Why New Agers are "Spiritually Dead" and not "Enlightened"

reply to post by windword

I think that Jesus was telling people that the biblical god of the OT, and the one being represented in the temple by the sadducees and pharisees, was a false god. I think he was teaching of a new god, a, new age god, that resides within us, and can be accessed by each of u

Yes, Jesus did tell them that the god being represented in the temple by the sadducees and pharisees was a false god, but he made it very clear that he represented the same God that brought the Israelites out of Egypt. His teaching wasn't of a "new" god, his teaching was about the Holy Spirit, which came from the same God that he represented.

reply to post by apushforenlightment

Lol. I remeber when I in my mind told god that I would never agree to eternal punishment and would reject god if he was a bully and would not have anything to do with Christianety because of it before I had my moment.

Your statement almost concerns me. From my research, it makes me wonder if "rejecting" God based on our own requirements of him is what could possibly lead to deceptions. Does refusing to accept God for who he is, but who we want him to be open a door wide open for other spirits to enter in? I think this may be a possibility.

Do we have every right to get mad at God? Absolutely. Do we have any right to make demands on him based on our own limited understanding of him? I don't think so. However, like you said, anyone is free to reject him.

This is giving me some new ideas on areas of research. Thanks.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

But this isn't just some story that people are saying is a great epic myth, its a story that people claim is the inerrant and perfect word of God.

The Bible is also a book with many of the same stories told two, three, four times over again, and probably just for that purpose. To prove that the message itself never changes. It is inspired by God.

As for what you consider to be contradictions between a harsh and judgmental God versus a loving and merciful God, I think God is most capable of being both. The Old Testament shows his judgmental side, while the New Testament focuses on his merciful side.

As far as your mention of slaves and how to handle them, this was the culture of the people at that time. God never tried to change their culture as he knew this would be too disruptive for them. It wasn't God's idea that these people perform sacrifices either, but he knew it was the only way of life and worship that they knew, so he worked with them. God set guidelines in place for their way of life without totally dismantling it. God's not going to override free will on how a culture is set, unless it turns evil.

Hi,

I normally read posts but don’t respond as I am more of a learner than a teacher... in this particular matter I however wish to convey my thoughts on this subject as I am certain it will help someone, including the OP
I am a Christian, Love the Lord with all my heart. Fully understand that HE is the way the Truth and the Life. I believe that He paid a price for my Salvation that thru His sacrifice, I am Saved.

Firstly, to the OP: I am saddened by the way you choose to Minister to these folks on ATS. Most folks here are NOT your normal Sheeple kind of people, but on a quest for a higher understanding of everything that is. The TURN or BURN mentality that we (Christian Folk) held to does nothing to win over those that we perceive has lost and needing Christ. Jesus declared that he came for the lost, the sinner… remember Jesus did not have a problem with the Tax collectors even… He had a problem with the Pharisee and Sadducee who chose to constantly “lord” over the masses with their Laws and rules and traditions. The LAW said to do nothing, but Jesus, because he understood GRACE knew that he had to minister healing. If you were there OP… would you be crying at the Cross of Jesus when he died, or would you be holding a hammer in your hand saying “crucify Him” for he does not even hold the Law of Moses? OP, although I don’t know you, I Love you with the Love of Christ. As I love everyone here that actually wants to find some truth in this world of corruption.

Let’s talk about what it means to be a Christian to start with. Firstly Christ means Anointed one. So therefore by me calling myself a Christian I am outwardly professing my intent to also be an Anointed one. I am not going to be quoting scripture as I think that there has been enough of Scripture quoted thus far. What we do understand by being a Christian is that only the Holy Spirit can change the heart of man. Salvation alone belongs to our God.
In trying to make a point as to why someone’s belief is incorrect leaves no room for those that are in darkness to see the light. You shall know them by their fruit. It is with a showing mentality that we approach those that need Christ – The Anointing – The Holy Spirit. We cannot TELL or Force, we can show Love, and let that Love plant a seed that the Holy Spirit can use to bring into the Light those that are in darkness.
For those who disagree with my statements above, I humbly ask that you respect my point of view. I do not wish to force “a way of thinking”” down your throat. I am not looking for approval or disapproval either.

cont....

To continue: a little deeper.

I have been a Christian most all my life, studied Theology at our local bible school, am actively involved in Church, Cast out demons by the power and enablement of the Holy Spirit… witnessed first-hand demons fearing the blood of Jesus Christ. With all that said, I have come to a point where I believe that something is missing… or the story is kind of not adding up. Here begins my journey for TRUTH. As I now believe that each one of us needs to work out our OWN salvation... Let NO man judge, lest he be judged. So... I first decided to pick up on an old topic from Bible school called CANON of scripture… which basically try’s to package neatly that the BIBLE we see today is the ONLY inspired word of God. No personally, at the place I am... I find that very hard to digest. As it would mean that the Holy Spirit has stopped talking to humanity... or that everything that the Holy Spirit needed to say has already been said. I for a fact know that the Prophetic Voice is needed in our lives now. So we need to lay open the fact that God, thru the working of the Holy Spirit is guiding men and women right now… but due to us putting man’s ideology – the constructed BIBLE before any wise understanding of the voice of the Holy Spirit, we are unable to move forward.

I, like Paul, would say that ALL scripture is good for teaching. We need to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is presently revealing so much to people like Joseph Prince, who understand what Grace of our Lord means, and helping people understand that Grace does not equal a life of “sin” or hap-hazard living.

In so far as searching for the Truth goes and my personal Journey… what I have discovered is that there is a lot of information to sort out... that will aid one in deconstructing the contrusts that we have been programmed with… However, where someone says that they are become awakened thru Gnosis or knowledge of things… I would say that our “mind” cannot save us, our Spirit can. Only the Spirit can give life. When Jesus met the lady at the well, he said to her that a time is coming that TRUE worshipper will arise… and they will worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I believe that what Christ spoke of then is coming to pass now... As having knowledge to deconstruct the “law” and nonsense the world constantly throws at us is the first part of the puzzle. The second is drawing close to the Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit and allowing our Spirit (which has nothing to do with intellect) to connect with Him.

To close: Jesus did pay for your Salvation… it is FREE. YOU, dear friend have to accept it as done. It is like a present waiting for you in heaven, all YOU need to do is lay claim to it. I am not saying that my way is right… I am saying though, If YOU are right then the whole world has nothing to worry about. But if Jesus is right and all it takes is for you to accept this GRACE gift in love, what do you lose by not accepting?? Everything!

Jesus is what you call a sure bet.... its a WIN / WIN situation.... all done in LOVE!

My post is issued with ALL the Love that Christ allows in me.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

I became a Christian using critical thinking not avoiding it.

Based on what I've read of you on ATS (quite a bit, that is), you refer to a different kind of "critical thinking", friend.

I'm talking about being able to research a matter OBJECTIVELY, and thoroughly, from many angles, and then deciding which makes the most sense. (Not accepting something born of emergency, or disaster, or catastrophe, or deepest despair.)

Your version of "critical thinking" seems to be to criticize everyone around you who doesn't agree with your narrow-minded zeal. Or that being afraid is the only way to go. Sad, really. And your avatar is anything but pleasant. I don't know what "happened" to you -- or what you perhaps witnessed or were victimized by --- or how empty your soul felt before you adopted this crippling, horrible doctrine....but I'm sorry for it. You're much too hard on yourself, and push others away with your vicious preaching. No one wants to hear it....we are all seeking, some of us think we've found a reasonable and comforting answer, but we won't really know until our time comes.

What the answer is for you is for you alone. It is arrogant and imprudent to impose your youthful opinions onto other people who have traveled (and continue to travel) a different road. You must suffer a lot being so hard on everyone and feeling so important.

Thing is, everyone is unique, and therefore it is ludicrous to think that there is one RIGHT way for EVERYONE. We all have different points of view, experiences, and environments.

One day you'll understand, though. You have a long way to go. I only hope, for your sake, that you lighten up sometime soon, lest you have a stroke trying to convince the world of your holy righteousness. It really is a drag.

reply to post by Deetermined

To prove that the message itself never changes. It is inspired by God.

Then God must be a moron, because he portrays himself as killer of masses of innocent people, condones slavery, thinks that working on a Saturday should get you stoned to death, etc. He's his own worst PR Agent.

I think God is most capable of being both

Well then God is no better than, say, Hitler (Godwin's law officially invoked). Hitler, I'm sure, showed mercy on numerous occasions, but he also wanted Jews exterminated. The God of the Bible showed mercy on occasion, but he also wanted the ancient Jews to exterminate a whole lot of people.

The Old Testament shows his judgmental side, while the New Testament focuses on his merciful side.

Hell isn't really mentioned in the Old Testament, but it is the new testament. It is actually the new testament that hints at the Lake of Fire and Hell/Gehenna and depending on your interpretation going to Hell could either be eternal torment in a burning lake or mere annihilation of both soul and body (the Bible is self-contradictory and vague as to which answer is right). Also the New Testament has Revelations, a book where God smites the majority of human beings with horrific deaths before damning them according to this criteria:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

This is Revelation 21:8, in which atheists and magicians and liars are all burnt in a Lake of Fire. Yes the New Testament, really showing off God's merciful side

It wasn't God's idea that these people perform sacrifices either

Wrong answer

The Bible is replete with verses about sacrifice and how pleasing it is to the Lord. Even in the New Testament it is suggested that those who tithe in secret will be rewarded in secret by God. Go and re-read Leviticus 1:

1 The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting. He said, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.

It is meant to be direct from the mouth of God and he has some pretty graphic ideas of what he wants sacrificed to him and how.

God's not going to override free will on how a culture is set, unless it turns evil.

Keeping slaves isn't evil? What about stoning women to death simply for cheating on their husbands. What about brutally murdering those who attempt to spread other religions? What about killing those who work on the Sabbath or executing a woman who is discovered to not be a virgin on her wedding night? Is putting rebellious children to death not evil? Because all of that is mandated by Old Testament law.

By the way the keeping of slaves wasn't merely a cultural thing, go read Exodus 21. God sets up slavery directly.

reply to post by windword


It is possible that Jesus was referring to what has been loosely dubbed the Demi-Urge. It's hard to say really because in at least one Gospel Jesus directly defends the barbaric Mosaic Law of the Old Testament claiming that any who follow the commandments will be great in the kingdom. It may be that the figure the Gospels are based on, presuming he actual existed, was exactly as you describe and that his message was muddled after his death.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

.. woah to them [who think they know and preach it using fear]?

*grins*
You mean, "whoa" to them? Yes, by all means. WHOA!
Or do you mean "woe" to them? Yes, that too.

reply to post by Deetermined

Do we have every right to get mad at God? Absolutely. Do we have any right to make demands on him based on our own limited understanding of him? I don't think so. However, like you said, anyone is free to reject him

No we don't have a right to get mad at YHWH, what people do not understand is that he works for the greater good. We only see the present or past but he is looking far into the future. We only catch glimpses of the story, he is looking at the finished and published edition. They also do not understand that the OT God is pre-incarnate Christ, before his human sojourn. He says it himself.

John 5: 31-47

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Moses wrote the Torah, the first 5 "books" of the hebrew bible. So, who walked with Adam in the cool of the Day? Who killed the animal and made skins to clothe the "naked" progenitors? Who taught Adam how to pray and repent? Who showed Abraham what he and his descendants would inherit? Who did Sarah laugh at when he told her she would have a son in her old age? Who talked with Abraham at his tent the day he sent the 2 angels to Sodom to warn Lot? Who gave the decalogue to Moses at Mt. Sinai? Who put Moses in a cleft before he showed him his back and his Glory?

He is the same that came in man's flesh and was hanged on the cross, the light of the world, as he purchased Israel with the old covenant, so too did he purchase us all with his blood in his new covenant. We could not see his face, so he gave us a face we could see.

John 14:7-11

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

John 1:16-18

16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

So if no one had ever seen the Father, only the Son which has declared him? Later on Jesus tells Thomas and Philip if they have seen him they have seen the Father.

No one had seen the Father, they didn't know him until Jesus declared him. How did Jesus declare him? With his works.

John 8: 56-58

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

reply to post by wildtimes

Well said Wildtimes. I remember my days of "fire and brimstone", and black and white. I wasn't so different from RG in my early days. I am genuinely ashamed of those days, and all the people I witnessed to. But then, that's one of the reasons I share what I know here. To help others who aren't Christian understand the mindset of Christianity, and it's doctrines.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Based on your comments and the current world we're living in, I guess you reject all of life as we've ever known it throughout history, therefore, you reject the notion of God existing at all (and have claimed such). Or did I misunderstand?

So, out of curiosity, what interest does this thread hold for you?

reply to post by SoulFinder

The second is drawing close to the Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit and allowing our Spirit (which has nothing to do with intellect) to connect with Him.

I think the people in this thread would be interested in hearing what you personally do in order to connect with the Holy Spirit and describe how it might be different from other spirits. What ritual, prayers, etc do you use in casting out demons? What have you learned about these demons? Can you share any stories?

reply to post by Klassified

But then, that's one of the reasons I share what I know here. To help others who aren't Christian understand the mindset of Christianity, and it's doctrines.

An invaluable service, sir. I salute you for your efforts. You have a way of explaining things about this type of "Christian" that makes it easier to stomach.

It does seem to me, based on my background, that the type of Christians who shout at others and try to bully them into "believing", are suffering from an intense neurosis or an inner conflict that is excruciating for them. They don't seem able to realize that not everyone (in fact no one) can truly experience what they did (or what they do), and that others are capable of being calm and comfortable enough to live with peace of mind without buying into the frantic threats of eternal damnation.

I see a big difference between people who were brought up in actively religious homes (no matter what religion) and have since drifted away from it (outgrown it) to find for themselves the answers that resonate within their souls, and those who had no religious exposure of any kind and in the throes of growing pains via adolescence (whether they have those experiences during physical biological adolescence, or later in life because of stunted development) "discovered Christ."

It seems very akin to an anxiety disorder. For example, a person with germophobia becomes horrified, maybe even hysterical, if they see someone who is not worried about germs pick up a dropped cookie from the floor, blow on it once and then eat it...while the person enjoying the cookie simply shrugs and says, "Meh. It's okay. There's dirt everywhere, you are covered with invisible microbes and bacteria that no amount of showering will wash away. Relax." (I suffered from that malady for a while in my 20s -- I know exactly how it feels. I got help for it, and through hard work learned to overcome it. Now, I look back and shake my head....but that is the learning process).

Once relieved of that anxiety, one can recognize it in others. My husband is mildly germophobic...worried about food spoilage, will only drink out of a glass of water one time, while I keep the same glass near the sink for a few days at a time. I also worked with a germophobe (full-blown OCD sufferer) at a major convention hotel, who would become visibly nervous, fearful, to the point of using only the tip of one finger to work the keyboard, and after handling money or credit cards would have to be excused to go wash her hands.

The trick is to actively notice that people who are not obsessive and acutely afraid of germs do just fine; the person who ate the cookie dropped on the floor for a couple of seconds doesn't drop dead. People who eat without scrubbing their hands raw do not expire within moments. I use the same glass to rinse my mouth after brushing for a week, and I'm perfectly fine. I know my colleague felt she was saving us all from a gnarly death by Lysoling everything in sight....but on her days off, no one bothered, and no one got sick. (This is not to say, of course, that if someone obviously has a cold it is prudent to wash one's hands before touching one's mouth or eyes, etc. But even then, one may have immunity to the bug being spread...as we get older, we get sick less and less, having been exposed to those bugs before and surviving.)

The anxiety is far more destructive than the action. And those who feel they need to daily "spread the Good word", relentlessly "warning" everyone else, carry a large, self-imposed burden. Truly, it must be hard. To awaken every morning and feel compelled to "save" or "convert" others must be exhausting.

reply to post by Deetermined


I do reject the idea of the Biblical God, and all gods that human beings have defined over the centuries.

There may be gods out there somewhere in the Universe for all I know, and there are plenty of nebulous deities that can never be disproved (the Deistic God, for one, is unfalsifiable). There's simply no good evidence in favor of a god existing and thus I don't believe there are any gods, though I leave some room for the remote possibility.

So, out of curiosity, what interest does this thread hold for you?

Well the first thing that drew me here was the use of the words New Age. New Age beliefs are a subject I am interested in precisely because of how much of a hodge-podge of different beliefs they can be. A New Ager can accept Crystals, alien entities, channeling spirits, Jesus and reincarnation and apparently not suffer the slightest cognitive dissonance, that alone is quite interesting. New Age is essentially the "pick-your-own-adventure-book" of religions.

Of course the thread turned out to be just some Christian pretending his death cult is somehow so much more enlightened than New Age beliefs. As a former Christian and someone who knows a decent amount about Christian beliefs and scripture naturally I responded.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by SoulFinder

 

The second is drawing close to the Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit and allowing our Spirit (which has nothing to do with intellect) to connect with Him.

I think the people in this thread would be interested in hearing what you personally do in order to connect with the Holy Spirit and describe how it might be different from other spirits. What ritual, prayers, etc do you use in casting out demons? What have you learned about these demons? Can you share any stories?

Well, I grew up in a Christian home, where my Parents where previously from very strong in another faith (I choose not to state this fate as my intent is not to offend).. Well, my mum got very sick and nothing she did worked, doctors, other types of prayers etc... nothing.

Eventually, there was a group of Radical Jesus believing, Born Again men who where invited to pray... My mother, then manifested with a few demonic powers and had to be delivered from them... The next day, my parents, together with everyone who witnessed what had happened that night thru out everything and become absolutely Christian Radicals. That spawned my father, together with his brother enlisting in Bible school and becoming Ministers. -- All of this happened like 38 years ago.

So I basically grew up in church (very radical at the time).. and there was almost always some sort of manifestation at church that needed to be dealt with. There was NO ritual involved, only praying to God that this demonic spirit leaves that body so that the person can be free from bondage. Whenever we prayed confessing the Blood of Jesus those demonic spirits went crazy... and eventually left that body. I once saw a demon possessed man pickup about 6 of the elders of the church trying to break free. What amazed me even until now is that the people that where effected really and truly wanted to be free... they just needed a Savior.

I myself prayed for a young girl who was once demon possessed, and the Spirit started talking in Zulu (I am from South Africa)... and this girl was NOT of African decent.. neither did she know how to speak Zulu. There was NO ritual involved, just heartfelt prayer to God that the person that is being bound by demonic possession be loosed.. Yes, after a demon manifests, we DO command that spirit to leave. but that's as much as I wish to communicate with anything evil.

Hope that answers your question.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Sometime in the near future I think Klassified is going to start a thread on why he chose to leave Christianity. If he does, would you be willing to state your reasons for leaving in that thread too? I would be interested in hearing both of your stories. Unless you've already made a thread on this topic and I can go read it for myself currently.

reply to post by wildtimes

The anxiety is far more destructive than the action. And those who feel they need to daily "spread the Good word", relentlessly "warning" everyone else, carry a large, self-imposed burden. Truly, it must be hard. To awaken every morning and feel compelled to "save" or "convert" others must be exhausting.

To the fundamentalist mind, any exhaustion is worth it, and met with joy, because from their perspective, they are the vessel God uses to save lives every bit as much as a fireman, paramedic, or doctor. And even moreso, because salvation is eternal.

The devout fundamentalist is genuinely concerned for your immortal soul, and sees persecution and suffering for Christ as something to rejoice about. It only increases their faith, and makes them stronger, and more determined.

If you get the chance Wildtimes, do a personal study on the "double-bind". Once you grasp the concept, it will answer some of your questions about religion in general, including Christianity.

reply to post by Klassified

If you get the chance Wildtimes, do a personal study on the "double-bind". Once you grasp the concept, it will answer some of your questions about religion in general, including Christianity.

Quite. I'm aware of it. Suffer if you do, and suffer if you don't.

The thing is that when it comes to religion, it's a personal choice....it's different from, say, a victim of domestic violence at the hands of a psychopath. One might willingly first engage with the psycho, but then realize they are monsters bent on destroying others (and often themselves in a masochistic way - proving to themselves they aren't worth loving by not loving others)......and then choose to exit the relationship (hopefully in one piece).

NO ONE is forcing religious fundamentalists to behave the way they do...it is entirely imaginary.

reply to post by wildtimes

All valid points.
But as you well know, fear and circular logic are also major motivators that fit neatly into the equation of the double-bind.

I had a cousin who was a battered wife. She was afraid to stay for fear of her life, and afraid her husband would kill her if she left him. She was horrified at the thought of letting myself and a friend take care of him for her, and even more terrified to involve the police. It was not a pretty situation.

Not to compare myself to a battered wife, But in the same way, when I originally began seriously questioning my faith, I remember all the programming from decades of being in the church, and studying my bible rising up in me. The struggle to break free from the cult known as fundamentalist Christianity was an inner and outer war I'd never want to fight again. It was brutal.

I couldn't remain a Christian because of what I knew and realized, but I truly feared for my life and eternal soul if I walked away. I'll leave it at that for now. I'm going to do a thread on this idea sometime soon.

My main point is, unless one has been there, they can't grasp the psychological devastation wrought, and the strength of the double-bind.

Nevertheless, I must agree with you about choice. Just as my cousin chose to stay out of fear, even though she was offered help more than once, I chose to stay a Christian for a while until I made myself make a choice. And I am happy I made that choice.