Cops Attempt to Detain a guy with a gun, Supervisor comes in ..Can i have my gun back Sir ? .. Yup !

reply to post by xDeadcowx


In some states it is legal to openly carry a firearm. But it must be unloaded, and therefore useless. Kinda defeats the point in my opinion. In my state, open carry is illegal, don't want to scare the little sheeple. However concealed carry is legal with a permit, and the gun can be loaded and so it is actually useful. I have carried in the presence of police and they had no clue, and never asked if I had a weapon. However in my state, and I thought in all others, you are required to provide identification to a police officer when asked. Failing to identify is actually a crime. At least that was what I thought...

Originally posted by Ryanssuperman
I think its ridiculous to allow a man to walk down the street with a firearm and not be able to request ID or a permit (assuming a permit is required).

I'm all of civilian rights, however, in Canada, the police are allowed to request identification regardless of if they suspect you of a crime. I think this is a safe practice ... and doesn't infringe on our rights.

The guy recording could have been a multitude of things ... criminal, escaped convict, not allowed to carry firearms ect. To be able to get away without identifying this individual is crazy.

So why don't we just tatoo our childrens' names on their heads for easier identification.

If I don't want to tell you my name, I don't have to. Same goes for a cop... if I'm not doing anything wrong, then that cop is no different than the mechanic sitting at the table next to me. He doesn't need to know my name.

By the way... permits to open carry are not required in many states. Permits are often only require to conceal.

Lastly... when people get shot... it's by someone that was concealing their gun. They don't want to make a scene before the commit a crime... think about it.

Originally posted by FondueHowever in my state, and I thought in all others, you are required to provide identification to a police officer when asked. Failing to identify is actually a crime. At least that was what I thought...

As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

Flex Your Rights dot ORG

Would be pretty absurd requirement.

I rarely ever have any ID on me. Especially photo ID. My DL is in my glove box. Every thing else is at home in a fire safe.

A legal requirement to carry a thing, any thing, is pretty absurd. My lifestyle makes carrying a wallet and documents a real pain in the ass.

As soon as I can get rid of my car I'll let my DL lapse. I'd rather not have any "papers" at all.

Originally posted by Wolf321
reply to post by Ark005

 

...I would also like to see the cops question the callers a bit. Inform them of the legal right to open carry and then question if knowing that, the behavior or manner being carried suggest a dangerous or threatening individual.

edit on 24-6-2012 by Wolf321 because: (no reason given)

I would definitely like to see this happen. However dispatchers are not LEO and therefore cannot enforce law.

Yeah, chalk a victory up for the common man. If that young man did not know his rights, the cops would have confiscated the gun and maybe detained him as well. At least the supervisor was knowledgeable. Cops are just trying to do their job, but they must think and not be zombies... Think about the orders, Think about what you are doing before conflict starts. Who is right? The Constitution of the United States of America.

Originally posted by Ark005

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Ark005

 

Yeah and if they aren't familiar with the laws then they shouldn't be calling the damn police based on things they don't understand. And what kind of idiot doesn't realize it's perfectly legal to a carry a gun with a permit...

What, because he wouldn't provide his name or ID and wanted his gun back? Well guess what, he was stopped based on completely bogus grounds, they had no legal basis for taking his gun and requesting his ID. He had no reason to "comply" with their stupid ass commands because there was no legitimate legal reason for them to be issuing such commands. He was doing nothing except excerpting the rights given to him by the law of the land. If everyone were to simply do anything the police say, even when they have no valid legal basis, then the those laws protecting citizens may as well not exist.

2 words: Public Safety
If you openly have a gun and someone has called it in, they can detain you. If you haven't done anything wrong, they let you go. Simple as that.
Now I'm not saying that we should be the mindless sheep (thanks for that by the way), I'm saying stop going out looking for these situations.
And it's not what he did it's how he was going about it. The film-maker was trying to get the officer to do something other than what happened.
As I said before these people are a part of the problem.

So I guess if I drive a car legally and safely and someone calls it in they can stop and detain me? I could have the intent of running people over you know.

It shouldn't be an issue of anyone going out looking for situations is the point. He'd done no more wrong that the person driving with a dash cam.

In my state, open carry is legal, however you still need the permit, same with concealed carry. I will occasionally open carry, and have only had one encounter with the police. The encounter was simple, I was at a large chain store, and a police officer approached me and said "excuse me sir, but we had a call in about a man with a gun. I see you have a 1911 on your hip, do you have a permit?" I said yes and he told me to have a n ice day. He never asked to see it, never asked my name. See here, the gun laws are on the side of the citizen. You have no duty to inform the officer during a stop if you are carrying concealed. You do not have to show your permit unless asked directly for it. You also do not have to identify yourself unless you are being detained or are suspected of a crime.

I am seriously, a reasonable police officer should understand that a criminal is not going to just openly carry an illegal firearm in plain view of everyone. That is just stupid. Why should a law abiding citizen bow down and comply with demands from law enforcement that are not based on legal authority? Moreover, why do so many people expect others to subjugate themselves to fourth amendment infringement? Just because they are carrying an item you are irrationally afraid of? Guns do not just randomly go off on their own ya know. I have been around them all my life and have never once even heard of a gun leaving a holster and just going off on their own accord. The position some people have that following the law ( carrying a legal gun in a legal manner) is a crime and police need to investigate is just asinine. By that logic, everyone that has plants in their yard needs to be investigated and have their home searched for a possible marijuana farm in their backyard.

Originally posted by ANOK
If I had a 'license' to use an illegal substance and stood on the street using it, would you expect a cop to ignore me, or see if I actually did have a 'license'?

How can the idiot not reasonably expect to be questioned, in a country where people shoot people en masse? I appreciate the guys right to carry, but a little common sense would help also. Seems to me he is doing it to be purposely antagonistic. No one can seriously expect to openly carry, legal or not, and not be questioned.

It's not illegal to be naked in the street where I live, but if people call and complain the cops will make them cover up.

edit on 6/25/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Look at what you said... "illegal substance". Guns are NOT illegal, so your logic doesn't stand. In fact... having a gun on you in VA can only be illegal if you are a felon, under 18, or concealing without a permit. I'm pretty sure those that conceal without a permit are the ones that actually make trouble happen. Columbine didn't happen because the kids walked in all merrily holding their rifles, sat down with their guns openly on the floor beside them and then they started shooting later. No... they were concealed!

reply to post by SilentKillah


Wait what? I didn't see that post before. That is pretty insane.

If it is legal to be naked, but the police are called, they can make you cover up? How? Why? It is either legal or it is not legal, can't be both ways. If it is legal to stand there naked, and someone calls the cops, the cops are going to tell the caller that it isn't a violation, they aren't going to go make someone cover up.

Even in my job now. We get calls about plenty of things that are either legal or illegal, and if they are legal, we don't send an investigator out to tell someone that what they are doing, although legal, is offensive so they need to stop. That would be ludicrous. We just tell the callers we can't help them, and the action is legal.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by WhatAreThey
I would think that anyone who open carries would be able to spout off 4 or 5 different rulings. In fact, visit an open-carry gun forum and see for yourself and how much these people put up with just to exercise their rights.

Once again, Who open carries?

Again... as a motorcycle rider who has been jacked, I open carry while riding. Of course, I could wear jeans which rip right open at contact with concrete instead of leathers which protect me and conceal my gun in my pants I guess. Nope... I'll take safety from both sides... pavement and determent/protection from thieves.

Originally posted by Fondue
reply to post by xDeadcowx

 

In some states it is legal to openly carry a firearm. But it must be unloaded, and therefore useless. Kinda defeats the point in my opinion. In my state, open carry is illegal, don't want to scare the little sheeple. However concealed carry is legal with a permit, and the gun can be loaded and so it is actually useful. I have carried in the presence of police and they had no clue, and never asked if I had a weapon. However in my state, and I thought in all others, you are required to provide identification to a police officer when asked. Failing to identify is actually a crime. At least that was what I thought...

VA can be loaded with open carry. As I previously stated, all of the restrictions are on concealing... and with that it can be loaded but cannot carry more than 21 bullets while concealed. You know... some people like to have to extra large magazines.

why people still say this is a free country is beyond me. I wish the guy who made this video would come to the bronx and try that though, lol. Where are you fight for your rights people on 181st n Prospect? We need you out here! But i dont recommend it unless you like 3 days in a jail cell for daring to videotape yourself being harassed. People who do these videos live in a fantasy world and have no clue about the real world. The cops will kill you out here if you try that. Is any of this right? of course not but thats my point. This video might get somebody killed thinking they can talk to police like that. Pulling out a wallet to cooperate with police will get u killed around here. Carrying a bag of marijuana will get u chased into your own home and murdered in your own bathroom by NY's finest. A 57 year old man in my building was just arrested and given a court date for carrying his pocket knife coming home from his job as a carpenter. Last Saturday I was groped by a female officer because I had the same colored shirt as a recent robbery suspect. All I could say to her was thank you as she allowed me to carry on. Carrying a gun in public is a death wish. We live in a police state and have been for years. This video should say, "don't try this at home" on it.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by WhatAreThey

Personally, I give credit to people for DOING GOOD, not for NOT DOING BAD. I can only imagine how ridiculous it must be to tell your significant other, "Thanks for NOT CHEATING on me today!" or telling your kid, "Good Job on NOT FAILING! You were damn close, but you just made it! GREAT JOB!".

Firstly, I consider honesty a good thing, worthy of some credit.

Secondly, I consider not cheating a good thing.

Thirdly, I consider not failing a good thing.

You apparently consider all of the above as less than good.

My standards are obviously just higher than yours. I'll praise my children for A's, and you can praise yours for D's. I'll divorce my wife for cheating, while you can thank yours for not doing it twice in a month. You can keep your low standards. Hopefully they work out for you.

No. They are charged with questioning the legality of an action that they question.

... within the realms of that questioning being warranted in the first place. There exists no probable cause that warrants someone to be pulled over and questioned just for driving a car, and there exists no probable cause that warrants someone to be stopped and questioned just for open-carrying. This has already been established in Commonwealth V. Hawkins 1996: Carrying an open-carry weapon without any threatening behavior or illegal behavior is not grounds for a "stop and ID", detainment, or arrest.

If they are charged with establishing legality, that means

they are charged with establishing guilt. Guilt is the commission of an illegal act.

They do not tell the court "This action is illegal and he did it." They tell the court "I question the legality of this person's actions and believe he may be guilty of a crime."

Probable cause is what police establish, and probable cause is defined as a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. In order for someone to understand that someone has commited a crime requires a knowledge of what is legal and illegal.

I'll keep posting facts while you keep concentrating on the absurd.

Yes, there are, including the right of a cop to ask a question of someone. Asking questions is not illegal.

It's not illegal until it becomes harassment, which was what was clearly happening to the man in the video. He wasn't just asking a question, but asking to see the man's ID. Over, and over. The power of knowing what rights you have is clearly illustrated by the fact that it is not illegal per-say for the officer to ask for the man's ID - and at the same time it is not illegal for the man to not follow through with the request. After all, if the cop had the authority to see the man's ID, he wouldn't have to ask the question. He was merely harassing the man for his ID. If a common citizen did this to a mailman, for example, it would be a federal offense.

You are also aware that any time a complaint is received, police are required to check it out, right? Even if it is a bogus complaint.

False right out of the gate. There exist no federally mandated police investigatory guidelines that blanket every jurisdiction. They may or may not be required to respond to 100% of complains in certain jurisdictions, and while they investigate (as the cop in this video did) you are certainly not required to comply under the 4th amendment if they have no probable cause. It is more the case that the police WILL NOT INVESTIGATE a complaint if no probable cause exists and/or you can not provide evidence to back up your complaint. This certainly won't stop them from asking, lying to you (as you appear to agree with), or trying to assume their way into your household and manufacturing "consent" or seizing your property. You can throw away your 4th amendment rights and consent until your heart aches, just as you adopt your low standards. Don't expect everyone to do so.

reply to post by Opportunia


I'll keep my own gun but not too keen on pushing them on others who do not know how to handle them. I'd rather have the mental health people desperately need to prevent insanity from running their lives and that alone might go a long way toward cleaning up the streets. Course it might be more sporting to wait until they act up and shoot them.

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder
Anywhere that is considered public property...on private property it is normally at the discretion of the owner. Also, most businesses I frequent do not require those with open arms to leave. I don't know where you get this idea.

You might be in a very friendly open carry place, but in most cities private property establishments will not let you in, and if they see a concealed gun they will ask the person to leave.

Concealing a firearm without a concealed carry permit is considered a crime.

No Sh*t...hehe get the permit...it is simple.

That is no excuse to infringe on my, or anyone else's rights. See my comment about stand up comedians above.

You not being used to something is not going to infringe on my natural rights, sorry.

I'm not saying it is an excuse, I'm saying that open carry is impracticable based on the limited places you can go and so it is very uncommon, or downright not seen. Now I agree that there are cities where it is practicable, but if this guy was from Portland it was not, and so not a situation the cop would normally come across, hence his miss handling of it all.

If anyone wants to legally open carry have at it, and if you feel the guy's freedom was trampled all over then go march on Washington with the flag draped around you and your guns on your hips in protest if you so desire...

I personally see this one incident as a non-issue since the cop did screw up, but it was all quickly rectified. As fast as this guy posted his video and bragged about it I have a feeling he will continue to challenge the police and public with his right to open carry, and record it all for future bragging rights if and when he can suck another cop into his scheme.

I don't think it is a smart thing to throw your freedoms into other people's faces as some kind of challenge, and I may be wrong about this guy, but I think that is basically his goal in this case. If you are the type that wants to protest Military funerals, burn the flag in front of a VFW or 100 other things that might piss people off or make them uncomfortable that is well within your rights to do it all (like open carry in a town where no one does it and be spring loaded with an attitude) and by all means go at it....

I on the other hand will I keep mine concealed and not bother others who may not fully understand.

From what I saw, everyone did exactly the right thing.

No one was hurt. No laws were broken. No harm. No foul.

reply to post by WhatAreThey

My standards are obviously just higher than yours.

Expecting honesty is a low standard?

I simply acknowledge the fact that it was possible for the cop to have lied and he did not.

... within the realms of that questioning being warranted in the first place.

The guy was not formally questioned. The cop asked him his name.

And we don't know the situation from the other side. What did the guy with the camera look like? How was he acting beforehand? I have stopped and talked to people walking down the road in front of my house many times... if they look like they might be out looking for trouble, I stop and ask "Can I help you?"

Again, there was no force used, no official detainment, no arrest, no charges. All the cop did was talk to him and ask his name.

Probable cause is what police establish, and probable cause is defined as a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime.

Or has an intent to commit a crime.

It's not illegal until it becomes harassment, which was what was clearly happening to the man in the video. He wasn't just asking a question, but asking to see the man's ID. Over, and over.

That is harassment to you? Then get ready to be harassed a lot in life.

Harassment is following someone every time they drive within jurisdiction, waiting to catch a wobble. Harassment is questioning someone every day for a month trying to find something, anything, to arrest them on. I saw harassment when I was younger... got news for ya, this ain't it.

If a common citizen did this to a mailman, for example, it would be a federal offense.

Title and code, please? Where is it illegal to ask a mailman for their ID?

False right out of the gate. There exist no federally mandated police investigatory guidelines that blanket every jurisdiction.

You are aware there are laws other than Federal? Most jurisdictions (around here anyway) require that any complaint be investigated. It makes sense to at least listen to a complaint. That doesn't mean every complaint results in an arrest; most probably don't. It's just a way to make sure that armchair lawyers don't bankrupt the city because a call was ignored.

It is more the case that the police WILL NOT INVESTIGATE a complaint if no probable cause exists and/or you can not provide evidence to back up your complaint. This certainly won't stop them from asking, lying to you (as you appear to agree with), or trying to assume their way into your household and manufacturing "consent" or seizing your property.

But since honesty is such a low standard, all that isn't a problem, right?

Such an outcry over asking for ID... it makes me wonder what the outcry would be if he had been ignored and found out later he was mentally ill and meaning to kill someone. According to what I have read so far, you would still blame the cop, only this time for not checking.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by roadgravel

Originally posted by fourthmeal
The sooner regular people realize that these open-carry and CCW folks are the SHEEPDOGS, we protect the flock by having TEETH. As responsible gun owners we understand that evil exists, and we fear no evil at the same time.

Understand?

I see you point and understand the concept, but, how often does one of these people actually prevent a crime against someone else.

I am pro gun ownership, just in case that statement sounds otherwise.

You've often heard the phrase, 'an armed society is a polite society', right? Just the mere presence of defensive weapons against, say, a would-be rapist will deter the person. There is a direct consequence of their attempt, not just the consequence of their deed. You see, the point of CCW is to blend in with the masses, BE the masses, but when SHTF there is a resistance to the free-for-all attitude the would-be bad guy has in his mind. If 10% of the people on the street were CCW, I guarantee you that crimes would pretty much drop to zero. You see, criminals don't get CCW. They just get a gun through the black market and stuff it in their pants, and go rob somebody. But CCW holders do not. In fact, I think prior to the Trayvon Martin case, I don't think a CCW has ever been implicated in a gun-related crime. It has been a while since I looked up the stats but I can tell you that the violent crime rate in CCW-allowed states is FAR less than non. And that makes sense, the criminals don't want bullets in them.

The only thing I have to say about CCW is if you have one, and you're not carrying every day (that you can), then you aren't holding up to your end of the deal. The deal is you choose to be a sheepdog, and that's what you are. You protect the flock. And sheepdog that doesn't have its teeth is just as useless as the sheep. A .25 auto is better than nothing. If you are a CCW then you do it, plain and simple.

...And I might add, may you NEVER have to use it. That's the point. I have airbags on my car, would I not have them installed on days I don't expect to get into a wreck?

Originally posted by Ben81

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by Ben81

 

No worries, buddy.

Forgot to say

S&F

This video is bound to make for a great discussion.

yeah it will create a 2 sided debate for sure.. the usual on ATS

on why the supersivor didnt back up his collegue cop on this
if i was a cop i would check everyone identity especially guys with guns showing it on their belt


btw Still vote for you has GST FOR REGENT

little bit of publicity sometimes is good

TRUTH_2012

edit on 6/24/2012 by Ben81 because: (no reason given)

Actually that is the very issue. They had no right to do so, OC is not an issue. You cannot run someone's ID through your computers in an OC situation in a state where it is legal to do so, for OC does not give you reasonable suspicion.

In order to legally and constitutionally stop him and ask for ID, he would need to match the description of a known suspect for a crime (ie. a domestic case where the suspect was fleeing or armed robbery or assualt, etc. And he matched a description.)

The whole point of this video was that, stopping a person on the grounds of OC being the reasonable grounds is unlawful.

Originally posted by Ryanssuperman
I think its ridiculous to allow a man to walk down the street with a firearm and not be able to request ID or a permit (assuming a permit is required).

I'm all of civilian rights, however, in Canada, the police are allowed to request identification regardless of if they suspect you of a crime. I think this is a safe practice ... and doesn't infringe on our rights.

The guy recording could have been a multitude of things ... criminal, escaped convict, not allowed to carry firearms ect. To be able to get away without identifying this individual is crazy.

I've not heard of this. And I'm Canadian. There is a difference between doing something and having no one question you, or someone challenging this with case law. Even between Legislation or true common law, and constitution. Legislation is NOT law, even in Canada.