The representors of religion

Strolling on facebook today I saw a picture of Jesus, and I think the exploitation of this man is unbelievable. I am an atheist by the way and I have no problem with people who have chosen a religion. It's certain people that get on my nerves and I bet there are certain ''moron'' atheists that get on the nerves of religious people. Not because they have/haven't chosen a religion but purely because of how much better they think they are, how smug they act or how clueless about what they believe in they are.

Here is the picture I saw.



Lets not forget that temptation itself is not a sin, but following through the temptation is a sin. And for the 948,604 people that liked that photo, I bet no more than 1/30 have true belief in that chosen religion. Again looking at this picture, Jesus Christ is obviously being exploited so the poster of the picture (who I would say found this picture in google images) could gain popularity. Tempting people to gain popularity.
Because people believe Jesus died for them, please forgive but I assume they must believe in him or in their eyes an made up figure died for them.

So far we have people who believe Jesus died for them committing a sin. (Following up on the temptation). Apart from people who obviously don't truly follow what they think they believe in I don't see much problem right?

Well moving on to the next level...



Apparently we aren't entitled to our own opinion.
Its when uneducated people try to shove religion down your throat that annoys me.
These people don't truly understand what they believe in, yet they are trying to promote it.

So I bring forward the problem - Why are there so many people, trying to sell you something they have little knowledge about?

I believe people are entitled to believe what ever they want in terms of religion and I have no less respect for them. As long as they are true and educated to what they believe in. An analogy would be a vegetarian having an exception of eating steak because they enjoy the taste of it then going and having a go at other people for eating meat.

Is religion becoming more of a fashion than a belief? My answer is yes. People are blindly accepting they are religious and in a lot of cases at no fault of their own. Whether through exploitation, or having ideas and concepts shoved down your throat, more and more people think they know what they believe in and it is ruining religion for those that are educated in what they believe.

I think these people do this sort of stuff as a fail safe. In other words ''I better like this in case god/Jesus is real, but at the moment I dont believe he is. Hopefully liking this picture will be enough.

Once again, I have no problem with people who believe in the idea of a superior being created this universe. No one knows, but me believing there is a scientific explanation to everything is something I will always be true to. Until maybe one day there is certainty that we and everything we know is the product created by a ''god'' like being.

Originally posted by curiousrb

Apparently we aren't entitled to our own opinion.
Its when uneducated people try to shove religion down your throat that annoys me.
These people don't truly understand what they believe in, yet they are trying to promote it.

So I bring forward the problem - Why are there so many people, trying to sell you something they have little knowledge about?

They do it because they are taught that spreading their religion is the right thing to do, yet they are too lazy to learn more about what they believe. Some also simply believe, especially in the case of youth, that what they are taught in sunday school or by their priests/ministers/other clergy is everything that's important to know. It isn't though. There's always more to study and think on.

There are people who know what they are talking about and do educate themselves fully on both the full precepts of their religion and other viewpoints so that they can argue their points fully. These people are worth talking to at the very least for a satisfying debate. There's a term for this study is apologetics.

Is religion becoming more of a fashion than a belief? My answer is yes. People are blindly accepting they are religious and in a lot of cases at no fault of their own. Whether through exploitation, or having ideas and concepts shoved down your throat, more and more people think they know what they believe in and it is ruining religion for those that are educated in what they believe.

I agree. Many supposedly religious people are really not that educated on their own religions. I hate to say it, but a lot of people half-ass their religion. They go to church once a week because they are supposed to and don't give it any thought past that. This leads to situations where people, especially youth, think they know their religion when they are only half educated. They end up spreading incomplete information and ignorant assumptions as a result.

To compound that problem, there's the internet. It gives a platform for those half-educated people to spread their ignorance and incomplete facts to the public, causing a lot more confusion and a lot of misconceptions to outsiders. There are also situations where it gives a lot of mixed information, confuses practices of different denominations of christianity and in some places are just outright wrong in what it tells you. Then there are the outright lies. This misinformation easily gets around, and can confuse people further and causes a lot of problems.

Is it any wonder religion gets such a bad rap lately? There are fewer and fewer people who actually understand it. The ignorant people are becoming the vocal majority while those of us who take our religion and religious study seriously are being pushed out.

reply to post by curiousrb

So I bring forward the problem - Why are there so many people, trying to sell you something they have little knowledge about?

In a word? Brainwashing. By parents, peers, church members, ministers. From very early childhood. I know, it happened to me. My Mother was always afraid of me, and often called me an alien, or a Demon, according to what mood she was in. Every night she would pray for my soul. He biggest dream was for me to be a preacher.
Then can a day when I had some questions for the preacher. I have always been a questioner, don't know why, I just cannot accept at face value, and cannot embrace blind faith. I was kindly told to "go home and read the Bible, you will find answers to all questions in there." Ha! After doing so, I had a great many questions. When I attempted to ask them, and get an answer, what I got was a stern lecture not to ever, ever question the word of God. Just "believe," I was told. You who know me have seen some of the questions, I have posted most in here. And yet, most are unanswered in a logical manner. Oh, I get answers, sprinkled with Bible quotes and circular logic. And it seems the more I learn about Christianity, the worse it sounds, especially with the way it's followers act and treat others. I was just reading how young people are leaving Christianity. Blame has been assigned already, TV seems to be the culprit. I disagree.
Even my 10 year old can see through it.

I too see the faithful come in here with their "good news gospel," and in short order they either get shot down, get a history lesson, gets flamed, or become so mean no one responds to them anymore. Banning shortly follows after the angry outbursts and personal insults are posted. A good Muslim memorizes their book, from cover to cover. Most Christians do not, some cannot read it at all, and just read the verses they are told to turn to by the leader. I am old enough to remember preachers wailing against Rock and Roll and all things fun, and I have seen the faithful go into seizures and flop on the floor, speaking gibberish. I have seen a preacher get so mad and so red faced, I thought his heart would surely burst.
I have seen the Dark Side of Christianity too, and let me tell you, it is not a pretty sight.

They can sell, that doesn't mean we have to buy. Just saying.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by curiousrb

 

In a word? Brainwashing. By parents, peers, church members, ministers. From very early childhood. I know, it happened to me. My Mother was always afraid of me, and often called me an alien, or a Demon, according to what mood she was in. Every night she would pray for my soul. He biggest dream was for me to be a preacher.

I can sympathize. My family and everyone I knew thought I should be a priest. I also had a few moments where my parents decided I was possessed. It wasn't fun. At least they meant well.

Then can a day when I had some questions for the preacher. I have always been a questioner, don't know why, I just cannot accept at face value, and cannot embrace blind faith. I was kindly told to "go home and read the Bible, you will find answers to all questions in there." Ha! After doing so, I had a great many questions. When I attempted to ask them, and get an answer, what I got was a stern lecture not to ever, ever question the word of God. Just "believe," I was told. You who know me have seen some of the questions, I have posted most in here. And yet, most are unanswered in a logical manner. Oh, I get answers, sprinkled with Bible quotes and circular logic. And it seems the more I learn about Christianity, the worse it sounds, especially with the way it's followers act and treat others. I was just reading how young people are leaving Christianity. Blame has been assigned already, TV seems to be the culprit. I disagree.
Even my 10 year old can see through it.

The way your preacher acted had nothing to do with the foundations of christianity. It's the general reaction of people who are too uneducated to answer your questions and don't like you asking because it shows that they are not qualified for their jobs. You were in the right there. your preacher was incompetent.

I too see the faithful come in here with their "good news gospel," and in short order they either get shot down, get a history lesson, gets flamed, or become so mean no one responds to them anymore. Banning shortly follows after the angry outbursts and personal insults are posted. A good Muslim memorizes their book, from cover to cover. Most Christians do not, some cannot read it at all, and just read the verses they are told to turn to by the leader.

There are simply too many ignorant people trying to spread their religion. Even clergy can fall into this category. It's sad. If religions, especially christianity, want to pull themselves out of this hole they have dug for themselves, they need to start educating their congregations and clergy on their religions and how to argue their beliefs in an intelligent manner.

I am old enough to remember preachers wailing against Rock and Roll and all things fun, and I have seen the faithful go into seizures and flop on the floor, speaking gibberish. I have seen a preacher get so mad and so red faced, I thought his heart would surely burst.
I have seen the Dark Side of Christianity too, and let me tell you, it is not a pretty sight.

They can sell, that doesn't mean we have to buy. Just saying.

Generally, the dark side of christianity has nothing to do with actual christianity and everything to do with people either acting off ignorance of their religion, or doing whatever they want and calling it christianity because the "know better" than the people in charge. Some people will also latch onto anything that sounds godly, even if it has nothing to do with established teachings. It can lead to terrible things. It could all be avoided too if people just studied their religions thoroughly instead of simply going by what they hear.

reply to post by curiousrb




And this is the kinda nonsense that turns people away from church and religious faiths.

I'm not a Christian, but I think it provides a good basic foundation to the path of spiritual growth, if studied with an open and critical mind. There are some good proverbs to live by and metaphors that can promote deep thought, for some.

reply to post by windword


Agreed. Reading that post in the picture again, it reminds me what elitists religious people can be sometimes. They act like they are better than everyone else because of their "faith" even though their own religions state that isn't the case. Closed minded ignorance at it's finest.

I also take offense to that comment on evolution. I'm Catholic and I believe in evolution. I can never understand why people think that god and evolution have to be mutually exclusive. They aren't necessarily. From a religious perspective, there's a pretty good case to be made for God having a hand in evolution. I don't know why most religious people won't even consider the idea.

reply to post by QuietInsanity

There are people who know what they are talking about and do educate themselves fully on both the full precepts of their religion and other viewpoints so that they can argue their points fully. These people are worth talking to at the very least for a satisfying debate.

Agreed. They are very interesting, calm, and able to admit they don't know everything.

There's a term for this study is apologetics.

INCORRECT! "Apologists" are a type of Christian (or other religious fan) who have closed their mind to everything outside of their chosen doctrine, and make a practice of using the same old tired lines all the time, formulaic responses to those asking valid questions. They are staunchly uninterested in learning MORE -- they are only interested in "standing their ground" with their fingies in their hearing-holes as to what others think and ponder.

]

There's a term for this study is apologetics.

INCORRECT! "Apologists" are a type of Christian (or other religious fan) who have closed their mind to everything outside of their chosen doctrine, and make a practice of using the same old tired lines all the time, formulaic responses to those asking valid questions. They are staunchly uninterested in learning MORE -- they are only interested in "standing their ground" with their fingies in their hearing-holes as to what others think and ponder.

INCORRECT! That's your rather limited view of how an apologist behaves. A deeper look may show that most apologists take their job very seriously, study continuously and change their precepts and arguments as their knowledge grows and the Holy Spirit moves them.

Try not to stereotype an entire group of people based on what I assume is anecdotal evidence.

Eric

reply to post by EricD

Try not to stereotype an entire group of people based on what I assume is anecdotal evidence.

I didn't. I looked it up as a matter of fact, and read about what it is, and how it's done, and looked at several websites filled with formulaic answers for them to use, all designed to defeat perfectly sound skeptical and critical remarks with circular logic....all using the Gospels to prove themselves.
en.wikipedia.org...

Christian apologetics is a field of Christian theology that aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, to defend the faith against objections and misrepresentation, and to expose error within other religions and world views.[citation needed] Christian apologetics have taken many forms over the centuries, starting with Saul of Tarsus, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, and continuing today with the efforts of many authors and speakers from various Christian traditions, such as Cornelius Van Til, Gordon Clark, Greg Bahnsen, James White, John F. MacArthur, Hank Hanegraaff, Ravi Zacharias, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, C.S. Lewis, Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, William Lane Craig, J. P. Moreland, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Hugh Ross and Scott Hahn.[citation needed] Apologists base their defense of Christianity on teleological arguments.

While there are various types of arguments including ontological, cosmological, and teleological, it is the opinion of many Christian apologists that the Gospel is the best defense and living a life according to the tenets of Jesus' teachings is the best argument. One Christian apologist believes that "the best argument is one that is made without words."[2]

Try not to assume you know the first thing about me, Eric.

Originally posted by wildtimes

Try not to assume you know the first thing about me, Eric.

edit on 28-6-2012 by wildtimes because: add source

That's a rather odd thing to hear from someone that claims:

'INCORRECT! "Apologists" are a type of Christian (or other religious fan) who have closed their mind to everything outside of their chosen doctrine, and make a practice of using the same old tired lines all the time, formulaic responses to those asking valid questions. They are staunchly uninterested in learning MORE -- they are only interested in "standing their ground" with their fingies in their hearing-holes as to what others think and ponder.'

You assume that they 'closed their mind', are 'un-interested in learning more' are are 'only interested in standing their ground'. And you speak about them without distinction.

Eric

reply to post by EricD

And, EricD, would you like to provide a separate source that refutes the former 'description'?

We've bumped into one another before.....
you ask questions, but offer no answers.....

and I will not, and shall never, kowtow to your methods....

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EricD

 

And, EricD, would you like to provide a separate source that refutes the former 'description'?

We've bumped into one another before.....
you ask questions, but offer no answers.....

and I will not, and shall never, kowtow to your methods....

Sure. Let me make sure that I understand you correctly though. You want me to find apologists that have shown a willingness to move from dogmatic positions based on further study or new evidence. Would that be accurate?

Let me know and I'll get to work.

Eric

reply to post by EricD

You want me to find apologists that have shown a willingness to move from dogmatic positions based on further study or new evidence. Would that be accurate?

Yup.

Show me some reasonable, articulate Apologists who are not married to the Gospels, but also consider modern discoveries. Using the Bible to prove the Bible is "true and the Word of God"`is not what I'm interested in. Nor is getting into a futile discussion where you try to make me look like an idiot.

Be nice, and we'll talk.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Be nice, and we'll talk.

edit on 28-6-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Well, I'm not sure if that was an implication or my inference that I haven't been 'nice', but I'll try to post by tomorrow with some examples of apologists who have shifted their opinions/arguments/beliefs based on research and the opinions of others.

Eric

reply to post by EricD

Well, I'm not sure if that was an implication or my inference that I haven't been 'nice', but I'll try to post by tomorrow with some examples of apologists who have shifted their opinions/arguments/beliefs based on research and the opinions of others.

You've been unapproachable and distant, in my limited interactions with you. You rarely show up on the boards.

I am not interested in conversation with someone who is not interested in intelligent discussion. OTOH, I'll look forward to seeing some evidence that "Apologists" are not all cut from the same evangelical cloth.

Peace

Originally posted by wildtimes
I am not interested in conversation with someone who is not interested in intelligent discussion. OTOH, I'll look forward to seeing some evidence that "Apologists" are not all cut from the same evangelical cloth.

Peace

Here's four. I tried to offer some diverse examples. Cherry picking a bunch of similar Catholic stories would have been easier, but less effective. Let me know if you'd like more:

1)Ralph Woodrow
Background: Evangelical Minister, speaker, author of 16 books. Engages in apologetics. Previously specialized in anti-Catholic apologetics. Wrote the very popular Babylon Mystery Religion.
Woodrow based much of his work (that certainly paid a lot of his bills and brought him considerable acclaim) on the work of Alexander Hislop and his seminal work 'The Two Babylons'. Woodrow's book sold out numerous times and he was a 'hot' speaker on the circuit.

After considerable research, he came to the conclusion that Hislop's work was of poor scholarship and exemplified outdated methodology in the field of archeology. In spite of losing a cash cow and his main base of support, he repudiated his earlier claims, removed his book from publication and wrote a new book denouncing his earlier stance. He's still considered a pariah by some that used to support him.

2)John Loftus
Background: Evangelical Minister, adjunct professor at Christian colleges and was an active apologist.

After 14 years of ministry, Loftus slowly became less and less convinced of the veracity of what he was preaching and through study slowly became an atheist. He's probably more of an apologist than ever, arguing from the point of atheism.

3)Scott Hahn
Background: Presbyterian minister and theologian and Professor of Theology at a Seminary.

Hahn was a Presbyterian 'warrior' who often boasted of how many Catholics he had converted. As he continued his studies for personal reasons and his teaching, he started questioning Presbyterian teaching on contraception, OSAS and sola scripture. His continued searching slowly lead him to the Catholic Church, which would have been an anathema to him years earlier. He is now a prominent Catholic apologist and author.

4)David Goldstein
Background: Jewish Marxist and Socialist organizer and propagandist.

Goldstein was born of strictly Orthodox Jewish parents, but attended synagogue rarely. He became a leader of the burgeoning socialist movement in Boston and was a popular and successful organizer. He became disenchanted with the movement upon witnessing it's disdain for traditional family values (not quite the cliché back then). He became a vocal opponent of Reverend George Herron and as his knowledge grew and his opinions changed he eventually became a Catholic and an active apologist.

reply to post by curiousrb

I didn't know that the actor in the picture (I assume it is Jim Caviezel from Mel Gibson's controversial film The Passion) died for you and I?

It absolutely astounded me how Protestant fundamentalists swooned about this film, when many of them think that the Catholic church is a deception (to put it mildly).

Parts of the film were based on the Catholic mysticism of Anne Catherine Emmerich, whom even some Catholics find to be a well-intentioned fraud.
en.wikipedia.org...

The extended flogging scenes have appeared on s&m sites, and the violence was said to overshadow the message.

I recall at the time that parents were encouraged to take their teens and disregard the age restriction (16 in SA).

The graphic violence done to Christ was said to encourage antisemitism, which was satirized on a South Park episode.

I'm amazed that scenes from that film are still used as Biblical photo-realism for evangelical purposes.
It's a shocking but good film, but very problematic.

He may have died for you and I in the wider context of the film, but a certain group of people demanded His death, just like antisemitic medieval passion plays.
While those aspects of the film were downplayed, Mel Gibson's later rants on the Jews did make it seem rather intentional.

PS. I'm not so sure that temptation itself is not a sin, depending on whom you ask.
Thought crime is a sin in the New Testament, and if you look at a woman with lust you've already committed adultery in your heart (Matthew 5:28).
Literally that applies only to married men, but some feel it can be extended to guilt-trip other people too, like unmarried people, gays and women.

reply to post by EricD


Interesting,

Four guys with credentials: an author, 2 professors, and a social organizer -- one would expect them, being of the type who feels they have something worthwhile to say -- to be good at discourse. They, I presume, are examples of the "masters" of apologetics.

Perhaps there ought to be a required curriculum for your run-of-the-mill Joe or Jane before they put on that mantle. The usual newly-reborn freshmen Christians who declare themselves "apologists" should perhaps study your examples (or study under them!) before opening their mouths.

reply to post by halfoldman


I agree, I never knew this man died for me. And whilst I don't mind religious people who keep to themselves, I don't not believe in the conflict religion has caused. Another thing is, the person who posted this picture, is trying to tell me something I don't believe in died for me. I wouldn't mind if he was just saying something like ''This man is my savior and has helped me through difficult times'', but he is trying to convince me I am partly the reason why Jesus (who in my mind is a fictional character) died.

If it was some sort of god who brought us here, he is the creator of the simulation his advanced species has made.

But come on guys, we do have to have respect for the biggest industry in the world.