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Jesus Christ keeps us saved forever

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posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Dangerous theology and unscriptural?
Yes, like a lot of your posts.

I'd ask Ananias and Saphira about that.
It never says they went to heaven.

Something that was never earned by merit cannot be lost by demerit.
People are saved, according to the New Testament, by a spirit from God which dwells in them to good works. We have that as a gift through belief in Jesus. This same spirit is what raises us from the dead. If that spirit is not in us, due to lack of belief and good works, grieving the spirit to where it has left us, then we do not have the resurrection to eternal life.


Absolutely spot on jmdewey60!


grieving the spirit to where it has left us, then we do not have the resurrection to eternal life.


Yes, that is what I would like to show them...just how ridiculous "once saved, always saved" becomes when it gives freedom for people to do the most terrible things with immunity.

Once they properly define their terms of "believe" "faith" ect....then we'll begin!

It is like they have mental blocks with forgetting all these other things he are meant to do as part of the terms of the new covenant (like 'give our whole lives over to God and His purposes for us' for instance or 'whoever seeks to save his life will lose it and whoever seeks to lose his life for His will will save it')


edit on 2-7-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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Lets use some practical examples. Take any Christian Soldier burred at Arlinton Cemetary and show everyone how he was saved. Other than the little plot of ground, show everyone the ethernal life and all those other great promisses.

Try demonstrating with JFK as a good place to start.

Whirlwinds of words don't cut the mustard, pick any at Arlington and get their opinions on the promisses.

I want to see the satifaction survey for the promissed good from those served.

Guess the dead don't speak do they.....
edit on 2-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: False Prophets, fake indulgences, and other smoke and mirrors



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 


Redemption of the flesh is called "glorification" and doesn't happen until the resurrection. We are discussing eternal life of the spirit/soul of a man, not the resurrection of the flesh.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


"OSAS" doesn't give anyone freedom to do terrible things with immunity. For one, someone who desires to do terrible things most likely was never "once" saved and for two, Paul puts the idea to bed that we can continue to live a life of sin after being born again in Romans. People who have anew nature have no desires to live in gross sin. The spirit changes our wills to align with the will of God. (Philippians 2:13). I can attest to that fact, the things I used to love to do I no longer have a desire to do.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



things most likely was never "once" saved

That is why I am asking for people here to clearly define how and through what various ways one becomes first 'saved'

Then we can begin



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Past tense of "save" implies "justified/justification". Present tense generally refers to "sanctification", and the future tense of save generally refers to "glorification".

"Saved/being saved/will be saved" are all fuzzy English terms dealing with different things. Generally when people speak of saved in the past tense they are speaking of their standing before God in Christ.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by fireyaguns
 


Once saved always saved is BS theology...

So is Semi-Pelagianism JG.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 





Please explain either of you in practical everyday terms: 'faith', 'confess with your mouth Lord Jesus', 'Believe in Him'.


1. Faith: The hope in the fulfillment of Christ's promises.

2. Confession: Confessing one's sins so that they may be forgiven under the covenant of the Lamb.

3. Believe in him: Believe in the salvation he brought, that he is Messiah, in what he has said, his forgiveness, his mercy, his grace, his promises, take him at face value and accept what he has said, keeping HIS commandments, for his commandments are the commandments of Hayah.



Also, what role does baptism play in this....what does it mean to be 'baptized' when you are an infant and you yourself have made no decision to follow God, are you still saved?


Baptism is a physical engagement or action on your faith, a symbol of being dead and buried and being reborn, baptism does not save you, it's like wearing a wedding ring, a physical manifestation of your spiritual commitment. Baptism for babies means nothing, they cannot accept Christ because they do not know and cannot acknowledge doing any wrong. Baptism is also not required, as the thief on the cross who asked Yeshua to remember him when he came into his kingdom, went to paradise that day.



Basically I am asking... what are examples of the sequence of events of the process when one can actually say they are first 'saved'?


You're saved the moment you begin to believe in Yeshua and that he died for your sins. Belief that he died for your sins and a contrite (remorseful/repentant) heart is the bare minimum requirement to be "saved". The woman who had wound or issue that constantly bled was healed by her faith in Yeshua just by touching the hem of his garment. People that cannot speak because they are mute cannot mouth the words, would they be damned? The answer is no, because YHWH/Yeshua reads your hearts and thoughts.




I am seeking to follow all that God commanded not only because I love God and want to be of service to Him by bringing more people to Him but also because there is a massive and varied degree of heavenly rewards on offer (much much greater variance of the degree of what even kind of earthly honors there are from highest to lowest) and I have a goal of being worthy to be included in the 144,000 group.


I have no lofty goals. I would be satisfied seeing his Glory even from afar at the end of the banquet table, the only reward i care for is just being able to fall at his feet, even if i couldn't say a word. In all the universe, just being at his feet would be enough. Sitting at his right or left, i don't care i just want to be where he is. Whatever road he leads me down, to whatever end either as a martyr, or prophet, healer or preacher, whatever he asks.

He who would be first shall be last, he who is last shall be first.

Matthew 20:20-28

20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

21 “What is it you want?” he asked.

She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”

“We can,” they answered.

23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Um, the Holy Spirit doesn't depart from a New Covenant believer. That was Old Covenant ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
". . . may give way to sin, and so grieve this Holy Spirit that it shall withdraw both its light and presence; and, in proportion as it withdraws, then hardness and darkness take place; and, what is still worse, a state of insensibility is the consequence; for the darkness prevents the fallen state from being seen, and the hardness prevents it from being felt."

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
"Provoke not the holy, blessed Spirit of God to withdraw his presence and his gracious influences. The body will be redeemed from the power of the grave at the resurrection day. Wherever that blessed Spirit dwells as a Sanctifier, he is the earnest of all the joys and glories of that redemption day; and we should be undone, should God take away his Holy Spirit from us."

Pick up any random book on Systematic Theology. Justified/Justification is a legal term describing the believer's standing before God based upon Christ's completed work on the cross.
Maybe in books from your "The New Orthodoxy" cult, where they made a new Christianity to subvert traditional Christianity, to fit in with its Rapture Scenario.

Lazarus is still alive in the flesh? No, Christ didn't demonstrate the eternal life of the flesh with Lazarus. His flesh is long decomposed into dust.
Jesus demonstrated his style of resurrection with Lazarus. At the end of John, Jesus is asked, "What about this disciple" and he replied, "What is it to you if he lives till I come?", so you can't say that he died with any sort of surety. There were a bunch of people who came out of their graves when Jesus was resurrected. They would have gone with him when he ascended from the Mount of Olives.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Glad to see you are quoting Matthew Henry now. A year ago you mocked him as a good source for commentary when I mentioned his works.
And I never said a person couldn't grieve the Holy Spirit, we are clearly admonished not to do that. To either quench His ministry or to grieve Him.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Redemption of the flesh is called "glorification" and doesn't happen until the resurrection.
So is this all according to a blog that a member of your cult maintains?

We are discussing eternal life of the spirit/soul of a man, not the resurrection of the flesh.
Then you are talking about a hypothetical "salvation".



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You realize most Christians don't believe in soul sleep doctrine correct? Even if we never received a glorified body the salvation of our soul/spirit would be vital. The body is merely a shell that houses the spirit/soul.


edit on 2-7-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:08 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . . I can attest to that fact . . .

So now you can determine your own salvation, grading yourself on the curve?
I guess it is just everyone else in danger and only your OSAS status that is guaranteed?
This would be laughable if it was not so sad.
Either it works for everyone, or it works for no one.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


We are told to make our calling and election sure. Are you suggesting we shouldn't do that? I mean what am I supposed to say about a completely changed set of desires? Take the humanistic approach and claim I did it myself by trying harder or give credit to the Holy Spirit for changing my will just like the Word of God said would happen? (Philippians 2:13)

I give all the credit and glory to God.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Past tense of "save" implies "justified/justification".

This is nothing but pure fabrication by you since there is no such thing as "saved" in the New Testament but you want to say there is anyway.
Justified is a broad term that can be used to describe someone who has changed to be in conformity with righteousness, and is not necessarily about a one time get out of free card handed out for a guaranteed hypothetical salvation.
Salvation comes on Judgment day after you have lived out your life, either for good or for bad. Being bad, but having your card in hand does not save anyone.
edit on 2-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You're teaching salvation by works. Directly in disregard of Ephesians 2:8-10. Salvation isn't the goal, salvation is the starting gun. We are not saved by our good works, however good works follow genuine salvation.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You realize most Christians don't believe in soul sleep doctrine correct? Even if we never received a glorified body the salvation of our soul/spirit would be vital. The body is merely a shell that houses the spirit/soul.

I suppose this means that you are now a spiritualist.
Christianity believes in the bodily resurrection.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by fireyaguns
 



Security, not fear, produces Godly living. Romans 12:12; 1 Corinthians 6:15.
Loss of salvation is never threatened.

I agree with the your conclusion...
...and your focus on assurance being the result of being 'kept' by the Spirit of Jesus...
...and as the well-spring of Christian behaviour.

I think that alternate views create a paradox...
...because the will of a sinner is not free until they are saved...in the sense that...
...without the initial action of the Spirit there is no freedom of will toward salvation in the first place...
...so having the 'will' to exit a saved state is only possible when a person is saved...
...because to 'will' to not be saved or to become 'unsaved'...
...would be to use you 'free will' (which you only have by virtue of your union with the Spirit)...
...to choose bondage over freedom.

So even if exiting were possible it would be unlikely and improbable even from a human perspective...
...and from a divine perspective you would have to doubt the Lord's ability to keep you.
edit on 2/7/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I give all the credit and glory to God.

There is an old saying:
"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
It looks like you are taking an incremental improvement and dressing it up in fairy dust to make this magical carriage to take you to heaven.
You need to get over this idea that if you are somehow better than you were at some past point, then you have a free ride from this point on.



posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

We are not saved by our good works, however good works follow genuine salvation.

Feel free to quote a Bible verse that says that.
We are to strive to 'make our calling sure' in the sense that we show that we were correctly called, but we can't really make it so. It takes a combined effort, that is the generally accepted Christian view, between whatever amount of free will we have, and the power of the Holy Spirit, but it is an ongoing battle that never stops. We can rest spiritually in assurance, as in feeling a certain peace from Jesus, but it is not a literal peace to where we can now let up and just do whatever 'comes naturally', which is death. Death is 'natural'. You are talking about spiritual death, thinking you have already done enough and now you can just coast into heaven.

edit on 2-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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