDS spread.

Yeah, propoganda works in all countries.
Do you know how AIDS is diagnosed in Africa?

Mostly, only people who are not doing it are the one who will feel less man after it or the one who can't afford to take off time from work after procedure.

Sorry, you totally lost me here, can you say that again in a different way so I can understand and respond?

What the hell is this?

didn't we have like 20 page thread already on this, which disproved and debunked the hell out of it

NOTHING TO DO WITH DISEASE

NOTHING TO DO WITH HYGIENE

ITS COSMETIC or RELIGIOUS or TRADITION!

In fact it proved multiple nerves in the foreskin which is important and not a "little bit of skin". Also it facilitate during intercourse as a sheath and prevents loss of sensation since circumcised ones are exposed all the time, they loose sensitivity to an extent.

reply to post by luciddream


This thread is a little different, come on in, the water's lovely

Originally posted by luciddream
What the hell is this?

didn't we have like 20 page thread already on this, which disproved and debunked the hell out of it

NOTHING TO DO WITH DISEASE

NOTHING TO DO WITH HYGIENE

ITS COSMETIC or RELIGIOUS or TRADITION!

In fact it proved multiple nerves in the foreskin which is important and not a "little bit of skin". Also it facilitate during intercourse as a sheath and prevents loss of sensation since circumcised ones are exposed all the time, they loose sensitivity to an extent.

Sorry, for my low knowledge of internet, Does capital letters mean you are yelling?

Also, I am sorry to break it to you, but it is actually proven to do with hygiene and disease.

What are the benefits of circumcision?

There is some evidence that circumcision has health benefits, including:

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases in men.
Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).

Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean.

Note: Some studies show that good hygiene can help prevent certain problems with the penis, including infections and swelling, even if the penis is not circumcised. In addition, using a condom during sex will help prevent STDs and other infections.

Source: WebMD

There are studies that show both, benefits and no benefits. But if you check who did studies, you will find that some that are trying to disapprove health reasons for circumcision are actually supported from religious organizations. That is similar to some other religious group calling on abolition of use of condoms. Think about it. (it lowers your sense of sexual act, does it not? )

Originally posted by RogerT3
Yeah, young babies are also easier to hold down when they scream and wriggle

Doctors recommend it so you think it should be done - I rest my case about the PR promotion of the US $800 million circumcision industry! Doctors also recommend you inject poison and irradiate yourself when you are sick, even though the stats show you're survival rate is higher if you do NOTHING!

Not sure what are you talking about. I am talking about medical procedure, and my little boy healed very fast after it.

From what I see from your post, I guess that you are one of those who does not like to have his children vaccinated, as that is just stupid doctors trying to get money from your insurance....

I already stated above medical and health reasons why circumcision is good. There are some concerns in procedure (more at adult age), but imho, here we see more religious beliefs being tackled...

Yeah, propoganda works in all countries.
Do you know how AIDS is diagnosed in Africa?

Propaganda? Yes, it took a lot of it to explain to people benefits of circumcision, and to their surprise, many opted to do it. Care to explain us how AIDS gets diagnosed in Africa? (also sources of your information would be beneficial to conversation)

Sorry, you totally lost me here, can you say that again in a different way so I can understand and respond?

I was still talking about Kenya, and some of reasons people did not do procedure. Is that hard to figure out?