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Jesus Christ keeps us saved forever

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posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 04:05 PM
reply to post by fireyaguns

Sorry for the late reply, too many other things going on at the moment and generally I don't like to get in too deeply this kind of theological debate.

I am going to do a hatchet job here and just address things in mostly broad strokes.

From your Ezekiel verses in your first post reply concerning 'iniquity' this would mean 'transgression of God's Divine Law (the 10 Commandments)'. If people who were once saved continue to ignore the voice of the Holy Spirit within them when they are committing sin like worshiping other gods, idol worship, murder, adultery, taking God's name in vain, not sanctifying God's Holy Sabbath-day (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) ect then the Holy Spirit can depart from them and righteousness of God departs. If people think they can become Christians and use it like Hitler as a get out of jail free card to kill as many people as they want then they have another thing coming. God forgives sin but when people who are in Christ don't repent and sincerely seek to turn from their iniquity (transgression again the law) then it is like they are building up a brick wall between them and God. Eventually the voice of the Holy Spirit will be so muted from wrong character/behavioral patterns developed that the Holy Spirit can depart from them, and now they have no conviction of sin (to repent from when they transgress), no Spirit guiding their path for God's service, and no imputed righteousness from God to face Judgement (therefore salvation lost).

At this stage they basically need to be entirely 're-born' again....back at square one....

1. Marriage feast = the 1,000 year kingdom age of Christ on earth.

The Kingdom of God is forever....the 1,000 year period you are referring to is actually up in the Heavenly city (before it comes down up the 'New Earth' to become the 'New Jerusalem' on Earth) where those in the 'Book of lIfe' sought through the judgement records to see why certain people made it into Heaven and others didn't to know that God's Judgments are Just and Merciful ect...
Your passages on abiding in the Vine are good. I guess this correlates with building up a brick wall between you and God (holy Spirit) each time one is disobedient and transgresses the Divine Law of God's kingdom (therefore they are not abiding in the Vine and can be cut off, therefore no once saved always saved).

The Father reserves the right to remove an unfruitful believer to heaven.

Definitely not, this is dangerous theology and totally unscriptural.

You are suggesting that those who are saved, if they start transgressing God's Law after a certain point and not producing goof fruit that God kills them himself (why, so they don't get even more far gone) and then takes them up to heaven (even though we basically all don't go to 'Heaven' until the proper second coming where we are translated up into the sky and the dead in Christ rise from their graves at the same time). Your statement is totally ridiculous I am afraid. If your statement was true then God would have to kill like 80% of Christians on the spot. And he definitely didn't kill the 'Christian' (Roman Catholic) Hitler in good time.

If believers resist the lies of antichrists, and let the Bible truth that they had heard
from the beginning “abide” in them, they would continue to abide in unbroken
fellowship with God the Father and God the Son.

Why would people now care to hear this? You just told them that they still make it to Heaven even if God cuts them from His Vine, there is no penalty at all under your proviso.
The impression that I want to give overall is that Christian's still need to repent and seek forgiveness when they transgress God's Law, that is it. To imply that they never have to and can go and do whatever they want uninhibited is the dangerous message or slippery slope that comes about from teaching once saved always saved.
Yes, this promised to "overcomers", it take a walk to overcome adversity and trials and develop character in this life. It is not for those who "capitulate" into the world. If you read your theology closely that you are espousing it contains numerous massive contradictions (therefore inconsistent and utterly confusing for people, and we don't have a God of confusion) and 'interpretations' that turn out to be totally against major parts of the gospel message ....Better try again methinks...

Or just drop the incorrect, dangerous, inconsistent, contradictory and confusing interpretation entirely
edit on 30-6-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 08:30 PM
Romans 7;14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allowc not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.  16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the bodyd of this death?  25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Holy Bible : King James Version.

If you believe you can loose your salvation you clearly don't have salvation.

You must be thinking your good works keep you saved which is a lie.

Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Romans 10:9-10, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

John 3:15-16, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

posted on Jul, 1 2012 @ 04:26 PM
reply to post by fireyaguns

You must be thinking your good works keep you saved which is a lie.

James 2:14-26

New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Back to the drawing board friend.....If you think that you can be cut off from the vine (separated from God) when Jesus is the one the Father looks upon if He is to see you and accept you into the Book of LIfe, then you are misunderstanding salvation greatly.

If you think it is 'good works' not to raped, murder, steal and covet then that is a messed up way of thinking. If you think it is 'good works' to have only God as your 'god', and not profane Him with idol worship or idle use of His name or revering His Holy day then that is a messed up way of thinking too. It is called loving God and being in harmony with His character...I think you might just find your attitude towards the Divine Law to be in disharmony with those to be in Heaven.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

For someone to have no regard for the Divine Law is to not understand why even we are here on Earth under the rule of Satan.

By your definition of belief alone, now Satan and all the fallen angels are back in Heaven (as they all believe Jesus is God) and the sin problem remains an issue for all of time, and there is no point to the battle between God's everlasting principals and what Satan offers (and where it inevitably leads). That's called turning the gospel on its head based on misunderstanding of scripture (that is when you know your 'interpretation' is missing something and incorrect when your able to let Satan legally back into Heaven).

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands

Matthew 19:17 "...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments"

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning

Isaiah 8:20 to the Law and to the testimony: If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

Lets see if you can argue a way around those clear as crystal statements
edit on 1-7-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 1 2012 @ 05:03 PM
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Matthew 19:17 "...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments"

Matthew was not talking about the Mosaic law or Decalogue, he was talking about Yeshua's commandments, as you should know. I suggest you begin at Matthew chapter 5 where those begin and read on from there. Yeshua said "if you love me you will keep MY commandments".

Matthew 11:28

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Yeshua's yoke is easy and his burden is light as compared to what? Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem addresses the problem of judaisers saying that new christians must obey the mosaic laws. Now i have told you this before and you always seem to ignore it.

Acts 15:8:11

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

What yoke around the necks did the forefathers of the Israelites have that even they could not bear? The old law was the yoke they couldn't bear. No matter how hard they tried they couldn't stop sinning. So a new covenant had to be made, this one not of flesh but Spirit. Yeshua purchased us with his blood as the bride price, his commandments we must keep. Start at Matthew 5 and read.
edit on 1-7-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 1 2012 @ 05:43 PM
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

wait just a second....are you telling me that you never ever pray to God now at any occasion for repentance or forgiveness?

posted on Jul, 1 2012 @ 11:03 PM

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

wait just a second....are you telling me that you never ever pray to God now at any occasion for repentance or forgiveness?

I listen to my conscience, whom Yeshua has become with his laws written in my heart and on my mind.

Jeremiah 31:33-34

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Hebrews 8:16-18

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

This is where the part where Yeshua "sets the captives free" from. We are under his grace and mercy. To obtain forgivenes we must grant forgiveness, to obtain mercy we must grant mercy. Yeshua is our conscience, our guide as his spirit is in us. The only works we must do, is believe in him.

John 6:26-29

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

So simple and so easy, that most people think it is too easy and so they heap upon it more than what it is because in their own minds it is too simple, but this is how it must be, so simple that children can understand and come running to him free of care or worry.

Luke 18:16-17

16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

So easy that children can do it, so simple, yet so hard for adults to accept that it is that easy and that simple and that is the beauty of it, because it is so simple.

edit on 1-7-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:01 AM

Lets see if you can argue a way around those clear as crystal statements

JesuitGarlic, I don't see any point in your above statement that is worthy of dishonouring myself in an attempt to show you your stuck in the OT and sound like a SDA who believes we are to follow the mosaic law BUT for you security in having eternal life I will give you this:
There are basically only two religions in the world today. These represent two different
Idea’s as to how we gain acceptance with God and how we get into heaven. One is right.
The other is wrong. These are:
I. GOOD WORKS. The idea that if I am good enough then God will accept me into

The problems with this view are that:

1. How good do I have to be? Where is the cut off point that determines entry to heaven?

2. If I can get into heaven by my good works, then why did Christ die?

3. How do you judge how much salvation each good work buys you?

4. If we have to earn our salvation, there is always that feeling of guilt, because maybe we
haven't done enough good works to earn salvation.

5. If we are hoping to be saved by our good works, then we could lose our salvation by
not keeping up the good works. This leads to uncertainty. We can never be sure of
going to heaven as long as we trust in our good works.

6. Trusting in our good works leads to fear of missing heaven.

7. It leads to a wrong comparison. People say "I am a good person." They are comparing
themselves with sinful man. We should compare ourselves with God. Then we appear
as big sinners.

8. If we could be saved by our good works then, we could boast. Do you think God would
devise a system of salvation that allowed man to boast?

9. It causes some people to give up trying to be good, so they sin as much as they want.

10. Does "man save man" or does "God save man"?

11. It leads to a religion of self denial to earn salvation. God has given us richly in all things
to enjoy.

edit on 2-7-2012 by fireyaguns because: next post

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:03 AM
Religious man likes to think that his good works can save him because:

1. It keeps people under the control of religious leaders, because people fear that if they
stop coming to church, they will go to hell.

2. People like to feel that they have worked for their salvation and that they deserve it.
They think "I earn everything else in life by hard work, why not my salvation?"

3. Man likes to make the rules himself, and does not like God telling him what to do. Sinful
man does not want God to get the glory for saving him.
99% of the world's religions are religions of good works to earn salvation. Examples include:
Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and Hinduism to name a few.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:04 AM
This begins with the idea that I am a sinner, that I have broken God's laws, and that
compared to God I am not a good person, but a self centred sinner.
God's law that I have broken condemns me to hell. The good news is that Jesus Christ on
the cross had all my sins laid on him, so that Jesus Christ took the full punishment for all my
past, present and future sins that I deserved in hell forever. He thus became the Saviour of
all people. We are now responsible to receive or call on Christ to be our Saviour from sin.
When we do this Christ saves us and gives us the free gift of eternal life.
The benefits of Christ saving us instead of our works saving us are:

1. We can be 100% sure of going to heaven because Christ is 100% responsible for
saving us and for keeping us saved.

2. We can concentrate on serving God in joy, rather than in fear of trying to earn our
entrance ticket to heaven.

3. We know that we will meet our saved loved ones in heaven.

4. We rest in God's acceptance of us because of Christ.

5. It releases us from the bondage of fear of trusting a man made organization to get us
into heaven.

6. It leads us to develop a loving relationship with Christ as our Saviour, Friend and
God, rather than Mary.

7. It leads us to base our beliefs for living on the Bible, not on some man made

Let us study some Bible passages teaching that "good works don't save us".

1. Knowing that a man is:

a) not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ;

b) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of
Christ, and not by the works of the law;

c) for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16.

2. If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21.

3. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2.

4. Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6.

5. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal. 3:7.

6. The scripture foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith. Galatians

7. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Galatians 3:9.

8. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. Galatians 3:10.

9. For it is written, Cursed is everyone that continues not in all things which are written
in the book of the law to do them. Galatians 3:10.

10. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident. Galatians 3:11.

11. The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:11.

12. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.
Galatians 3:13.

13. That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14.

14. If there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should
have been by the law. This teaches that no law gave eternal life. Galatians 3:21.

15. The scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ
might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:22.

16. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up into the faith which should
afterwards be revealed. Galatians 3:23.
This means that we were shut up in the prison of the law until salvation by faith in Christ

17. The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by
faith. Galatians 3:24.

18. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:25.
We are not under the schoolmaster of the Mosaic law.

19. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26.

20. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Galatians 4:21.

21. If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Galatians 5:2.
This means that if you are trusting your circumcision to save you, or your good works, or
your baptism, or your sacraments, or your church to save you, then Christ has not saved
you. You are still lost and going to hell.

22. I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole
law.Galatians 5:3

This means that if you trust your works to save you, then you can only be saved by
always keeping all the whole law, which no one can do. Therefore, those trusting their
works are heading to hell.

23. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law.
Galatians 5:4.

24. the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians 5:5.

25. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith
which worketh by love. Galatians 6:15; 5:6.

26. In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of
promise.Ephesians 1:13

27. For by grace are ye saved through faith;
i) and that not of yourselves;
ii) it is the gift of God:
iii) not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8,9.
Four times we are told here that we are not saved by works, but by faith.

Question: Where then do good works come in?

Answer: Good works come after salvation to show our gratitude to God in love for
saving us.
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God
hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10.
Facts of → Faith in Christ → Salvation → Good Works
Gospel as Saviour after salvation

28. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. Ephesians 3:17.

29. And be found in Christ, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but
that which is of the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
Philippians 3:9.

30. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he
saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5.

31. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by
the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20.

32. The righteousness of God without the law is manifested. Romans 3:21.
(Romans 3:22.

33. The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them
that believe.

34. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
...a propitiation (forgiveness and favour) through faith in his blood, to declare his
righteousness for the remission of sins. Romans 3:24,25.

35. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? NO: but by the law of
faith. Romans 3:27.

36. Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28

37. One God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith,and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom. 3:30

Question: Does salvation by faith and not by works mean that we can go out and sin as
we wish?

A: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom. 3:31
The law is now written on the believer’s heart, so that we obey the law of the Spirit of life
from an inward motivation.

38. If Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:2.

39. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:3.

40. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is
counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5.

41. David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes
righteousness without works. Romans 4:6.

42. Faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned?
When he was in uncircumcision. Romans 4:9,10.

Note: Abraham was saved by faith before he was circumcised. This teaches us that we
are saved by faith before baptism, good works, sacraments or any human work.

43. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus
Christ. Rom. 5:1

Note: Peace with God comes by faith in Christ, not by good works.

44. The Gentiles ..... have attained to righteousness ..... which is of faith. But Israel ..... has
not attained to righteousness. Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but the
works of the law. Romans 9:30-32.

45. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace. Romans 11:6.

Note: If you think you are saved by your own works, then you miss God's grace.

46. Who hath saved us ..... not according to our works. 11 Timothy 1:9.

47. Q: What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
A: Jesus ..... this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John

48. i) He said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 7:50.
ii) When he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Luke
iii) Purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9.
iv) That they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them that are
sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18.
v) Jesus said unto him (Bartimaus), Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. Luke
vi) Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace. Mark 5:34.
vii)To a repentant leper: "thy faith hath made thee whole." Luke 17:19.

49. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him
shall receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43.

50. By him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be
justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39.
Note: If the law of Moses could not justify anybody, how can keeping the laws of the
Catholic Church, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Baptism, sacraments, or good works
justify you?

OBJECTION: Question: "But doesn't James 2:14-26 teach that works save us?" Ans:
No, because:

1. James in 2:10,11 says that even if we have kept the whole law always
showing good works every day, except in one act of sin, we are guilty of in one point, he is guilty of all."

2. Wherever you have true believers, you have counterfeit believers. Eg:Neither
the priest or the Levite who had religious training, helped the dying man.
Matt.7:21, Luke 10:25-37

3. A poor believer, hungry and without proper clothing entered a church. A
person with dead faith saw the visitor in need, yet did nothing to meet his
needs. He just said a few pious words: "Depart in peace; be ye warmed and
filled". James 2:1-5,16.
Note: Each of these four people had dead faith. Each would defend the idea that he
had faith, yet neither demonstrated that faith in loving works.
To help a needy person is an expression of love, and faith works by love. Galatians 5:6.
The question in James 2:14: "Can faith save him?" is alternatively translated: "Can that
kind of faith save him?" What kind of faith? The faith that is never shown by practical
works. The answer is "NO". Any declaration of faith that does not result in a changed
life and good works is a false declaration. That kind of faith is dead faith.
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17.
True saving faith always produces works.God sees our faith in Christ as Saviour, then
he saves us.
Man cannot see faith. Man can only see our works as the fruit of salvation.

Faith is the Godward condition of salvation.

Works is the manward evidence of salvation.

James illustrates his point with two Old Testament characters:

1. Abraham. "Was not Abraham our Father justified by works, when he had offered
Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21.
a) Abraham was justified before God by age 85. "He believed in the Lord; and he
counted it to him for righteousness." Genesis 15:6; 16:16.
b) Abraham was justified before man by age 137, when he offered up Isaac upon
the altar. Genesis 22:1-14.

2. Rahab. "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had
received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" James 2:25.
a) Rahab was justified before God (salvation) when she confessed with her
mouth Jehovah to be God.
"For the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above,and in earth
beneath."Joshua 2:11,1-14
b) Rahab was justified before man (service) when she received and sent the
messengers out another way. "Then she let them down by a cord through the
window." Joshua 2:15,16.


1. Forsake trusting your works to save you, and receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour from
sin today.

2. Leave any church that teaches a gospel of good works for salvation. God's curse is on
such a church or religion. Galatians 1:6-9.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 06:34 AM
Well, lets take you to Arlington National Cemetary and you can tell everyone how Jesus Saved these persons. Better yet, next war, lets put a gun in your hand and ship you out to the war zone and see if you get saved.

Interesting how none of these saved persons are never heard from again.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 12:39 PM
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Dangerous theology and unscriptural? I'd ask Ananias and Saphira about that. Something that was never earned by merit cannot be lost by demerit.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 12:48 PM
Before I do a proper post to Fireyaguns and Lonewolf on your recent posts we need to define some terms first so we are all on the same page of thinking (and that no misunderstandings take place)

I am trying to work out in a practical sense what these terms mean to understand exactly when one can say they are first saved (and therefore always saved from that point on no matter what they do, even if you stop believing in Him because you are ALWAYS saved from that point on).

Please explain either of you in practical everyday terms: 'faith', 'confess with your mouth Lord Jesus', 'Believe in Him'.

- 'For by grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

- confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus(Romans 10:9-10)

- That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:15-16)

Also, what role does baptism play in this....what does it mean to be 'baptized' when you are an infant and you yourself have made no decision to follow God, are you still saved?

Basically I am asking... what are examples of the sequence of events of the process when one can actually say they are first 'saved'?
For the record, I know if I was to die now that I would already would be 'saved', I don't just focus on understanding the absolute bare minimum (and I will point out later that you are misunderstanding it) to 'get in' to Heaven. I am seeking to follow all that God commanded not only because I love God and want to be of service to Him by bringing more people to Him but also because there is a massive and varied degree of heavenly rewards on offer (much much greater variance of the degree of what even kind of earthly honors there are from highest to lowest) and I have a goal of being worthy to be included in the 144,000 group. There are high places in the heavenly offices up for grabs folks, if you want to low-ball it then God might just decide to do with you what he did with the person he gave one talent to in the parable of the talents.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 12:50 PM

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
Well, lets take you to Arlington National Cemetary and you can tell everyone how Jesus Saved these persons. Better yet, next war, lets put a gun in your hand and ship you out to the war zone and see if you get saved.

Interesting how none of these saved persons are never heard from again.

Are you serious? Christ didn't once teach eternal life of the flesh. "Life" is an idiom for being with God for that eternity. "Death" is an idiom for the spirit being separated from God. All life is technically eternal, the demarcation line is either with Father or separated from Him. The soul and spirit both have no mass and because of that they are no bound whatsoever by the nature of time. Only the flesh is.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 12:52 PM
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

They way they are using "saved" would be how the bible uses the term "justified" or "justification".

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:15 PM
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Dangerous theology and unscriptural?
Yes, like a lot of your posts.

I'd ask Ananias and Saphira about that.
It never says they went to heaven.

Something that was never earned by merit cannot be lost by demerit.
People are saved, according to the New Testament, by a spirit from God which dwells in them to good works. We have that as a gift through belief in Jesus. This same spirit is what raises us from the dead. If that spirit is not in us, due to lack of belief and good works, grieving the spirit to where it has left us, then we do not have the resurrection to eternal life.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:19 PM
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Christ didn't once teach eternal life of the flesh.

Not only did Jesus teach life in the flesh, but demonstrated it in action by raising Lazarus from bodily death to bodily life.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:25 PM
reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . they are using "saved" would be how the bible uses the term "justified" . . .

That may be your opinion. I would suggest this is a faulty conclusion that you just picked up from a YouTube video, rather than something you researched and then came to using your own reasoning. Being "saved" would be something known to a person on Judgment Day. Justified can mean also in the New Testament to be changed to where your behavior meets the standard norm of acceptability.

edit on 2-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:48 PM
reply to post by jmdewey60

Um, the Holy Spirit doesn't depart from a New Covenant believer. That was Old Covenant ministry of the Holy Spirit.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:51 PM
reply to post by jmdewey60

Pick up any random book on Systematic Theology. Justified/Justification is a legal term describing the believer's standing before God based upon Christ's completed work on the cross.

posted on Jul, 2 2012 @ 02:54 PM

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Christ didn't once teach eternal life of the flesh.

Not only did Jesus teach life in the flesh, but demonstrated it in action by raising Lazarus from bodily death to bodily life.

Lazarus is still alive in the flesh? No, Christ didn't demonstrate the eternal life of the flesh with Lazarus. His flesh is long decomposed into dust.

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