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A One State Solution - Israel

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posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by Kovenov
 





when one remembers that the sovereign manifests & implements law without consent of its populace.


This isn't communist Russia. Israel is a democracy: the Arabs who receive citizenship will be able to vote in whatever candidate they desire, and since Israels elective system is party based, and not district based, Arabs can be sure that their interests would be well represented (as they currently are by Arab mks and Israel's judicial system to begin with, which makes all things 'justicable', and Arabs frequently make appeals before Israels high courts and win) by the parties they vote for.

And what was a tad bit "cankerous"? Whats cankerous is the Palestinian media. Check out Palestine Media Watch and see for yourself what sort of things they are being daily subjected to. And you wonder why this population refuses to make peace with Israel.




posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


The conceptual imagery evoked a "cankerous" outcome to the extent that the solution would trade one problem for another under the auspice of "sovereignty." But if you say that Arabs would have a role in government & function side-by-side as sovereign, then your idea no longer seems cankerous.

My misunderstanding.



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by Patriotsrevenge
 



Giving them citizenship wont help. They will attack Israel, any chance they get. They have been raised to hate and fight Israeli Jews and Christians so they just need to be booted out of Israel and be done with it.
This PC two state crap is against Gods wishes and basic common sense.


Its really funny how christians think a 2 state solution is "against Gods wishes" (as if they know what God thinks).... and at the same time, support a people who oppose and insult the central figure of Christianity.



edit on 26-6-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





"I'd have a hard time making peace with people who put me in opened aired prison/ghetto too. “


Oh dear... please remind us why the walls and fences were built there in the first place ??
How is it a “prison” when they can enter Egypt from Gaza, or into Jordan from the west bank ?
Nice of you to use the word “Ghetto”. I don't think you have a clue of it means since History isn't your strong side, as you demonstrated by “forgetting” which side it was to reject any peace offering time and again.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by Kovenov
 





The conceptual imagery evoked a "cankerous" outcome to the extent that the solution would trade one problem for another under the auspice of "sovereignty." But if you say that Arabs would have a role in government & function side-by-side as sovereign, then your idea no longer seems cankerous. My misunderstanding.


Yes, you are correct about the first assertion, as well as the second.

But the problem in governance is less of a problem than the issue of an implacable enemy that refuses to acknowledge Israel whether a Palestinian state does or does not exist. Since Israel has pursued and found failure on one course, it's time to give it up and accept the reality of the situation: the Palestinians are an issue whether they are or are not under Israeli sovereignty. But to be in control is better than not to be.

In any case, Israel would grant them individual but not communal rights. Communal rights, as in all democracies, goes in the way of the majority. Since the Jews will have a 2:1 majority over the Arabs, it will stay a Jewish state.

But as for individual rights, every Arab citizen of Israel will be treated no differently from the Jewish citizen as currently exists for Israeli Arabs.
edit on 27-6-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 02:41 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


example ... JORDAN ... im sitting in my my hotel in amman looking out the window and you know what i see ... 1 mosque ... 3 churches and 2 synagogues ... granted mosques outnumber them enormously but i find it ironic that as im reading this thats what i see ... and jordan is a recognized secular state ... granted it i jordan and we all know the history but still dont say theres not hope ... peace should always be the first option



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 02:58 AM
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reply to post by 42sadhu
 


Why are you lying? Jordan has a law prohibiting Jews from living in Jordan. Their "right of return" forbids Jews from returning to areas west of the Jordan where they used to live.

During Jordan's occupation of the west bank they destroyed some 100 ancient synagogues. What the hell than are you talking about? If such synagogues exist - which they do not - take some pictures of them on your phone and upload them. Also, write on a piece of paper your username and place it slightly inside the picture to prove it's not fake.

You might want to look up the thing you intend to lie about before you make a post about it.




Law No. 6 of 1954 on Nationality (last amended 1987)

Article 1

This Law may be cited as the Jordanian Nationality Law, 1954, and shall come into force on the date of its publication in the Official Gazette.

Article 3

The following shall be deemed to be Jordanian nationals:

(1)Any person who has acquired Jordanian nationality or a Jordanian passport under the Jordanian Nationality Law, 1928, as amended, Law No. 6 of 1954 or this Law;

(2)Any person who, not being Jewish, possessed Palestinian nationality before 15 May 1948 and was a regular resident in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan between 20 December 1949 and 16 February 1954;

Link
...Strange that a country that excludes citizenship to Jews would have synagogues.........



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


have you ever been to west amman ... go to rainbow street right down from de silva cafe ... there a 2 synagogues stacked on top of each other with a russian orthodox and a jerusalem episcopal diosece flanking them ... go look then claim lies ... you know prostitution lcohol and mj are all illegal also but they are openly sold and used nonetheless ... btw i met a group of ethiopian jews today who literally live like bedouins on mt nebo right next to the tomb of moses ... but no they are jews so thats impossible and illegal ... dont believe everything you read homie ... go see the world



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


I'm a big supporter of Israel but that idea is just DOA. What makes you think the Palestinians want Israeli Citizenship? It's wrong on so many levels. Till both sides are willing to let the other live in peace in secure borders, free from attack, there will not be peace. The Two state solution is the only one that is viable now. Egypt will not annex Gaza and Jordan will not Annex the West Bank. If Israel wants peace for it's future generations, it will have to accept peaceful Palestinian State as a neighbor. If Palestinians want a State for it's future generations, it will have to accept a peaceful Jewish Israel as a neighbor. There is no one without the other.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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by the way ... my pone is a 20 dollar cricket pre pay that obviously does not do anyhing here hence why i did not bring it ... i have my laptop and my diary and a a german 45mm cam that i will develop in 3 weeks after i got to jerusalem and haifa and go home ... be patient friend you will glady get your pics because i have already planned a wonderful thread detailing my journeys ... you will see plenty including jews in jordan ... i do have a lovely video of the sun setting over jericho and the dead sea from the top of nebo ... pretty spectacular in my opinion
edit on 27-6-2012 by 42sadhu because: (no reason given)


oh and if you understand that article of law it means anyone who has palestinian papers cant be jews ... that does not include native bedouins or native hashemite families or immigrants from yemen
edit on 27-6-2012 by 42sadhu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 





In order to insure the continuity of the Jewish state, and to FINALLY exercise sovereignty over Palestine's Arab, which allows Israel the ability to change their Jew hating, anti-Israeli culture, will Israeli find their best chance at peace.


You're not going to change Islam, that is the core of their culture, not until they start to realize that Muhammad was a lying conqueror using religion to build an empire, much like Nimrod or Constantine.

Ofcourse this means that Israel would have to tear down the apartheid walls they have built around towns like Bethlehem and stop subjugating christians and muslims and treating them like prisoners in the country. Personally i don't see that happening because they want an all jewish state which only fuels the fire for persecuion, instead of quenching it. An Israel following Talmud is no better than an Islam following Quran, you're not going to find peace in either book that emphasizes screwing people not of their respective religions.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by 42sadhu
 





you know prostitution lcohol and mj are all illegal also but they are openly sold and used nonetheless


How can you even compare prostitution, alcohol and weed to a building??? I didn't make that law up. It's a well known fact that no Jews live in Jordan. Why you seem to think a RUSSIAN synagogue, of all synagogues, exists in west Amman is beyond me. It's a lie, or you're simply mistaken with what you're looking at.

I showed the law in my previous post, taken straight from a UN refugee website.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by dontreally
 


Giving them citizenship wont help. They will attack Israel, any chance they get. They have been raised to hate and fight Israeli Jews and Christians so they just need to be booted out of Israel and be done with it. This PC two state crap is against Gods wishes and basic common sense.


THIS.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 





Till both sides are willing to let the other live in peace in secure borders, free from attack, there will not be peace.


Its like talking to a wall.

Both Hamas and Fatah - the two groups making up the Palestinian Authority, refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Jewish state. Alright? Do you think I'm lying or something???

In 2000, as tirelessly reiterated time and again in this thread,b Ehud Barak offerred a package to Yasser Arafat - leader of Fatah and the PA - which he rejected. That package would have given the Palestinians their state in 97% of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. East Jerusalem as their capital and 30 billion dollars of reparations for Palestinian refugees. Did he accept it, or reject it? As usual, and as Abba Eban once said, the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

If it isn't completely clear by now that the Palestinians DO NOT WANT PEACE with a Jewish state in what they believe to be Muslim lands, than it is nothing short of idiotic to pursue this peace plan with an enemy who desires nothing but capitulations and concessions. Also, since they are so obviously opposed to peace with Israel, if such a state was established, what would that accomplish other than giving Palestinians official international recognition and perhaps more support in their continuing campaign to see to it that the Jewish state is destroyed to be replaced by a Muslim state; Also, and this again is a fact, the PA states as one of their goals that when a Palestinian state is established all Jews who didn't live in Palestine before 1948 will be deported. If they are so interested in peace, why do they have such an antisemitic article in their desire to establish a state???

Amazing the double standard. If Israel said Arabs couldn't live in Israel, there would be international condemnation; when Mahmoud Abbas says all Jews who didn't live in Palestine before 1948 would be deported, it's either ignored or sympathetically understood.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally

In 2000, as tirelessly reiterated time and again in this thread,b Ehud Barak offerred a package to Yasser Arafat - leader of Fatah and the PA - which he rejected. That package would have given the Palestinians their state in 97% of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. East Jerusalem as their capital and 30 billion dollars of reparations for Palestinian refugees. Did he accept it, or reject it? As usual, and as Abba Eban once said, the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.



Why should the Pals accecpt a package which gives them back a fraction of what they had before?

They had the entirety of Palestine before Israel was invented.

Then Israel took about 50% of what they owned.

The over a number years Israel stole at least 50% of the remaining 50%.

So now Israel have about 80% of what the Pals used to have.

Now you think it's a good deal for the Pals if they accept, what did you say 97% of the 20% they have now.

If they accepted that they would end up with less than 20% of what was theirs to begin with.

I think your nuts if you think that is a fair deal.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by bigyin
 





Why should the Pals accecpt a package which gives them back a fraction of what they had before?


What do you mean by "before". There was no before. There was no Palestinian people before 1948. Before that, they were part of the British mandate of Palestine. 80% of that mandate was broken apart and given to a Hashemite prince Abdullah, brother of Faisal, king of Iraq. 2/3rds of Jordans present day population are "Palestinian" Arabs. Before 1919, when the British mandate was created, the land called "Palestine" wasn't called such, but was known as southern Syria, apart of the Syrian province of the Ottoman empire.

So when did they have "more"? At what point are you referring to?




Then Israel took about 50% of what they owned.


Do you even bother with the history of the subject? The original 1937 and later on the 1947 UN partition of Palestine gave 65% of the land to the Arabs. Israel got swamp land in the north west, from Haifa in the north to Tel Aviv in the south, to the sea of galilee in the east. The Arabs that lived in that region were estimated at 100,000 to 150,000, about a quarter of the Jewish population of 600,000. It was upon this fragment of a state that the Arabs led by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia attacked unprovoked.




So now Israel have about 80% of what the Pals used to have.


Ok. Firstly, they got that land after winning a defensive war. Second, the IDF doesn't occupy any major population centers in Palestinian Arab territories. They divested from those areas in 1995.

And just too add, as a side not, generally, when a people sides with the losing axis in a war, such as the german people in WWI and WWII, they are penalized for it, usually by economic strictures. The Palestinians (Arab legion) fought against the British in WWI on the side of the Germans. In WWII, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini forged a military alliance with Adolph Hitler and the Nazis, actually serving as an advisor for the furor in Berlin during the war years; he had wanted to bring the Nazi program of extermination (he actually visited the death camps at Auschwitz) of the Jewish people to Palestine, picking Nablus (Sheckem) as the spot to build an extermination camp.

After siding with the losing side in two separate wars, the Palestinians were lucky to even get such a generous offer from the United Nations, considering the original mandate gave them MORE total area than was partitioned to the Jews.

And finally, Jordan is Palestine 1.0. It was originally apart of the British Palestinian mandate. 2/3rds of it citizens are Palestinian. So they've already been given 80%, plus the west bank and gaza strip would bump that up to 87-88% of the original Palestinian mandate.

edit on 27-6-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 06:24 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 

I'm not sure what you are talking about...The UN Partition plan gave 56%(bigyin was in fact lower in his estimates) of the land for the creation of Israel, and only 43% to the Arabs. And in that 56% of the land, Jews only made up a 55% majority (while the arabs made 99% of the majority in the land allocated to them). So 1/3rd of the population (the jews) got almost 3/5ths of the land.
In no sense can anyone claim this as being in any way "fair".
www.merip.org...
www.mideastweb.org...

Also, "After siding with the losing side in two separate wars"? What on earth is that about? The Ottoman Empire was with the Germans in WWI, yes, but the Arab Revolt fought against the Central powers, on the side of the Allies.
And your claim that Palestine sided with the Germans in WWII is based off "The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem forged a military alliance with Germany and was an adviser to the furor(sic)"?!
Amin al-Husseini was Grand Mufti from 1921 to 1937. Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is certainly not a political role, heck, it means nothing more than being in charge of the Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem. Besides, he held no such title during the War, in fact, he had no political leadership role at all in any representation of Palestine or the Palestinian people (except a short lived political party he started with almost zero support, before he left it when he ran away, and then it was banned by most other Arab countries and ignored by the Palestinians).

And you say he forged a "military alliance" with and was an adviser to Adolf Hitler and the Nazis
?! Which military alliance did he forge? How many Palestinian soldiers did he provide to the Nazis? How much equipment did he provide to the Nazis? How many soldiers did the Nazis provide to him? Or perhaps some equipment to the Palestinians? Maybe they provided training to Palestinian soldiers? Maybe the Nazis sent a small battalion to assist them against the British? Or did he send some Palestinian soldiers to help Germany? Military alliance
. Whatever role he played in Germany (mostly as an ineffectual war propagandist and recruiter for the arabs in Germany and the Balkans), he certainly wasn't representing Palestine, and was only sticking around because he hoped the Nazis would give him a leadership position in Palestine after the war. So no, Palestine didn't "side with Germany" in WWII, just as the USA didn't "side with Germany" because of Henry Ford. It really is pathetic how regularly detractors of the Palestinian cause trot out Amin al-Husseini in an attempt to do "You can't be on their side, they were with the Nazis and Hitler! Are you with Hitler?!".


Having said all that, I am not disagreeable to the idea of a one-state solution, although probably not using the method you have outlined. The problem, however, is that as many Israeli politicians have said, while they may be a "Jewish Democratic State" (whatever that means), they'd rather give up the "Democratic" part if the "Jewish" part comes into question. Even with you, one can easily see the thought-process behind the idea ("Jews now outnumber the Palestinians, so annexing the West Bank can be done safely!"). I am curious what you (or others with similar ideas) would plan to do if this majority was ever threatened.

My idea of a One State solution would be a TRULY democratic country, with no caveats, ruled by a triad, with one of the three members being Jewish, and one being Arab.



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by pavil
 





Till both sides are willing to let the other live in peace in secure borders, free from attack, there will not be peace.


Its like talking to a wall.

Both Hamas and Fatah - the two groups making up the Palestinian Authority, refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Jewish state. Alright? Do you think I'm lying or something???

In 2000, as tirelessly reiterated time and again in this thread,b Ehud Barak offerred a package to Yasser Arafat - leader of Fatah and the PA - which he rejected. That package would have given the Palestinians their state in 97% of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. East Jerusalem as their capital and 30 billion dollars of reparations for Palestinian refugees. Did he accept it, or reject it? As usual, and as Abba Eban once said, the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

If it isn't completely clear by now that the Palestinians DO NOT WANT PEACE with a Jewish state in what they believe to be Muslim lands, than it is nothing short of idiotic to pursue this peace plan with an enemy who desires nothing but capitulations and concessions. Also, since they are so obviously opposed to peace with Israel, if such a state was established, what would that accomplish other than giving Palestinians official international recognition and perhaps more support in their continuing campaign to see to it that the Jewish state is destroyed to be replaced by a Muslim state; Also, and this again is a fact, the PA states as one of their goals that when a Palestinian state is established all Jews who didn't live in Palestine before 1948 will be deported. If they are so interested in peace, why do they have such an antisemitic article in their desire to establish a state???

Amazing the double standard. If Israel said Arabs couldn't live in Israel, there would be international condemnation; when Mahmoud Abbas says all Jews who didn't live in Palestine before 1948 would be deported, it's either ignored or sympathetically understood.

P
No!
The Taba Summit was cancelled because they ran out of time! The Israeli elections were coming up and they hadn't completed drafting the agreement! No one rejected. Please do not twist these events to suit your own benefit.
You do not look like you want peace either. Now tell me, in the ordinary Palestinian's perspective, if your house has been taken down, your town rained on by white Phosphorus and everyday living in fear that your family will get slaughtered by a group of Israeli troops, what would you think of the Israelis? That they want to bring peace? That they love you and want you to live alongside them? You are incredibly biased and haven't taken it into both perspectives. All I see in your argument is:
The Palestinians dont want peace! They want all Israelis dead since all palestinians are evil moozlim terrorists! Peace negotiations were rejected! Israel is better peoples and state! israel is victim!



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 





And your claim that Palestine sided with the Germans in WWII is based off "The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem forged a military alliance with Germany and was an adviser to the furor(sic)"?! Amin al-Husseini was Grand Mufti from 1921 to 1937. Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is certainly not a political role, heck, it means nothing more than being in charge of the Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem.


So you're arguing that in Islam, there is a separation between political and religious roles??? That's simply not true. Look to the Islamists - now controlling Iran, Turkey and Egypt - if you think that is not true. If Haj Amin Al-Husseini were a 'mere' religious leader, he would have no business being in Berlin during the war years. And yes, it's common knowledge that he was the mastermind behind the the 1936-1939 Arab revolts against the British as well as the 1929 Hebron and Safed massacres which was designed to frighten the Jews out of their Zionism.



Which military alliance did he forge? How many Palestinian soldiers did he provide to the Nazis?


He worked in the Balkans.


He recruited Muslim volunteers for the German armed forces operating in the Balkans. Beginning in 1941, al-Husseini visited Bosnia, and convinced Muslim leaders that a Muslim S.S. division would be in the interest of Islam. In spite of these and other propaganda efforts, "only half of the expected 20,000 to 25,000 Muslims volunteered'.[159] Al-Husseini was involved in the organization and recruitment of Bosnian Muslims into several divisions of the Waffen SS and other units. The largest was the 13th Handschar division of 21,065 men, which conducted operations against Communist partisans in the Balkans from February 1944



On March 1, 1944, while speaking on Radio Berlin, al-Husseini said: 'Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.'[162][163][164] He was promised the leadership of Palestine after German troops had driven out the British.[165] At the end of the war, he was allowed to flee to Syria as part of an attempt to prevent the alienation of Middle Eastern regimes


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If the British hadn't stopped the Germans, I'm sure he would have built that death camp at Sheckem (certainly in reference to the biblical narrative where the sons of Jacob massacred the sons of hamor) and history would bear testament to his grisly intentions.




The problem, however, is that as many Israeli politicians have said, while they may be a "Jewish Democratic State" (whatever that means)


What do you mean "what does that mean"?? Democracy doesn't safeguard communal rights, but individual rights. A Muslim citizen of Israel would have the same individual rights as the Jew. As an Arab apart of a minority, he would be accorded minority representation.

Of course, the Arab citizen of Israel would understandably need a different sense of national identity, sort of akin to the Quebecois in Canada.



("Jews now outnumber the Palestinians, so annexing the West Bank can be done safely!").


There's no such thing as a pure democracy, first of all. Second of all, saying Israel should be Jewish is no different from Syria, Egypt etc being an "Arab". At no point would they ever allow a minority to grow and change the essential national identity of their country (and unlike Israel, they make no real effort to protect the individual rights of their minorities), so why should Israel be treated differently? Don't you think the French would be offended if Muslims grew to become a majority (they currently make up 10% of their population) and changed the Frenchness of their national identity?

National identity is perfectly defensible, and there is no reason on earth why there can't be a "middle way" between national identity and democracy.
edit on 29-6-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by RimDaas
 





The Taba Summit was cancelled because they ran out of time! The Israeli elections were coming up and they hadn't completed drafting the agreement! No one rejected. Please do not twist these events to suit your own benefit.


What!!? Where the hell do you get such nonsense?? What do you mean 'run out of time"???

What kind of illogical nonsense is that??! If everything on the Palestinian wishlist was met - except the insidious so-called 'right of return' - how can you claim 'we ran out of time'?? An election does not prevent a quick "OK!" If the party being offered the peace is actually interested in it.

The claim that time ran out because of Israeli elections is untenable because Barak had offered the Palestinians everything they demanded (aside from teh right of return) and it was only the issue of the right of return which created the impasse; claiming the Israeli elections as the reasons is hogwash. The PA still wants 4 million so-called "refugees" to return to a land they have never stepped foot in. They are the only "refugees" who do not lose that status, whose status becomes inherited and grows the longer the refugee "crisis" continues.

The UN gives TWO different definitions for refugee, one for everyone not palestinian, and then the palestinians have their own (which amazingly accords refugee status to anyone who lived in Israel for a mere 2 year and left for WHATEVER reasons) and no one seems to find that suspicious.




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