reply to post by ColoradoJens
How can anyone think it is ok to do this to children, all in the name of God? The truth lies in the fact that religion HATES your sexuality and wants
you to be both ashamed of it and to be scarred for life - that to lessen your sexual pleasure somehow makes you more closer to God's ideals.
What an ignorant thing to say.
I realize Germany has a lot wrong with it, but regarding this (and scientology) they have it right. Who are YOU to say I should have my genitals
mutilated because your God demands it?
What in the hell are you talking about? The common practice of circumcision - for Christians at any rate - is not religious. It became a 'fad' of
sorts but it is not mandated by Christian law, therefore, has nothing to do with any religious or metaphysical ideas.
I don't even know why I'm going to bother to appeal to such a hate-ridden and ignorant post, knowing you'll just retort whatever is in your 'heart' to
retort, but nevertheless, someone should put forward some common sense into this thread.
Opposition to circumcision is an ancient ideology; it was the Greeks who first sought to impose laws against circumcision against the Jews - as well
as observance of Sabbath (which in their minds proved how "lazy" the Jews were) and study of the Torah - which was a senseless book of mythology. In
other words, everything hateful to the precepts of liberal democracy, the Greeks embodied. They refused to accept a way of looking at things different
from their own.
Now, overlooking the extreme irony of extolling tolerance only to show intolerance to a practice you only choose to understand in your secular
terminology, I will endeavor to explain to you the metaphysical basis of the Jewish logic for circumcision.
The God of Judaism, in metaphysical parlance, is a God of this world - this dimension of existence. It is intimately personal, emotional, and relevant
to the ways in which men live. Conversely, the god of the Greeks, or the Hindus - of most pagans - in it's highest estimation is what philosophy calls
the Godhead. This is God as He is in Himself, unrelated to man and unrelated to physical reality; it is the "I" before its differentiation into a
determinant reality, as opposed to the "I" which decides and restricts itself to a particular mode of existence. Therefore, this conception of God is
negative - it is the negation of all determined states - which is to say, the negation of our earthly experience. The Hindu, Greek, or Buddhist (and
Sufi as well) worships God in spirit alone, as the Christian Bible teaches "“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"; In other words, there is universal agreement despite outward dissimilarity between the
New Testament and Eastern ideas: all differentiated states of being are subsumed by the experience of homogenous oneness, making 'morality' an issue
of essentially conventional import.
Judaism doesn't see things that way. Morality - justice - is the sine quo non of earthly experience and intimately bound with man's total connection
with God. Personal experience is the province of mysticism. Judaism objectifies man, see's man as a being who essentially finds meaning and purpose
outside himself and in the 'other' - which Viktor Frankl called 'the will to self transcendence' - where the individual in order to find himself,
paradoxically needs to look outward, into 'other things': this is a fact of psychology, and it is also a fundamental fact of metaphysical dynamics.
Judaism is all about this. In order for man to achieve inner and outer peace, in order to really enter union with God, he must first look outward into
the social world and concretize his inner freedom as moral institutions - which preserve those freedoms.
Now, onto the issue of sexuality and circumcision. You were right here in that circumcision seeks to 'sanctify' sexuality. Why?? Looking deeper,
circumcision expresses a more fundamental outlook of Judaism: it basically argues that man as he is is not enough. If man is truly to be man, he must
be more than man, otherwise his instinctuality will cause him to descend lower than animals; and as a self conscious being with the power of reason,
to act like an animal is indeed to be worse than an animal, who knows no better. So that, this idea of the ideal - of what man CAN be, of what human
society CAN ATTAIN, is the chief motivator of Judaism. It doesn't expect perfection - since that is impossible, and really, only something
Christianity maintains - but it does expect us to try, to 'wrestle' with the conditions life or God puts before us and become more because of it. This
is the esoteric reason for Jacobs name Israel - which literally means "wrestle with God"; wrestling with our lower selves - which God implanted in
man, and with belief in a God that baffles our minds - our logic.
Circumcision of the foreskin symbolizes the hardness of mans heart. The foreskin 'sensitizes' one to sensuality - and by doing so, desensitizes ones
apprehension of the divine concern: the concern for man in his totality, in his social relations, in his becoming what he can become. So, we can be
enslaved to our passions - forgo the usual idea of marriage (of loyalty, faithfulness and trust in the other - ideas begotten by the Jewish religion)
and accept the evil that will result (and evil, i.e something self destructive, always results from indulging in sexuality; HPV and Herpes being some
biological examples :lol
or, we can accept Gods yoke, try to live better, and by doing so, enslave ourselves to Him. I'd prefer to be a slave to God
than a slave to my penis.
You may not like this - since from the animalistic - man perspective, it's irksome to hear. You may invoke doubts and satheism and argue that such a
conception doesn't deserve to exist. You can do that. But since this is a completely harmless practice that brings up children in a tradition more
beautiful and sublime in it's conception of man and the world, it is nothing short of astounding to my moral sensibility to hear anyone trash talking
it. It looks to me as the grumbling of a child, wrapped up in sophisticated language to give it the pretense of moral superiority.
I don't challenge your right to live as you please. Likewise, I EXPECT the same decency, since this is what liberal democracy requires: not a
'melting' into one homogenous culture where every one has to act, think and be the same - NO! - i rebel against that bawdy conformism. I want a world
with a conservatism to contrast liberalism. A world in which everybody fulfills what the law requires of them. But law should not encroach upon the
issues of religion. Society should never become so much a vehicle for a particular philosophy - which unfortunately it is increasingly becoming - so
as to eliminate any opposition. Just as governments are mixed, so to should society.
This, in the end, is an attack on Judaism. And it's especially brazen that the Germans - oh those lovely germans, who so enjoyed tormenting it's Jews
70 years ago - who would propose this law. And if you complain about them doing it - they invoke the holocaust card, which is to say, "the holocaust
is so overused" card. But does that change the bare fact? That what motivates them in this decision is identical to the feelings which motivated the
Nazis in their hatred of Judaism (A Jew according to the nuremberg laws was any person with a parent or grandparent who followed the Jewish RELIGION:
it was an attack on their IDEOLOGY, foremost, rather than an attack on their race. The issue of race was contingent on their spirituality: a
'halfling' contained the 'spirit' or some measure of spirit of the attitude towards life that Judaism engenders)
edit on 26-8-2012 by
dontreally because: (no reason given)