It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
By all means, lets allow parents to beat their children. Cut them. Boil them and feed to little kittens. Just cause it's a bad idea for a society to protect them instead?
If you are consistent in your reasoning you will have to say (because you think it is OK for a parent to give their kid permanent “Spock ears”) that not allowing a parent to tattoo their child’s forehead with a swastika is only a way to establish a government authority. Do you believe that parents should be allowed to tattoo their kid’s forehead?* Or is your reasoning inconsistent?
Are you against ALL government authority? Should the police and military be abolished?
* Note that you cannot claim that tattooing your child's forehead with a swastika is socially unacceptable and having a freaky kid with Spock ears is.
The problem is that a fetus, baby, and even young children - are not "people." We may look upon them as people because of the potential to become a person - but we do not actually see a person before us when we address them in the present. We defer behavior of the child to the parents. We defer the wealth of a child to the parents. For many years after birth - we still treat a child as an extension of their parents.
It's not just an opinion. Neuropsychological research demonstrates the formation of early neural pathways to be crucial in establishing long-term biases in the system. While the brain retains a very high degree of neural plasticity well into the early 20s for most members of the population - exposure to processes of "indoctrination" are highly effective at manipulating that neural plasticity, as well.
Child is in no way an extension of the parents.
Child is a responsibility of the parents, if anything. Parenthood is primarily about obligations towards the child,
and then about parental rights, which are limited to be in harmony with rights of the child as a human being.
Chinese one child policy may be a bit strict, but it is much better than the other extreme, failed societes where children are let with their parents in complete anarchy and irresponsible parents breeding like rabbits. China will be the dominant power in 21st century, mark my words, your vision is again unsubstantiated.
But parental rights are not one of them, despite what many seem to think. They are inter-personal, "public" rights. And thus they are wide open to potential government intervention. Indeed, every more developed society regulates them quite extensively.
The only reason why circumcision is allowed is because it is a tradition and widespread. If not for this entirely irrelevant fact, circumcision would be banned just like female circumcision is. Think about that.
Regulation of neural pathways of the offspring is very real, what do you think "mandatory education" is? It really is a form of mild indoctrination, which children are a subject of for hours five days a week, by law.
Also, as another example, psychological abuse of children is outlawed, because of the concern about childs neural pathways.
So the precedent is already there, whatever example you come up with, I can show you we already regulate it. The question is one of degree only. Thats because parental rights are not absolute, they are a balance and a justified subject to government regulation.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by pieleg
Demonstrate the necessity of this "evil."
The justification for "why shouldn't parents be able to remove the foreskin of their child" is "because I don't think they should." It's a subjective line of reasoning with little objective support (what little there is comes into conflict with objective support for circumcision).
Prohibition and Abortion were both spearheaded by groups that argued the laws would protect aspects of equality and lead to overall sociological improvement.
This is a sociological can of worms to establish as a government authority.
reply to post by Aim64C
Because, obviously, if 60% of people think I shouldn't do something - it's their collective right to write laws or, failing that, discriminate against me to the point where I must comply with their demands.
Using that logic, some 80% of Americans claim to be Christian; therefor, bible study class will be mandatory in all schools.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by PsykoOps
By all means, lets allow parents to beat their children. Cut them. Boil them and feed to little kittens. Just cause it's a bad idea for a society to protect them instead?
You can also demonstrate them to be completely unnecessary and without any benefits.
reply to post by wittgenstein
Laws should be formed with a scientific, objective reasoning behind their necessity. Laws should not be formed according to the whims of moral trends, but from the hard mechanics and statistics of functional reasoning.
reply to post by Aim64C
This is also incorrect. Medical benefits of female circumcision cannot be supported. Further, the two procedures are far from equivocal. Female circumcision is far closer to castration in males than circumcision in males.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by Maslo
I can choose to become a nazi and raise my children as such. I can also raise them as a black panther. I can raise them to distrust and hate police - or that the government is planning to put microchips in them and control them like little robots.
Many of those teachings directly conflict with the very laws and principles that our nation was founded upon (THE Constitution as it was originally ratified). Yet we permit them.
Without it, there would be no consequences for those who choose to beat up their kids, deny them an education, starve them, rape them...
That is incorrect. There is a wealth of objective information available at the touch of a button which demonstrates that there is no reason other than religious beliefs or tradition to circumcise a child.
But on the subject of abortion, in most developed countries it is only allowed up until a certain point in the pregnancy. So it is still regulated by the government.
No, it is a decision by the majority that the argument for circumcision is weak and modern society cannot continue to condone it.
If that 80% of Americans thought that mandatory bible study class in all schools was indeed important then they would use their majority to vote the majority into power making the passing of this bill much, much easier. However, it appears this 80% of Americans recognise it probably isn't the brightest idea.
I have already provided evidence as to why circumcision is completely unnecessary and without any benefits. Where is your evidence that it is not?
You said it better than I ever could. The hard facts are that a tiny minority of boys have any medical problems with their foreskin, and only a tiny minority of those require surgical correction. That said, the logical conclusion is to stop the practice of circumcision on babies and children for non-medical reasons.
I fail to see how female circumcision is more like male castration?
Infibulation is particularly likely to cause long-term health problems. Because the urethral opening is covered, repeated urinary tract infections are common, and stones may form in the urethra and bladder because of obstruction and infection. If the opening is very small, menstrual flow may be blocked, leading to reproductive tract infections and lowered fertility or sterility. One early study estimated that 20-25% of cases of sterility in northern Sudan can be linked to infibulation.11
Without deinfibulation before childbirth, obstructed labor may occur, causing life-threatening complications for both mother and infant. Because birthrates are high in many countries where infibulation is practiced, a woman's infibulation scar may be cut and resewn many times during her reproductive years.
In addition, the amputation of the clitoris and other sensitive tissue reduces a woman's ability to experience sexual pleasure. For infibulated women, the consummation of marriage is likely to be painful because of the small vaginal opening and the lack of elasticity in the scar tissue that forms it. Tearing and bleeding may occur, or the infibulation scar may have to be cut open to allow penetration.
Western providers will most likely encounter delayed complications of infibulation,19 whose severity usually correlates with the extent of introital obstruction or scarring. Infibulated women can have keloids, adhesions, and dermoid cysts that obstruct the introitus, or further narrow the vaginal opening. An obstructive vulval skin diaphragm leads to a poor, slow urinary stream, dribbling, incontinence, and vaginal calculi,20 and maintains a blind pouch around the urethra and vagina, resulting in frequent vaginal and urinary tract infections.21 A narrow introitus may also obstruct passage of menstrual blood and result in dysmenorrhea and hematocolpos (painful retention and accumulation of blood in the vagina).
If a woman has recurrent infections, or significant obstruction of urine or menstrual blood, clinicians can refer her to a gynecologist for defibulation or stretching of vaginal tissue. Women with obstructive sequelae may not agree to these procedures prior to first intercourse or marriage. Although such a choice may be frustrating for their clinicians, patients have the right to make this decision, and clinicians can be invaluable to these patients if they manage these problems medically, and gently present these options again on future occasions.
And the medical benefits of female circumcision can be supported about the same as for male circumcision. That is, not at all.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by pieleg
www.hopkinsmedicine.org...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
They would have to change the Constitution before they could change the law.
You provided links to sites that use inflammatory language and, essentially, continually restate that circumcision is mutilation and attempts to play off of male paranoia regarding his genitalia.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by pieleg
And the medical benefits of female circumcision can be supported about the same as for male circumcision. That is, not at all.
You're new to this whole circumcision discussion thing, aren't you?
Originally posted by Aim64C
Because, obviously, if 60% of people think I shouldn't do something - it's their collective right to write laws or, failing that, discriminate against me to the point where I must comply with their demands.
Excellent link, however I fail to see anything in this article that can't be overcome by proper hygiene and safe sex. Again, not an argument for circumcision. Especially in developed nations.
This article merely reinforces every argument I have made and undermines yours. Good try though.
And in response to your point about people who would go to questionable characters offering back-street abortions, if that is what people resort to in a developed nation to get their sons circumcised then they absolutely do not deserve to have children. Cue state intervention.
If there was an 80% majority who believed this should be changed, then it is perfectly within their reach.
I'm afraid you have mixed up the evidence I provided with something else. The links I provided are not biased or inflammatory. I suggest you backtrack a bit and give them another look.
Castration involves making a male unable to reproduce. However female circumcision has about as much effect on her ability to reproduce as male circumcision has.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by pieleg
The problem is that you assume I have to argue for mandatory circumcision. Which is not what I am arguing.
That would be true if it was... well... true.
Then you are for population control. The government should be able to authorize only certain people to have children.
Yes?
That's a negative. Your sources are blatantly inflammatory and largely supported by activist sites with evidence manufactured from anti-circumcision magazines and other biased sources.
The two parts - while somewhat similar in concepts - are not necessarily similar in function. Alteration to one sex does not give much indication to how the alteration of the other would compare.
I do not assume that. I am merely pointing out that laziness, bad parenting and bad hygiene are not good reasons to lop off other people's body parts.
You really need to read sources more closely, and pay more attention if you wish to respond.
No. From a logical standpoint, it would be absolutely ridiculous for parents to seek out some dirty back alley circumcision for their child. It is abusive.
If the child really required a circumcision for medical reasons, a lovely clean hospital would be the place to go.
And again we are back here. I will post the links again, perhaps you just did not have time to reread the information.
The Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons does not support the circumcision of normal male neonates, infants or children in Australia.11 However, many parents still wish to have their boys circumcised for religious, ethnic, or personal reasons. If these procedures are performed, they should be done after 6 months of age, under general anaesthetic in safe, controlled, appropriate paediatric facilities.
There are very few medical indications for circumcision and this is particularly true under 5 years of age. Circumcision for non-medical reasons should be discouraged. However, if parents feel strongly about the issue, safe circumcision outside of the newborn period should be made available to them.
Regardless, female circumcision is more like male circumcision than castration. Glad we finally solved that side issue.
Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by pieleg
You're using inflammatory statements in an appeal to absurdity.
You can't read my posts correctly. Let alone a source.
Tag the section in question.
Review of existing literature supports that most children who are uncircumcised do well from a medical standpoint... Proper penile hygiene should all but eliminate the risk for foreskin-related medical problems that will require circumcision.
Yet people will do it. See the history of the Anti-Abortion laws.
And you still had a bunch of women bleeding out in emergency rooms because of their own personal decision to receive an abortion.
You're obviously a little confused. None of these support a ban on circumcision.
That's a negative.
Unless you care to try and back that with some kind of source.
It's no different than braces. Braces confer a physical change, mostly for the benefit of cosmetics. In all but the most extreme of cases, crooked teeth are a personal hygiene issue that requires parents to take the time to teach children how to properly work with their teeth.
Except we choose to place steel plates on them and straighten the teeth out unnaturally in order to comply with cosmetic fashion.
The two are no different. A child can never go back from having braces. Any 'character' they had due to their unique tooth arrangement is forever destroyed by the decision of the parent to put braces on the child.