9/11 Truth Frustrations

Hi, this is my first real post of a thread.

I believe that something on the 11th September 2001 went amiss. There have been documents that have not been released to the public from the official investigation, investigations into the attacks that appear to have not been as thorough as they should have been, potential evidence that was not considered in the official report, conflicting opinions from world leading structural engineers regarding the first time a steel structure has collapsed due to internal fires, wide reports of explosions in the lobby areas of the buildings,

All of these things are what I am interested in & where most of the answers lie I believe.

I love conspiracy theories, I look at them as interesting stories where 90% is fabricated or very creative of which 10% is truth.

I just feel very frustrated at times, that due to there being some pretty outlandish theories surround the 9/11 attacks, some of which I will not go into, they in themselves I feel detract credibility from those who are genuinely searching for some of the hardest answers of our generation.

I feel that there are some theories that simply cast the rest of us as Total Loonies that dare to question the governments of the world, all you have to do is mention that you don't believe the official story of 9/11 & most people within society will cast you as a total crackpot! I am sure you know that ''look'' that people give you if you mention your beliefs about that day! I must point out that I live in England also.

Sorry for the rant, it just seems that at times we do not help ourselves in our own journey for the truth, when so many things that surround our journey discredit us at the same time!

Thanks for taking the time to read
Richy

please enough for 9/11. we all know, all world know usa did it. just enough. we have more importent problems now.

reply to post by pigsy2400

I feel that there are some theories that simply cast the rest of us as Total Loonies that dare to question the governments of the world, all you have to do is mention that you don't believe the official story of 9/11 & most people within society will cast you as a total crackpot! I am sure you know that ''look'' that people give you if you mention your beliefs about that day! I must point out that I live in England also.

Some of us feel that those theories originated, and are continuing to be put forth, to do just that, give easy ammunition to those who wish to discredit everyone. Some people are just gullible and follow along blindly, others do it by design.

For example, when talking to someone about 911 and my questions and suspicious, without even telling them what I felt, their response was:

"So what did they do with all the people from the jets they replaced"

see? That's how it works.

Oh, you question anything about 911, then you obviously believe every single fringe theory out there about it.

reply to post by aytacaksel


most of which were a direct / in-direct result of 9/11, even if it wasnt a direct result of, repercussions throughout the whole middle east are still being felt now. Syria, Egypt,Libya? Spread of democracy throughout the Middle East region, all due to invasion and the destabalization of the Iraq / Afghanistan!

So yes, there are bigger issues in the world right now, as it has been throughout the ages. Most are intrinsically linked to eachother!

Originally posted by pigsy2400

I believe that something on the 11th September 2001 went amiss.

I am of the opinion that many things went amiss for several months, if not years prior to 9/11.

There have been documents that have not been released to the public from the official investigation, investigations into the attacks that appear to have not been as thorough as they should have been

Very likely true. It's called politicans covering their asses regarding their ill conceived notions about just how to deal with terrorism.

potential evidence that was not considered in the official report,

Ifyou're talking the NIST report, then I would disagree.

conflicting opinions from world leading structural engineers regarding the first time a steel structure has collapsed due to internal fires,

Let's be clear here.

There are indeed conflicting opinions from LEADING structural engineers and engineering circles. These take issue with some aspects of the NIST report about things such as believing that the fuel loads used by NIST were too light, that the SFRM on the trusses were in worse shape than NIST used in their simulations, that thermal contraction should have been more thoroughly studied, etc. But NONE of any of the LEADING structural engineers or engineering associations disagree that planes + fire=collapse.

The engineers that are part of AETwoof are NOT leading structural engineers. ACtually, very few of the engineers there have any business using their engineering credential to give their opinion any weight since they are electrical engineers, software engineers, etc. And some of the actual structural engineers there are downright loony. One believes that the collapses began at the bases and not at the plane impact level. Another believes nukes were used.At any rate, they have produced next to nothing for you to learn from other than a personal statement of incredulity.

Not very inspiring.

wide reports of explosions in the lobby areas of the buildings,

yes. from the jet fuel.

I love conspiracy theories, I look at them as interesting stories where 90% is fabricated or very creative of which 10% is truth.

LOL.....

Many of the truthers here believe the info they get 100%. Very encouraging that you are a skeptic of what you read.

I believe the difference between you and the others is that they are cynics, and not skeptical of any OS. And their cynical world view inhibits their ability to discern good info from bad.

I just feel very frustrated at times, that due to there being some pretty outlandish theories surround the 9/11 attacks, some of which I will not go into, they in themselves I feel detract credibility from those who are genuinely searching for some of the hardest answers of our generation.

You SHOULD feel frustrated. They are not skeptical of the OS. They are cynical of ALL things, and wil accept only info that reinforces their cynical world view.

I feel that there are some theories that simply cast the rest of us as Total Loonies

True.

Sorry for the rant, it just seems that at times we do not help ourselves in our own journey for the truth, when so many things that surround our journey discredit us at the same time!

True again.

Originally posted by pigsy2400

I just feel very frustrated at times, that due to there being some pretty outlandish theories surround the 9/11 attacks, some of which I will not go into, they in themselves I feel detract credibility from those who are genuinely searching for some of the hardest answers of our generation.

I feel that there are some theories that simply cast the rest of us as Total Loonies that dare to question the governments of the world, all you have to do is mention that you don't believe the official story of 9/11 & most people within society will cast you as a total crackpot! I am sure you know that ''look'' that people give you if you mention your beliefs about that day! I must point out that I live in England also.

Welcom aboard. Just becuase there are people here who are blindly devoted to their conspiracy stories that they become rude to the point of being irrational, that doesn't mean everyone here needs to be that way. Anyway...

The problem I have with the truther movement is that they rely extremely heavily on propaganda, to the point where their conspiracy theories wouldn't be able to survive without them. Some examples that come to mind are...

A) YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU. I don't know how it is in England, but here in the states we have a tradition of NOT trusting the gov't. Whenever any new law comes out the first thing we ask is "who's getting rich off it", so when these truthrs come along and insist that if we don't believe in their conspiracy stories it must mean we "believe everythign the government tells us" it comes off as the most unrepentently uninformed and foolish thing around. Imagine someone over in England starting an argument to demand that South Africa end Apartheid. When you tell them Apartheid ended years ago, they refuse to believe you and they start a fist fight with you. That's about how "you believe everything the government tells you" sounds to the rest of us.

B) YOU'RE AFRAID OF HEARING THE TRUTH. Let's face it, everyone is claiming they're telling the truth. When soneone is knowingly lying to you you, they're not going to admit it- they're going to insist they're telling you the truth because admitting they're lying detracts from their credibility and ruins whatever goal they were trying to achieve by lying to you. So when someone makes outrageous claims like "the towers were fake buildings" or "Silverstein stages 9/11 for the insurance money" we're naturally going to take it with a grain of salt until the claim can be corroborated. Insisting "we're afraid of hearing the truth" is just another way to weasel out of the responsibility to back up the claims someone is making.

C) EVERYTHING IS THE WORK OF SINISTER SECRET AGENTS. The one glue that keeps literally every conspiracy together, from how they supposedly planted the controlled dmeolitions in the towers to why noone knows the queen is a shape shifting space alien is by saying it's the work of armies of sinister secret agents. Obama can't cover up selling weapons to Mexican drug lords, the Vatican can't cover up corruption in their banking system, and the British monarchy can't cover up how crappy they treated princess Di and yet they can stage the most complex and intricate conspiracy in all of recorded human history and cover it up with the secrecy of the grave, all by using these wonderful, magical sinister secret agents that seem to lurk in the shadows, back alleys, and under your floorboards. You might as well say the leprechauns did it. The moment they attempt to use sinister secret agents to fill in the blanks in their claims it's an admission they're just making stuff up as they go along.

Now, knowing this, why do YOU think the truther movement is having so much difficulty in movign their conspriacy accusations out of these internet chat rooms and into the real world? Ten bucks says that someone is going to post it's because "we believe everything the gov't tells us", "we're afraid of the truth" , or it's being covered up by armies of sinister secret agents". Any takers?

Didn't think so.

Originally posted by aytacaksel
please enough for 9/11. we all know, all world know usa did it. just enough. we have more importent problems now.

Yes, thank you man from Turkey for telling us Americans to stop thinking about the attack that occurred on our soil little more than 10 years ago. You're right....

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters

Some of us feel that those theories originated, and are continuing to be put forth, to do just that, give easy ammunition to those who wish to discredit everyone. Some people are just gullible and follow along blindly, others do it by design.

See what I mean? Not even two posts later someone "runs home to mama" and tries to use the "sinister secret agents" excuse to rationalize why they can't get anywhere with their conspiracy stories. It has nothing to do with the improbability of what they're claiming. It has nothing to do with the fact they're getting all their information off some internet con artist making things up to get people all spooky/scary. It has nothign to do with the fact that the most logical suspects for terrorism that murdered innocent people are- surprise- terrorists who've murdered innocent people. NOPE NOPE NOPE it's all because of those persnickety sinister secret agents.

The point is, it's becoming increasingly apparent that the truthers are by far their own worst enemy.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Hi, thanks for the warm welcome.

Firstly I believe the reason that the 'Truth' movement hasnt moved out of chat rooms / forums such as these & actually made a difference in the ''real'' world, is as I stated in my original post.

There are some theories which are so out there, that they discredit people who genuinely just want answers to questions that havent been answered. There are too many inconsistincies in the official report when compared to eye witness accounts among other sources.

I am a logical thinking person, I don't believe everything I read, I like facts / evidence not conjecture & inconsistencies, I have a free mind, I dont think that shape shifting aliens from the Zeta-Reticulia star system have built holographic projectors that were displayed onto non-existant towers which in turn caused their collapse.

I just wish that people would look at history, time before the attacks and the trends throughout conflicts and attacks that have happended before & since as a result. The details that have still not been fully explained or investigated.

Its a shame that there are so many people out there with their own agenda, whether its Alex Jones, the government, The countless Youtube ''Documentries'' explaining that it was an inside job, which in itself is its own propaganda for money making purposes for DVD / books sales, to the government who wont release footage of the pentagon attacks!!

I just wish sometimes we werent associated with the Loony Fringe, if we werent, I believe that the 9/11 debate would be accepted publicly & debated publicly.

We it seems, are our own worst enemy, we do not need Dark seedy disinformation agents, we do that job for them!!

I

reply to post by pigsy2400
If you want those responsible for the crime to go unpunished, listen to what Dave says. According to him there were only nineteen arabs with box cutters involved, and we were so unprepared and confused, that they knocked down three buildings with two planes. He will also tell you that there's an airplane in that hole in Shanksville, and all that remains of a jumbo jet at the pentagon, would fit in a dumpster. He has all the answers, and is only here to make sure that you don't get swindled by some crackpots.
Or, you could continue to ask for answers to the questions that haven't been answered to your satisfaction. There are thousands of us, and each day our group grows. This is the most important issue of our time, and if we scream loud enough, they will have to answer our questions. Either way, Dave's looking out for you. Not a day goes by that he's not saying something about 9/11. I guess it's really important to him. What a guy, huh?

I find his approach fascinating, I also find your remarks just as fascinating as well.

You both appear to be saying the near enough the same thing, just from different sides of the fence.

''It was definatly an inside job beause it cant have been anything else''

''your government does lie, but not all the time, it was Al-qaeda because it can't have been anything else

I am very rational & logically thinking, I don't know what happended on 9/11, I seek evidence which would point to a logical conclusion as the official report doesnt sit well with me.

To me there are certain things that were only seen from a 1 dimesional point of view, that was probably biased as well. I certainly do not know which way to swing, all I know that there is too many inconsistencies and that information has been withheld, not release or is open to interpretation.

Squabbling, strong characters with strong opionions that are never wrong and totally crazy f*****rs are not helping or aiding us in this journey.

The replies thus far, have proven why I feel frustrated, which was the reason for the post to start with!

Looking back through history it seems quite doubtful that the real information will be released, will we have to wait 50years to gain access to some of the documentation that is currently being withheld?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Now, knowing this, why do YOU think the truther movement is having so much difficulty in movign their conspriacy accusations out of these internet chat rooms and into the real world? Ten bucks says that someone is going to post it's because "we believe everything the gov't tells us", "we're afraid of the truth" , or it's being covered up by armies of sinister secret agents". Any takers?

Didn't think so.

It seems like you already know the answer, But, I'll give you my opinion.
It's because people like you are:

A: DISREGARDING ALL OF THE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS
there are many intelligent, educated, sane people who have seen the videos, and heard the eyewitness accounts, and studied the FACTS, and thought about all of the possibilities, and have come to a reasoned belief that many major points of the OS cannot possibly be true. I could be wrong but I think most reasonable people are not claiming to know exactly what happened. Reasonable people need reasonable evidence one way or another.

B: LUMPING ALL "CONSPIRACY THEORISTS" INTO ONE GROUP AND ATTACKING THEM
for instance, I've been considering this subject for years, and I've never come across anyone claiming that the buildings or plains were holograms, at least not more than once or twice. I was at the WTC a week before 911, and I lived 10 blocks away to the north on that day. The buildings were real buildings and the first plane flew over my apartment, waking me up on a day off from work. I know the no-plane theory is ridiculous. But I have also heard about the probability of explosives bringing down the three towers rather than just fire+airplane, and from what I've seen and read, and what I witnessed that day, I believe it, and I could be wrong, but it seems obvious. And therefore to me the OS is at least partially (big part) a lie. But therefore, to you, I'm a Truther, so I must be a loony hologram believer, or at least, and idiot.

C: WHETHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT, YOU ARE A SOLDIER IN THE ARMY OF SINISTER SECRET AGENTS (as you say)
You and others like you continually impede or discourage others' attempts to gain information and construct reasonable theories. I can't imagine for what reason, other than either you don't want any information coming out that contradicts a story you're perpetuating, or you're terrified of the implications if you are wrong. I think its the former. Its a guess. I could be wrong.

I could be wrong. Could you? If yes, than you have nothing to lose by allowing others to seek the truth, even if it ends up contradicting what you believe. If no, than there is nothing more to say.

reply to post by pigsy2400

Thanks for the post. Your frustration is shared by many. We don't need disinfo agents, but they do exist. Whether or not they are employed by dark sinister forces, or they have taken it upon themselves to defend their government, they are here... I think.

Originally posted by conwaylemmon

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Now, knowing this, why do YOU think the truther movement is having so much difficulty in movign their conspriacy accusations out of these internet chat rooms and into the real world? Ten bucks says that someone is going to post it's because "we believe everything the gov't tells us", "we're afraid of the truth" , or it's being covered up by armies of sinister secret agents". Any takers?

Didn't think so.

It seems like you already know the answer, But, I'll give you my opinion.
It's because people like you are:

A: DISREGARDING ALL OF THE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS

B: LUMPING ALL "CONSPIRACY THEORISTS" INTO ONE GROUP AND ATTACKING THEM


C: WHETHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT, YOU ARE A SOLDIER IN THE ARMY OF SINISTER SECRET AGENTS (as you say)

I could be wrong. Could you? If yes, than you have nothing to lose by allowing others to seek the truth, even if it ends up contradicting what you believe. If no, than there is nothing more to say.

to which i would respond...

A) In case you haven't been paying attention, all the "legitimate questions" you have have largely been answered already. It's just that the truthers don't want to believe the answers are true so they make up excuses for why they don't have to believe it- gov't disinformation, planted aircraft wreckage, fake eyewitnesses, and other excuses are common. Post one of your "legitimate questions" and I'll give you an example.

B) I have said many times I do not believe the conspiracy theorists are idiots. What I have said is that you're getting the bulk of your conspircy claims from one or more of the con artists running those damned fool conspiracy web sites and you don't know you're being conned. The entire reason why there are so many conflicting conspiracy claims- was the gov't involved or was it the Jews, were the towers destroyed by controlled demolitions or were they destroyed by nukes in the basement, and so on- is becuase you're all getting your different information from different web sites. The controlled demolitions people for example are getting theirs from Gage, while the "lasers from otuer space" people are getting theirs from Judy Wood. Not a month goes by where someone posts a link to something Alex Jones said. There is literally no way you can deny this.

C) I have also said many times that you can come up with any alternative scenario that you'd like. Go ahead and say that leprechauns staged 9/11 if you want...but the responsibility thereafter falls on YOU to provide us with a better alternative scenario that better fits the facts, and that's aLL the facts, not just those carefully selected cherry picked ones you're using. Simply saying "the OS is a lie" while giving us some cartoonish, conspiracy theory that doesn't satisfyingly explain how 9/11 happened either is ridiculous, and trying to make your square conspiracy peg fit into a round 9/11 hole by applying liberal amounts of "sinister secret agents" is even more ridiculous.

I mean, seriously, if a math test asked you what 2+2 equals, are you really going to answer "the official story says it's four but sinister secret agents can make it equal 5 if they wanted it to"?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

B) I have said many times I do not believe the conspiracy theorists are idiots.

I agree.

They are just ignorant of what they do not know. Lack of self awareness?

A)
How do you know to which legitimate questions I was referring? I mentioned no gov't disinformation, planted aircraft wreckage, or fake eyewitnesses. I'm not going to give specific examples, because you won't consider them, although you will claim that you have considered them, and proven them wrong. I'll summarize by saying that most of the 911 blueprint video, to me, explains the WTC collapse, better than the nist report or the 911 commission. It isn't perfect either, but I firmly believe that the buildings exploded. as in, with explosives of some sort. I don't know what I believe about much else, but buildings with explosives in them leads logically to contrary theories. I think I know your rebuttal, and I simply don't agree, so I probably won't be commenting further on this, unless you give me something to change my mind.

B)
I'm forming my theories based on many sources, yes. I believe that I have the ability to form logical, reasoned conclusions based on the information that I have seen. and I trust my own judgement. Either way I'm being conned. You're theory could be the correct theory, and if it is, I'm being conned by the loony conspiracy websites and a lot of well meaning scientists. If your theory is incorrect, and mine is at least partially correct, I am being conned by my government. Hmm...Who has conned me before? I actually don't care if my theory is correct, though. I do care if the government's is not. That is where the dire implications lie. And that is why we need to investigate this further as a country with a mind open to all possibilities. How do I get off these stupid message boards and help do that? I don't know yet.

C)
I think B) above answers this, except for the part where you do B) from my previous post. And again, I don't claim to know everything, and I think most people who have really thought about it don't claim to know either.

And this:
"I mean, seriously, if a math test asked you what 2+2 equals, are you really going to answer "the official story says it's four but sinister secret agents can make it equal 5 if they wanted it to"?"
is not at all what I did.

If you like analogies, let me give you one to ponder.

let's say you have a little daughter. she falls off her high chair and hurts her arm. you rush her to the emergency room and the first doctor you see says her arm is broken, but otherwise she's ok. good, she's going to be fine. the doctor applies a cast and gives her a childrens' tylenol for the pain. everything is going to be ok.

but while she lies there resting, she begins to convulse, she begins to vomit, and choke. her heart stops and she dies. The doctor eventually tells you that a blood clot formed at the contusion to her arm and was ultimately caused by a rare allergy to childrens' tylenol. The clot traveled to her lungs and to her brain and gave her a stroke and this is definitely why she died. several more docs come to check the case and all claim that a blood clot formed as a result of a rare allergy to childrens' tylenol and caused her to stroke out. there was nothing that could have been done to stop her death.

You accept this because you are so heartbroken, and you have no reason to think otherwise. you bury her. you try to go on with your life. you even receive a settlement check from the hospital's malpractice insurance.

some time later you get a call from someone claiming to be at the hospital at the time of your daughter's death. You don't know this person, but they claim that they think your daughter was poisoned. they tell you no child has ever died from a children's tylenol allergy. that they think they saw the doctor give your daughter something other than tylenol. It makes you angry to have to relive that tragedy. You dismiss it.

Then you hear a terrible story about another little girl who died several years ago from a rare blood clot and that the hospital admitted that one of the doctors may have poisoned her!

Then you come across information that suggests that a complete autopsy was never performed on your daughter. How could this be? You question everyone at the hospital. Some homeless guy on a gurney says "yeah they poison little girls all the time". seems far fetched. but you do find several others, who seem to recollect something suspicious from that day and some tell you that there was something wrong with all of the doctors' behavior that day and ever since.

you try to get the police to investigate. You tell all of your family and friends you go on internet forums that might relate. Most say "doctors don't poison children". It comes out on the news that some loony is accusing doctors of killing babies. The Discovery Health channel has a show on how doctors pledge the hippocratic oath and can't possibly kill. I could go on. but I would like to ask you to sincerely answer this: Would you demand that her body be exhumed for further investigation? Or would you believe the doctor's story.

We never got a thorough autopsy.