Why you should take your children out of public schooling RIGHT NOW

reply to post by ScatterBrain



that was directed at a specific poster saying he would prefer home schooling so his children wouldnt have to learn about evolution

the point i was making is home schooling could potentially be worse depending on who it is doing the teaching and the real solution to failing public schools is not to home school but to make public schooling better

and here you are insulting me by being patronizing and adding nothing at all to the conversation...... awesome..... awesome

reply to post by cetaphobic


I feel like I didn't make my point that clearly.

You can state the home schooled children do better on these measures than public school kids by virtue of the schooling. I can state that it is because they have an increased parental presence in their life than the national average, which considers every conceivable family structure.

Who is correct? How do we know?

You can say ACT scores are higher among home schooled children because of the curriculum. I can say that intelligent people are more likely to perceive a problem with schools and elect to home school, which means that this subsection is more likely to be intelligent due to heredity of intelligence.

Which variable is the cause? Your studies cannot answer that, because educational research is never replicable and is often anecdotal with a multitude of variables.

That is my point about educational research and your request for proof. No matter how hard you audit your sources, the proof you require and purport to supply will never be sufficient. Therefore, starting your rebuttals and further discussion with a request for it doesn't accomplish anything.

reply to post by Jiggyfly


Wow, I am really surprised that you got so many stars from that long post darling. I would love to debate you when I get more time, (I am at the busy part of my day right now, but I would love the opportunity to go a few rounds on this matter with you). You have said a lot, but to me it sounded like it lacked any real substance, but hey, I could be wrong (I did only scan your post), I need to read over your long post more carefully when I clear some work up. I am willing to discuss point by point with you, but please try to remember to support your comments with credible resources, as I will be happy to do the same. Based on what you considered qualified to make an educated comment, I am confident I got that covered and then some. I can get back here in a few hours. I think I know exactly (underline that) what is going on in the education system. In the meantime, I saw someone challenge your post already, why don't you show how effectively you can make legitimate counterclaims to hers, while I get my business cleared on this end, then we can have a nice discussion k .

Here is a PDF/book about the origins of the failure and why they did it:
www.deliberatedumbingdown.com...
I watched it happen.

Homeschooling is freedom for the parents. And that is why it is breathtaking.

You are free to buy your state-approved curriculum, or experiment with novel curricula, or even write your own.

you might fail.

Failure is scary. But that is the risk inherent in freedom--knowing that some will fail, and than some children will be failed by incompetent parents. But freedom is like that. Freedom to succeed wildly also includes the freedom to suck.

Sometimes, in some places, it is the experts who suck. A friends child was diagnosed with moderate dyslexia. The school district has money for special classes. But because the boy is not a behavior problem, and is not a minority, the district decided not to spend the money on addressing his issue, since he was already "fairly high-functioning." The money would used for a "disadvantaged" student, with more profound learning AND behavior problems. In other word, they district will spend more money on a child who is already a problem, rather than helping one who will probably grow up to contribute to society.

Who can blame the parents for deciding to homeschool, and fix the problem themselves?

They could hardly do worse than the public teacher, who had only a provisional certificate, since she didn't have an education degree--she just signed up to teach because she couldn't find a job, and the state has a teacher shortage. They will give her 3 years to "learn on the job" of how to teach kids to read. How is that better than homeschool?

Either way, the kid will get "amateur hour" as he learns to read. The homeschool route at least offers one-on-one instruction from parents who love him above all else.

Homeschooling is ONLY as good as the teacher. GIGO is the term that applies. (Garbage In Garbage Out).

With that said, I wouldn't trust most parents to home school their children.

Originally posted by grahag
Homeschooling is ONLY as good as the teacher. GIGO is the term that applies. (Garbage In Garbage Out).

With that said, I wouldn't trust most parents to home school their children.

Because you're smarter than them right? You're smart enough to know what is best for millions of strangers?

What if we give those same parents a time card? I substituted for extra money back before I had my own kids. I had no education degree of any kind. I finished out the year for a teacher who was having a baby. They only qualification was that I have a bachelor's degree in some field from an accredited university. And "poof!" I was writing lesson plans for the next year.

That's who's teaching your kids--some of the same adults you don't trust to teach their own kids.

Seriously. Ask what teaching certificate your kid's teacher has. It is a certificate that basically equals a 5th year of college (which they may have completed online!), plus a degree in the field being preferred. The science teacher I worked with was an engineer who got "emergency certification" from the state. The head of the Spanish department was had a business degree and had grown up speaking spanish, so he passed a state test. And that was IT for qualifications.

Sure I hear what you're saying. But for all the crackhead parents, there are college grads, too. Are you saying hold back the college grads from teaching their own kids, because you want to hold back the crackheads? Because I can tell you right now it is not the absentee parents who are taking up homeschool.

I disagree, I attended a London public school and finished this year with grades B for GCSE and grades Distinction and higher for my A levels.

I can go University anytime I want.

Public schooling is very well managed and the one I went to, was in a very poor and run down area.

The school was filled with thugs.

Seeing as it's in London most of the schools look poor but the teachers are well qualified.

This was just some background information from a former student.

reply to post by Blueboyinheaven


well thats good to know can you please provide more information about the public school system in london?

(im pretty sure the topic is specifically about schools in the united states though and i can assure you the situation here is much different)

reply to post by cetaphobic


I can agree with you that in some cases, the points you make are true, but from a different perspective, many of your points are things children should be learning at home (I.e. Manners, etc.) homeschooling won't help a poorly raised child become a better person.

Good parenting means raising your children to "know right from wrong" regardless of outside influences. If one's children are more greatly influenced by the dirtbags he goes to school with than by his parents, well...bad parents.

Sure, homeschooling can shelter them from the realities of the outside world, but is that a solid upbringing? Better to raise your children to make good decisions, as my parents did. It worked for me, despite an extremely negative public school environment.

As far as math skills, etc. - I experienced it myself - the children whose parents took the time to learn and solve problems at home did great; those whose parents were more concerned with television or partying didn't do so well. My relatively low-income high school trounced the private "math and science academy" in the Mathletes competition year after year - and we did so with a good deal less awkward geekiness.

Public schools - not great by any stretch, but a child with a good supportive upbringing will succeed just as well.

As far as home-schooling - if your kid is doing poorly in public school, then you're probably not doing enough as a parent. Personally, we'll be sending our boy to a high-end private school. Sure, it'll cost probably $7500/year, but that's a lot less than the cost of home-schooling (mom losing $50k+ annual income plus learning materials.

If home schooling is what one prefers, fine, but don't ever think that weak parenting minue bad public schools = great homeschooling. And remember the cost involved, as well as the drastic reduction in social interaction for the child.

reply to post by tovenar


I'm saying that the majority of parents out there aren't knowledgeable in ALL the fields required for a rounded education. I'm quite sure that there ARE some people qualified to teach homeschooling, but I suspect they're in the vast minority.

In public schooling, you have curriculum that are put together by people with knowledge of the subjects taught by people who wanted to be teachers. The majority of them don't do it for the money, because we all know how underpaid that teachers are. The teaching is also split up between various people so that you can get people with more knowledge on a specific subject teaching.

It's not a perfect system, but it's more organized than most home schooling and it allows children to interact with each other in a social environment that homeschooling can't match. Put together other activities that schools provide like sports, field trips, and guest activities that you just can't match with the frequency or caliber of homeschooling.

By all means, pull your kids out of school and home school them. Totally your choice. I was home schooled for 2 years and I begged my parents to go back to school because I wasn't getting the focus on subjects that I was interested in.

I would like my future kids to be home schooled, however there is a couple issues I have with it:

1. I doubt very much that myself and wife could find enough time during the week to work full time and be a teacher for my kids.
2. If your kids aren't exposed to social interaction from a young age with kids the same age then they will suffer greatly as will their social skills
3. I went to a private school and I still have the same best friends I did in my final year, that was 7 years ago, and I don't see any of the friendships finishing soon either. I could not deprive my children of the opportunity to do the same things I did.


I think it would probably be a good idea to put your kids in home schooling for the first few years of their schooling lives, at least until middle school, but then have them transfer into regular once they are a bit older and you have given them a good foundation that regular schools just can't provide at that age.

I am the mother of 5 children. 3 boys, 2 girls. My oldest child, a son, is very bright. We have moved from one school system to another because of the school systems. The first system was considered great, the second system great as well. I was not a big fan of the first system. I could write volumes on that. Although it is rated as a excellent with distinction school that spends about $12,500 per student per year. I think it is a very poor learning environment. The second systems spends about $7500 per student and is still rated excellent with distinction. But that is another issue entirely.

My oldest son's grades still were not reflecting his intelligence. You really have to work to get a 1.20 gpa. He was frustrated on all the fluff (my other children have been thriving). He is a "just the facts" type of person. This child has never had to think outside the box, simply because he has no box holding him in. He was going to be entering the 10th grade. I pulled him out of public school. Now, I'm not a stupid woman, Still I didn't want to have my son held back by missing something that I didn't know. That would be me messing with his future. I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to give him what he needed. My husband and I discussed and opted for an online school. We searched around and found one that I could monitor what he was doing and what was expected from him. Sounds pretty straight forward, but it is not.

My oldest son had an issue with all of the fluff (my term) involved with public schooling. We needed to find a minimal fluff school, that still covered and stimulated him. Finally we settled on this school. My oldest did well in this school. Even though our oldest was not technically home schooled since I relied on an online school to introduce the subjects, but I was there as well as his on-line teachers. I didn't just count on them. I could see what he was doing, what he needed to do. I could see all of the circulum. We could and did discuss everything.

His home district (the second one) had no problem including him still in game club, something he loved and they allowed him to come to the dances and anything he chose to attend. That was something I didn't think would be possible, but it is an awesome system who is in it for the right reasons. This district has a large number of home schooled children, not because of the district, but for religious and philosophical reasons. Many of the children that attend the public system have cousins and such that are home schooled.

For my son's 11th grade year, he chose to attend the local technical school for carpentry. Since he was "home schooled" they put him in the lowest level classes. At the parent teacher conferences, his science teacher asked me why he was in carpentry because he did so well in science. I replied because that is what makes him happy. I got just about the same thing from his math teacher. 3 months into the school year he was placed in all of the advanced courses. Now with that said, since he is attending the local technical school he will receive upon completion, a grant that will cover his first year of college.

I have split feelings on both the issue of public and homeschooling.

Oh, I forgot to say that I went to private schools and college. Which were great and wonderful. But not an option with 5 children. My opinion is this, teach your children along side their schools. Use the schools to fill in the gaps of your teaching. You only get one chance to raise your kids.
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Originally posted by dogstar23
reply to post by cetaphobic

 

Good parenting means raising your children to "know right from wrong" regardless of outside influences. If one's children are more greatly influenced by the dirtbags he goes to school with than by his parents, well...bad parents.

Do you have kids? Do you include getting beaten up in the boys' bathroom as being "more greatly influenced by the dirtbags he goes to school with?" I was a 'discipline problem' in school because I was picked on, and fought back. It went on my record, multiple times. Just like prison.

They are children. They are influenced by the people they are around, whether they want to be or not. It's the nature of childhood, and of learning.

While my kids are role models, I don't automatically equate children who fall in with a bad crowd as having "bad parents." If you are around more parents, you might come to see it a bit less judgmentally. And as your own kids grow up and think for themselves, and choose things you never would for them, you may acquire a more understanding attitude about how hard it is to battle a culture of thuggery that is even accepted by the school itself.

As far as home-schooling - if your kid is doing poorly in public school, then you're probably not doing enough as a parent. Personally, we'll be sending our boy to a high-end private school. Sure, it'll cost probably $7500/year, but that's a lot less than the cost of home-schooling (mom losing $50k+ annual income plus learning materials.

So, everyone in private school makes all A's?

If r the two of you tag team, or choose a university-model or "home-school school," you can do it for ~ $500 per year, and still hold down 1 3/4 jobs.

If home schooling is what one prefers, fine, but don't ever think that weak parenting minue bad public schools = great homeschooling. And remember the cost involved, as well as the drastic reduction in social interaction for the child.

I would say if there is a drastic reduction in socializing, then that IS poor parenting. I know of 4H and scouting, campfire programs with whole home-school chapters or troops. Almost every area of the US at least has a homeschool association that can help with both curriculum advice and socializing. I know 1 homeschool association that does a "Senior Trip" for its graduating seniors each year....

I was schooled in Tulsa, Oklahoma and dropped out of school before finishing the 9th grade.
Throughout elementary school, I was placed under these "advanced" and "gifted" classes, tested very frequently and did great as a whole. Even in middle school I was in advanced classes, and in my 9th grade year, AP classes.
I remember being very proficient in mathematics in my elementary years. Winning small awards for being the fastest in my school at multiplying, dividing, adding and subtracting. I even won a few "art" awards throughout that period.
In kindergarten, I remember the teacher asking me to draw the table we were sitting at, along with us. (A scene from an outer perspective, now that I think of it.)
It was a lego-top table, she had scanned the image and showed other teachers throughout the school and I was continuously praised for the rest of my time there. I guess drawing dimensional objects at my age was a little above average, but I never understood WHY.

This school, though, was not in the same area of Tulsa my middle and high school was.
In 3rd grade, I was kicked out and had to go to another elementary school in a slightly less-wealthy area.
I was closer to being the "minority" in those areas, to be blunt.
As I associated more with the "bad" kids, I had become less academic. I had the ability to learn, but didn't really WANT to have to experience the things I had to in order to acquire such basic knowledge.
After elementary school, my middle school was MUCH worse.
I WAS the minority and surely felt that way.
Some of these other kids, though, they were so smart but lacked the proper teachings or surroundings.
I remember failing 8th grade because I skipped so frequently and had to redo it.
These schools kept getting worse and worse as the years went on. It really seemed as if the board of education cared nothing of actual education.

Coming to California, I was incredibly flabbergasted to find out that my ex-girlfriend's younger sisters were STILL ALLOWED TO GO ON TO THE NEXT GRADE WITHOUT EVEN PASSING.
In fact, they fail every year!
This is not an exaggeration. I don't know if it's that way in every school district of California, but it happens here in LA and on more than one occasion for these girls. Elementary school, middle school, AND high school. (In fact, my ex-girlfriend told me that she failed the 8th grade but still made it to high school when she was younger.)
I can only imagine how often it slides with every other child. I've come across more adults in California that have asked me how to spell things, how to READ things, and how to multiply things, than I have ANYWHERE else.

You can see I'm not the full-on idiot the populous would expect a dropout to be; I learned more in the first few years of being a dropout than I did through all of my time in middle school and one half-year in high school.
You cannot blame it on JUST the schools - sometimes children can't be controlled, ever.
The changes shouldn't just be in schools, whole towns need to be changed.
This obviously won't happen, so I 100% agree with homeschooling.

I'm currently teaching myself physics, astronomy, and biology.
Aspiring to be an astrophysicist, being a dropout does NOT require you lose sight of your dreams.
My goals in life have become much larger than I'd ever expected them to be.

I could go on about my little sister's suicide and my middle school being the cause, but that would be outright ridiculous.

Children shouldn't have to be forced into the school systems.
It does more harm than good.
For socializing, though, children centers should exist - places that are mandatory like school currently is, but strictly recreational and not a daily thing.

Just my 5 cents, I guess.

I never understood why students are placed under enormous scrutiny and pressure while teachers literally do whatever the hell they want. Don't get me wrong - I had some good teachers in school, sure, but not many.

Teachers should be held to a much higher standard than any other profession (and should be adequately compensated for it, too). All answers to earth's problems could be fixed with education. For that matter, most of our problems only exist due to pure unadulterated ignorance (this applies to EVERYTHING - politics, economics, prejudices etc). Knowledge is everything, and most kids come out of school knowing f# all! Even in private schools (which are usually nothing more than religious indoctrination clinics). I was private schooled in my last few senior years, and to be honest it was a total utter waste of my broke parent's money and I wish they'd never sent me there.

My education didn't even start til I left school and entered the "real world" (if you can call it that - seems like doublespeak to me. There's nothing "real" about the world besides what's left of the terrain we live on)

Originally posted by grahag
reply to post by tovenar

 

I'm saying that the majority of parents out there aren't knowledgeable in ALL the fields required for a rounded education. I'm quite sure that there ARE some people qualified to teach homeschooling, but I suspect they're in the vast minority.

I know what you are saying; I just disagree with the ratios. I would argue that the number of professional teachers who are fully qualified and motivated to teach their subject is....less than 100%. I'm not saying that the "vast majority" of professional teachers are incompetent---but neither are parents, IMO.

In public schooling, you have curriculum that are put together by people with knowledge of the subjects taught by people who wanted to be teachers.

You can get that at private schools as well, and can get homeschool materials prepared by the education departments of major universities. You can also join a home-school association, that will have surveys of they members' experiences with various curriucula--what people liked, what they hated, and what works best for the members.

The majority of them don't do it for the money, because we all know how underpaid that teachers are.

Check the median income in your state, and compare the median income for teachers in your state. Odds are, it will be at least one standard deviation above the mean. It may vary by areas, but the fact is many teachers make more than CPAS, with a comparable degree requirement. And most of them have far better benefits than can be found in the private sector.

The teaching is also split up between various people so that you can get people with more knowledge on a specific subject teaching.

In the school district where I substituted, the teachers of a particular advanced topic (high school level) had little extra training beyond a weeklong seminar at what was basically a teacher's convention. For instance, there were no special requirements to be licensed to teach advanced placement US history. Just a desire, and a good relation with the department head. Political connections required. But knowledge? no. .

It's not a perfect system, but it's more organized than most home schooling and it allows children to interact with each other in a social environment that homeschooling can't match.

True, my kids don't know how to use a handgun. I'm having to pay for them to learn that at the gun range. And they aren't learning to make a pipe out of a cored apple---something that everyone in my high school developed mastery of.

Homeschool sure cant match that social environment....

By all means, pull your kids out of school and home school them. Totally your choice. I was home schooled for 2 years and I begged my parents to go back to school because I wasn't getting the focus on subjects that I was interested in.

It's definitely not for everyone. And I believe that public school should be universally available, and that it should be the best we as a nation can deliver. But just as home-school is not a universal answer, neither is public school---it just has the force of law behind it.

What a mix of truth and exaggeration.

When I began to read this... "7. Public schooling punishes the best and brightest children by recommending they be put on ritalin when they question too much or, god forbid, get antsy like children are supposed to. "

I could have sworn you would say "are given the chance to enter gifted programs."

I have seen people on ritalin. There were hyper and unfocused. They are far from the best and the brightest. What a lie to say the best and brightest are recommended to be drugged. What the hell kind of statement is that? And, they certainly would not recommend that pupils scoring high on test be put on medication.

That entire statement makes no sense any way I try to look at it. Please note I am not making fun of people with add or adhd. I'm just pointing out what I remember about such peers in school.

There are problems with public schools, but only certain parents can homeschool their kids. They certainly won't know math if the parent can't teach it. I've had two calculus classes in college, and I wouldn't feel confidant teaching anyone highschool math. (Calculus is easier than certain other maths though.)

Anyway, someone said homeschooled kids are not as bright. That is certainly wrong. The parents know how to teach their kids if they homeschool them. The point of them doing it in the first place is probably to teach them well themselves anyway. I have known a few homeschooled people get perfect scores on standardized tests. No public school prepares kids that well. (OK, there may be exceptions.)

Anyway. Public schools can be alright if parents guide their kids. Most parents are completely out of the loop. That makes things worse.

Originally posted by tovenar

Originally posted by dogstar23
reply to post by cetaphobic

 

Good parenting means raising your children to "know right from wrong" regardless of outside influences. If one's children are more greatly influenced by the dirtbags he goes to school with than by his parents, well...bad parents.

Do you have kids? Do you include getting beaten up in the boys' bathroom as being "more greatly influenced by the dirtbags he goes to school with?" I was a 'discipline problem' in school because I was picked on, and fought back. It went on my record, multiple times. Just like prison.

They are children. They are influenced by the people they are around, whether they want to be or not. It's the nature of childhood, and of learning.

While my kids are role models, I don't automatically equate children who fall in with a bad crowd as having "bad parents." If you are around more parents, you might come to see it a bit less judgmentally. And as your own kids grow up and think for themselves, and choose things you never would for them, you may acquire a more understanding attitude about how hard it is to battle a culture of thuggery that is even accepted by the school itself.

There was nothing in the original post I was responding to about getting beat up in the boys' bathroom, but to answer your question, one would hope that the response to such behavior would be more influen ed by one's parents than by scumbag bullies.

As you say, they are children and are influenced by the people they are around (as is everyone.) As I stated, they should be "more greatly influenced" by their parents.

I have a child, but he is only an infant, however, I have spent a great deal of time around near 20 children of various close friends. I have witnessed for years now how obviously behaviors are linked to the parents, yet I have been unable to draw any parallels - in grades or behavior - to which quality or type of school the child goes to.

Yes, children will make choices their parents wish they wouldn't have, but I stand firm in my belief that most of the time, if a child is making drastically poor decisions, then the parenting was lacking in some crucial way. As far as schools accepting a culture of thuggery, well, there aren't any schools like that in the greater Chicago area that I have ever heard of - and I have friends and family as teachers or parents of children throughout most of the area - from the ghetto to the ritziest suburbs. Maybe other parts of the nation have creepy administrators who should be investigated. A school accepting a culture of thuggery is so far outside the realm of normal, it should be exposed on 60 Minutes or 20/20...

As far as home-schooling - if your kid is doing poorly in public school, then you're probably not doing enough as a parent. Personally, we'll be sending our boy to a high-end private school. Sure, it'll cost probably $7500/year, but that's a lot less than the cost of home-schooling (mom losing $50k+ annual income plus learning materials.

So, everyone in private school makes all A's?

If r the two of you tag team, or choose a university-model or "home-school school," you can do it for ~ $500 per year, and still hold down 1 3/4 jobs.

I'm not sure you read what you quoted me on. That had nothing to do whatsoever with grades - but, since you're trying to put words into my mouth, I'll explain why we're choosing to do so: the school we plan on sending our child to knows how to really help children to learn, has amazing facilities, and teaches up to each child's ability, rather than down to the lowest quartile. I have friends whose children are going there, and coupled with at-home learning with parents, they are far beyond their age-group peers in knowledge, critical thinking abilities, and also in their absolute love of learning.

If home schooling is what one prefers, fine, but don't ever think that weak parenting minu(s) bad public schools = great homeschooling. And remember the cost involved, as well as the drastic reduction in social interaction for the child.

I would say if there is a drastic reduction in socializing, then that IS poor parenting. I know of 4H and scouting, campfire programs with whole home-school chapters or troops. Almost every area of the US at least has a homeschool association that can help with both curriculum advice and socializing. I know 1 homeschool association that does a "Senior Trip" for its graduating seniors each year....

Kids who are not homeschooled also go to camps, scouting, sports, etc. What about the 40 hours a week in school? How is that schoolday social interaction of 40 hours a week missing not a drastic reduction, when the not-homeschooled can do all of the things the homeschooled can outside of school hours?

Public schools are terrible i agree, op. But home schooling should be a last-ditch option. Home schooling is terrible when it comes to teaching children how to socialize with other children their own age, and it creates socially awkward zombies.