Is Death An Illusion? Evidence Suggests Death Isn’t the End

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Not at all. I just generally feel that we all too easily discuss difficult topics without first stating our believes to ourselves and others clearly. Since these topics generally weave duck and dive between own ideas, observable reality, science consensus, meta sciences and philosophy I just feel we have no hope of ever reaching an understanding or indeed learning anything new of one another unless we first lay down a foundation to stand and that we speak from.

See you and me could speak on any topic, use the same words and still disagree because my foundation was different to yours or indeed be agreeing however our interpretation of each others words make it so that we assume many things of the others core belief and focus on that rather than what is actually being said.

Hence I ask the questions above. In any case I love having discussions out of interest for what you believe rather than trying to prove that I know anything. Because frankly I don't.

reply to post by IAmD1


I also love these type of discussions and agree that there are fundamental premises that we each need to set about ourselves to help with understanding each others point of view.

in the end, due to our perspective being limited to our own senses, we can never really understand what another person experiences despite similarities between our reletive positions.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

I found your post rather enlightening. Experiences when the brain is alive just do not count since they can 'easily' be dismissed as the work of the brain. And those when the brain is dead must manifest themselves to the senses and be reproducible. I wish it were so.

If I have any talent it is syntheses or, as I prefer, connecting the dots. My 'evidence' of 'life after death' is IMO overwhelming but totally 'circumstantial' which does not prevail in your court.

My personal experiences are limited to dowsing, deja vu, two people after their having been in deep long term comas (dismissed by your brain under stress claim?) and a few instances of childhood astral projection. Oh yes, and when I am near running water I have to pee! While interesting, they have not convinced me of more than we posses latent/dormant powers/senses. My 'life' after death beliefs are not based upon personal experiences except having been with 3 people during their final hours (again brain under stress?).

Please indulge me and allow me to suggest a 'must read' book, Magic and Mystery in Tibet, from 1932 plus many later editions. The most impressive part IMO was an account of a contingent of British troops (1920's?) who sought shelter from a storm in a large cave shared with some Buddhist monks. The head monk demonstrated his 'talents' including leaving his body and possessing that of an infant. For a period of time you had a monk's body without a soul/spirit, an infant's body possessed by the monk's soul/spirit and a disembodied infant soul/spirit. The Brits queried them as to what would happen if the monk or infant were killed during this time. I do not promote this as gospel, only as plausible. I yearned to, but was regrettably unable to, visit Tibet for personal verification after reading it in the 1960's. Just one of thousands of dots waiting to be connected.

I wish to thank all who have participated in this thread. It has gone well beyond my expectations and I have found it to be very enlightening.

To those whom I did not respond to your demands for evidence which PROVES and that the linked article offers no PROOF, allow me to suggest that you reread the title of the the thread. Evidence (the tests referenced in the link) SUGGESTS. Neither I not Dr. Lanza have made any claim to PROVES/PROOF.

reply to post by oghamxx


great thread!

S&Fed pages ago...

reply to post by kalisdad


Yes exactly. We are also further confused by the fact that everything I say means what you interpret it to mean, and what I the speaker feel they ment is not relevant. The basic premise of conversation is the listener decides what the speakers message is. But mostly we speak as informers rather than communicators, trying to inform other persons of our inner state of being rather than looking to understand the other persons inner state. But that is another topic all together.

I agree on your assessment that if there is life after death then there must be (death) after life and the point of death and point of life are the same. Or is there a stage between the two where it is neither death nor life or both at once?

My understanding in general is everything is one continuum, the now. The now contains all events simultaneously, but our physical composition makes it so that we can only measure what we detect hence destinctions are made between now and now (at another point in time). Death and life is one such distinction. In the physical sense there is life (emergence) of one distinct and separate moving entity that can then un-merge i.e go back to being non distinct and un moving as an entity (dead). By that definition there is no life after death.

However if you look a little deeper into the problem of life death and after death and after life is that nothing that is here can un exist everything just changes from one form to another in constant transition. And by that definition there is no death.

Are there any part(s) that is not the 'body' that can store memories accumulated in a body, hold personality information and make deductions? If the answer is yes then we are on to the idea of life after death. If it is no, then our life ends with the body.

Who am I? I Am
When did my life begin? The moment I died.

Originally posted by IAmD1
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Not at all. I just generally feel that we all too easily discuss difficult topics without first stating our believes to ourselves and others clearly. Since these topics generally weave duck and dive between own ideas, observable reality, science consensus, meta sciences and philosophy I just feel we have no hope of ever reaching an understanding or indeed learning anything new of one another unless we first lay down a foundation to stand and that we speak from.

See you and me could speak on any topic, use the same words and still disagree because my foundation was different to yours or indeed be agreeing however our interpretation of each others words make it so that we assume many things of the others core belief and focus on that rather than what is actually being said.

Hence I ask the questions above. In any case I love having discussions out of interest for what you believe rather than trying to prove that I know anything. Because frankly I don't.

I don't know anything either. We are attempting to poke holes in ideas to see if they float. In my opinion, if they sink, they should be disregarded.

About my foundation, I choose to remain ambiguous on the matter; not out of disrespect, but out of love of creativity. I want others to assume and create their own me in their minds. I am just words on a computer screen on these boards.

Instead, how about a thought experiment?

Let's assume that we both have no foundation, and we lack any idea as to what happens after death. We've never heard of heaven or reincarnation or any other metaphysical dimension where our energy might reside after death. Then we come across a body of our friend on the side of the path.

Would it be safe to assume that if a body died, and continued to decompose into the ground where it laid, that the grass, the bacteria, the bugs, the surrounding environment and anything that constitutes life will somehow inherit that energy? Thus wouldn't life not be dying but regenerating and living? I think from this I can conclude that life in fact never dies, so there is no need for an afterlife.

But what about his personality or the general qualia of our friend's presence? Does it persist after death? It does. I can picture him in my mind. I can make him talk to me in my head. He exists as a memory. And when everyone forgets about him, he will no longer persist after death.

What would you propose from this little thought experiment?

Originally posted by oghamxx

Please indulge me and allow me to suggest a 'must read' book, Magic and Mystery in Tibet, from 1932 plus many later editions. The most impressive part IMO was an account of a contingent of British troops (1920's?) who sought shelter from a storm in a large cave shared with some Buddhist monks. The head monk demonstrated his 'talents' including leaving his body and possessing that of an infant. For a period of time you had a monk's body without a soul/spirit, an infant's body possessed by the monk's soul/spirit and a disembodied infant soul/spirit. The Brits queried them as to what would happen if the monk or infant were killed during this time. I do not promote this as gospel, only as plausible. I yearned to, but was regrettably unable to, visit Tibet for personal verification after reading it in the 1960's. Just one of thousands of dots waiting to be connected.

Thank you for the great discussion.

I will read this book. It sounds very interesting.

You should read A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge by Berkely. It's a great read for an idealist. And then of course read the criticisms.

The book '___': The Spirit Molecule is a good read. It is interesting because people under the influence of '___' tend to see alien beings that they interact with and seem entirely real and functional as their own entity. '___' is endogenous to humans and many plants and animals, which means it naturally occurs within these life forms, and it has been thought to be the cause of all unexplained phenomenon such as ghost sightings, alien abductions, etc...etc.

Originally posted by andrewh7

Originally posted by Balkan

That said, your memories, feelings, fears, loves, all of that, is programmed in neuron pathways and synapses in your brain. That part, indeed, dies.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I am a skeptic, but I've seen some compelling evidence for reincarnation. For myself, I had some strange dreams when I was a young child with adult-like emotional content and experiences I'm not so sure I could have imagined at that age. I also find the phenomena of dreaming/intuitions of loved ones after they have died (within hours/days) to be too common to be coincidence. Again, I've experienced this myself, and it was very intriguing. Do I believe in an afterlife? Souls? Reincarnation? I can't say for certain one way or the other. But I think there is interesting and compelling evidence that something of the consciousness does indeed hang around somehow/someway after the brain has ceased to function.

I have seen some compelling evidence that brain damage affects personality, cognitive reasoning, and memory. Your brain is an organic computer. If I shoot my desktop pc, it will stop working properly. You damage components of your brain, it also won't work properly. If you're claiming your consciousness is independent of your brain, then brain damage shouldn't have any effect whatsoever.

the subjectiveness of awareness does not change though. The pc doesn't operate own it's own. Certain aspects of the mind can be broken, but not the most fundamental which is pure unfiltered consciousness which im guessing is the pure subjectivity

Originally posted by oghamxx
I wish to thank all who have participated in this thread. It has gone well beyond my expectations and I have found it to be very enlightening.

To those whom I did not respond to your demands for evidence which PROVES and that the linked article offers no PROOF, allow me to suggest that you reread the title of the the thread. Evidence (the tests referenced in the link) SUGGESTS. Neither I not Dr. Lanza have made any claim to PROVES/PROOF.

The article is interesting, it gives more weight to multi universe and multi dimension theories, both of which I believe contain truths.

I also believe that death isn't the end per se.

However, I do think the thread title is misleading, it doesn't show evidence of life after death. Perhaps a title of Research Article on Biocentrism claims ''death isn't the end'' or something more realistic to the thread content. At least mentioning the article in the thread title should be a prequisite for posting articles as threads. Copy and pasting article subtitles as a thread title is dubious unless a reference to the article and content explains the context.

To some this could sound pedantic, but it isn't. There are too many misleading thread titles that I and lots of others ignore them, or open, read first post, realise it isn't as title suggests then ignore the thread. Like buying a pack of flour and getting home to find onions inside, the shop's excuse being ''but it's ok onions are good.'' Basically, if it's flour inside call it flour, if it's onions call it onions. Anyone could post anything, like Aliens fried my shoes as a thread title from some sensationalist website and saying ''it's ok I didn't say they did it, the article said it''. A more appropriate title would be Sensationalist website reports ''aliens fried my shoes''. Even just using correct quotations to show it is a quote rather than your opinion would be more appropriate.

Misleading titles aren't helping ATS, just attempts at insulting people's intelligence using dubious sales techniques, presumably for the purpose of attention seeking rather than giving something truthful and worthwhile.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


I am not very 'creative' and resort to cut and paste. Were I posting it today I would title it 'Experiments suggest...' those being the experiments mentioned in the article.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Thank you and I will read the treatise.

My interests lie more in non drug awakening of latent/dormant senses but I really suck at meditation, chants, recalling dreams; etc.

More dots awaiting. Christ is alleged to have risen in 3 days. George Washington is alleged to have stated he was not to be buried until he had been dead for 3 days. Buddhist's, at least Tibetan, pay homage to their dead for 3 days before burial. An esoteric belief is that the soul lingers near and/or is still attached to the body by a 'silver thread', for 3 days. Of course this flies in the face of 'follow the light'.

The Mayans, whom I researched at length in the 70's, would throw people in to large 'inescapable' wells, called cenotes, The few who survived their near drowning were believed to have visited with the gods/after world and were queried for messages.

So many interesting mysteries, so little time!

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


This is just one story of many I experienced regarding death of a loved one. Death is the spirit leaving the body. Its a transition.

My Grandfather thought as you. He used to tell me over and over again that when we die, we go back to the ground and become dust. Lol what he didnt realize at the time is that dust is alive.

Nearing his end days on Earth I had two weeks to whisper in his ear about how cool it will be when he leaves Earth. I asked him to follow the light, told him his parents and other loved ones such as his brother would be waiting for him, and asked him to please come to me in my dreams and keep me posted on how he was and what he was doing. Of course, told him over and over how much I loved him. I didnt leave his house those two weeks because he was scared he would die alone. I have a big family. We were all at his bed side when he passed.

There were a lot of cool things to happen to me upon death of loved ones.

Papa just so happen to mind me. He came to me within a few months in my dream. It was very vivid, full of color, and full of my Papa telling me how much he loved his new home. He was running again, and wanted me to tell my Grandmother he was even working again. He was happy with his family on the other side and for us not to cry over him because we would see him again soon.

I know myself more than anyone. Could it have been my imagination wanting him to come to me and talk with me? Maybe so. I do not think so though. It had been a couple of months and I was on vacation. Sorry to say, was not thinking of Papa at all. My family and I were having a great time fishing and camping. After the dream, I of course woke up telling everyone, calling family and was so excited he was " ok". That morning I threw a line in the lake hoping to catch a bass. I had just been told no chance of catching one. When I threw the line in I told Papa, getme a bass on this line and lets show them how real women can fish. I immediately felt something on my line and guess what it was? A big ole bass!

I have many stories that are more than coincindence. Experiencing death of loved ones, including a teen ager has made me acknowledge life exists after death. It really is not the end. It is more like a beginning to real life with no veil, senses are no longer limited, and the soul is then free of heavy burdens that weigh us down on Earth. People feel sooooo light and free when they are no longer in the body.

One day when you are taking your last breath you will realize you were wrong. Thanks be to the energy that you really are. It does not cease. It transitions from one form to another. Xoxox

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

This is just one story of many I experienced regarding death of a loved one. Death is the spirit leaving the body. Its a transition.

My Grandfather thought as you. He used to tell me over and over again that when we die, we go back to the ground and become dust. Lol what he didnt realize at the time is that dust is alive.

Nearing his end days on Earth I had two weeks to whisper in his ear about how cool it will be when he leaves Earth. I asked him to follow the light, told him his parents and other loved ones such as his brother would be waiting for him, and asked him to please come to me in my dreams and keep me posted on how he was and what he was doing. Of course, told him over and over how much I loved him. I didnt leave his house those two weeks because he was scared he would die alone. I have a big family. We were all at his bed side when he passed.

There were a lot of cool things to happen to me upon death of loved ones.

Papa just so happen to mind me. He came to me within a few months in my dream. It was very vivid, full of color, and full of my Papa telling me how much he loved his new home. He was running again, and wanted me to tell my Grandmother he was even working again. He was happy with his family on the other side and for us not to cry over him because we would see him again soon.

I know myself more than anyone. Could it have been my imagination wanting him to come to me and talk with me? Maybe so. I do not think so though. It had been a couple of months and I was on vacation. Sorry to say, was not thinking of Papa at all. My family and I were having a great time fishing and camping. After the dream, I of course woke up telling everyone, calling family and was so excited he was " ok". That morning I threw a line in the lake hoping to catch a bass. I had just been told no chance of catching one. When I threw the line in I told Papa, getme a bass on this line and lets show them how real women can fish. I immediately felt something on my line and guess what it was? A big ole bass!

I have many stories that are more than coincindence. Experiencing death of loved ones, including a teen ager has made me acknowledge life exists after death. It really is not the end. It is more like a beginning to real life with no veil, senses are no longer limited, and the soul is then free of heavy burdens that weigh us down on Earth. People feel sooooo light and free when they are no longer in the body.

One day when you are taking your last breath you will realize you were wrong. Thanks be to the energy that you really are. It does not cease. It transitions from one form to another. Xoxox

It is a touching story, but it only proves you put too much profundity on your dreams and coincidences. I don't find anything wrong with that, as most people need to mystify everything in order to live happily—hence this thread. But we should at least, in matters of metaphysics, attempt to apply Occam's razor.

I agree with you that the essence of someone lives on in our dreams and memory. But this is a product of your imagination and not proof of an after-life, simply because ideas don't exist outside of the brain.

I also agree that energy doesn't cease. Like I said it most probably goes into the ground, the vegetation, bugs and anything that constitutes life wherever your corpse may lay. Hence life doesn't die, so no need for an afterlife. One day, when you are on your last breath you will realize you were wrong, but then again, I am not arrogant enough to speak in such absolutes.

Originally posted by oghamxx
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Thank you and I will read the treatise.

My interests lie more in non drug awakening of latent/dormant senses but I really suck at meditation, chants, recalling dreams; etc.

More dots awaiting. Christ is alleged to have risen in 3 days. George Washington is alleged to have stated he was not to be buried until he had been dead for 3 days. Buddhist's, at least Tibetan, pay homage to their dead for 3 days before burial. An esoteric belief is that the soul lingers near and/or is still attached to the body by a 'silver thread', for 3 days. Of course this flies in the face of 'follow the light'.

The Mayans, whom I researched at length in the 70's, would throw people in to large 'inescapable' wells, called cenotes, The few who survived their near drowning were believed to have visited with the gods/after world and were queried for messages.

So many interesting mysteries, so little time!

If you can find any examples outside of a book, story or legend, I would love to hear them.

reply to post by oghamxx
Death is not the End.. Death is not an illusion... Death is not the opposite of Life.. Every Soul Shall Taste Death... That's what Death is !!

There are a lot of opinions being stated as if fact on this thread. There are theories that suggest for some, incarnations are just one life, purely physical, which makes sense for some people's personalities, those that never see further than that which they are told by mainstream etc and refuse to entertain anything otherwise. But really no human will ever know for certain so it's all just opinion.

reply to post by QuantifedInfinity


This right here, is poetry to my ears.

I recently read the following quote in a magazine on an airplane and it stuck with me:
"Religion is for people who believe in hell, spirituality is for those who have been there and back".

Naturally I googled it as soon as I got home only to find that it is a commonly used "slogan" by people attending AA meetings... but I digresss...

Going back to your post, I want to say that I particularly agree with this part

"Losing ones self, ones identity is one of the greatest fears...
... but again, you cannot proceed, nor be able to produce a unique work of art, or function, if you were not able to continue without a heartbeats pause in your reality.. "

To me losing ones identity = hell (on earth).
I've been there and now that I'm back I can honestly say I do have a "bigger" understanding of things.
I do not mean to say that I am better than anyone else or than any religious people, all I know is that I am a better version of my old self and now I am able to share thoughts that I couldn't even "see" before, much less understand.

It's almost like I had one kind of filter through which I processed information before, then I "went away" while still being here, not quite understanding any of the things I understood one minute before, and then I came back with a brand new, bigger filter.

It is awesome!!!!

Hope I was clear enough for someone to understand.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Im not being arrogant. Thats not my nature nor my style.... Good try though. Its just what I know .... My evidence is ALL of my experiences with death of loved ones. I could tell you stories that would blow your mind. Have you lost loved ones? If so, how many and did you experience anything " out of the norm"?

Why assume its my imagination. I know me. My dreams are very telling. Its my way to connect, always has been. Until you experience the awe.... You will not understand. Its ok.... No big deal. Not here to argue with you or anyone for that matter. Just want you to know there is a LIFE.... And this aint it. Lol