Cops Attempt to Detain a guy with a gun, Supervisor comes in ..Can i have my gun back Sir ? .. Yup !

As I understand the law, the cop was within his rights to demand ID. If not, all he had to say was that he had suspicion the guy might be a felon.

It is not illegal to openly carry a firearm (or 8 of them at once, for that matter, down the streets of Birmingham ) but it will get every cop within 5 miles on alert. Is that a violation of my rights? Nope. If stopped, I identify myself and explain why I am openly carrying a firearm. That cop doesn't know who I am, and is understandably scared. Where is the harm to me in defusing the situation?

Now, if there is an attempt to arrest me for carrying an open firearm, well, I suppose I would surrender the weapons (demanding a receipt of course) and comply. They have to let me out within 24 hours or charge me, and in either case I have access to a lawyer.

There are too many people trying this today IMHO. Too many who ride the edge of the law and taunt those charged with upholding it. They usually wind up making a mistake sooner or later, and find themselves in deep trouble because of it.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Ark005

How many times do you think someone can keep their cool when they encounter someone who 1) has no apparent respect for law enforcement, 2) thinks he knows everything about the situation he is causing, and 3) is acting obviously confrontational.

The cop has no option other than keeping his cool. If he was to lose his cool over someone not breaking any law, knowing their rights, and being right?

1. Why should he show respect for someone who is harassing him without cause? He did not say one disrespectful word, and standing your legal ground is not disrespectful
2. He knows enough to know he was right and the cop was wrong, how is that a bad thing?
3. The police stopped and detained him, he did not confront the police. How is that acting confrontational?

The police have to respect the law just as much as any every day citizen, they can not, and should not, be allowed a blank check to do what they want to whoever they want. If the person in the video was wrong, they would have charged him, but he wasn't. The cop has no right to detain, or question him.

DC

Originally posted by Ben81
Yes .. resisting of showing your identity and even your first name will bring more questions

It shouldn't. However, cops have come to think that they are the supreme rulers of the people, unquestionable. I don't have a problem with a cop asking, but I expect that cop should know the laws related to the situation first, and accepting of the legal behavior of the person being detained. The person wasn't driving a vehicle he was walking. A person shouldn't have to present 'papers' or any reason to a legal authority without suspicion criminal behavior, commission of a crime, or arrest.

not providing your idenity so the cop can valid your gun permit

There are something like 13 or 14 states that require a permit to open carry. There are more states where you don't need a permit to open carry. In this case, it appears it is in a state where a permit is not required, therefor the identity of the man in question without probable cause was unwarranted.

Originally posted by xDeadcowx
reply to post by Ark005

 

How many times do you think someone can keep their cool when they encounter someone who 1) has no apparent respect for law enforcement, 2) thinks he knows everything about the situation he is causing, and 3) is acting obviously confrontational.

The cop has no option other than keeping his cool. If he was to lose his cool over someone not breaking any law, knowing their rights, and being right?

1. Why should he show respect for someone who is harassing him without cause? He did not say one disrespectful word, and standing your legal ground is not disrespectful
2. He knows enough to know he was right and the cop was wrong, how is that a bad thing?
3. The police stopped and detained him, he did not confront the police. How is that acting confrontational?

The police have to respect the law just as much as any every day citizen, they can not, and should not, be allowed a blank check to do what they want to whoever they want. If the person in the video was wrong, they would have charged him, but he wasn't. The cop has no right to detain, or question him.

DC

edit on 6/24/2012 by xDeadcowx because: (no reason given)

He could have become one of those cops you hear about abusing his power. He made the right choice by what he did, but that doesn't mean he could have done it differently.

1) The officer was most likely responding to a call about the guy carrying the gun. And you are required in all 50 states to provide ID when asked by an officer. The entire premise of the film is disrespectful due to the fact I would be willing to put money down to the fact the film-maker was trying to get something more out of the officer.
2) It doesn't matter if he is right or wrong. If the officer gets a call he has to investigate. If stand out he can ask you the basic question of who you are.
3) Every word and action the man did was to infuriate the officer, constantly ignoring the officers request, demanding his weapon returned. The man was trying to get some police brutality in tape, I think (now that I watch it again) that the supervisor knew it.

I don't think you or the film maker fully understand how most of the laws work.
You CAN be detained for no reason more than you are in the wrong place at the right time.
You HAVE to provide ID when ask by a law enforcement official.
Because you may know some cases and laws does NOT give you the right to be a royal asshat.

Originally posted by Ark005
1) The officer was most likely responding to a call about the guy carrying the gun. And you are required in all 50 states to provide ID when asked by an officer. The entire premise of the film is disrespectful due to the fact I would be willing to put money down to the fact the film-maker was trying to get something more out of the officer.
2) It doesn't matter if he is right or wrong. If the officer gets a call he has to investigate. If stand out he can ask you the basic question of who you are.
...
You CAN be detained for no reason more than you are in the wrong place at the right time.
You HAVE to provide ID when ask by a law enforcement official.

I tend to agree that this guy was looking for something, but at the same time, your wrong about the ID thing.

There is no federal law mandating that we must provide identification when asked by police with regards to walking around. Driving is another matter.

There are many states that have “stop and identify” laws that require people to produce identifications if they are being legally detained. Legal detention requires that the police have a reasonable suspicion you have committed or are about to commit a crime.

If that had been the case, he would at a minimum provide his name.

reply to post by Wolf321


Let me guess Texas and Louisiana lol

reply to post by Wolf321


I don't think it is on a federal level. I think it may be something that each state wrote into law, but I also don't have laws memorized for the hell of it. I could be overreaching on it but I wouldn't be surprised if it does exist.
As for the detention thing, I believe he was technically at the time being detained, but again I don't know the legal definition.

To be honest I fully believe the film-maker was in the wrong for this. Yes, cops are not the god-like beings some of them believe themselves to be, but that doesn't give people the right to go out of their way to make trouble for them.

Originally posted by Ryanssuperman
I think its ridiculous to allow a man to walk down the street with a firearm and not be able to request ID or a permit (assuming a permit is required).

I'm all of civilian rights, however, in Canada, the police are allowed to request identification regardless of if they suspect you of a crime. I think this is a safe practice ... and doesn't infringe on our rights.

The guy recording could have been a multitude of things ... criminal, escaped convict, not allowed to carry firearms ect. To be able to get away without identifying this individual is crazy.

Permit is generally for "concealed carry". Open carry is different and allowed without permit in many juridictions.

reply to post by Ark005

Someone walking down the street will scare people who aren't familiar with the laws will call it in.

Yeah and if they aren't familiar with the laws then they shouldn't be calling the damn police based on things they don't understand. And what kind of idiot doesn't realize it's perfectly legal to a carry a gun with a permit...

That being said the person filming seemed a little on the confrontational side, like he was trying to get a specific response from the officer. These types of people are as much a problem as the over zealous cops out there.

What, because he wouldn't provide his name or ID and wanted his gun back? Well guess what, he was stopped based on completely bogus grounds, they had no legal basis for taking his gun and requesting his ID. He had no reason to "comply" with their stupid ass commands because there was no legitimate legal reason for them to be issuing such commands. He was doing nothing except exercising the rights given to him by the law of the land. If everyone were to simply do anything the police say, even when they have no valid legal basis, then the those laws protecting citizens may as well not exist.

Originally posted by Ark005
Yes, cops are not the god-like beings some of them believe themselves to be, but that doesn't give people the right to go out of their way to make trouble for them.

And I think that this video was a best case scenario. You have bad cops. You have people who want to actively go out of their way to expose bad cops, or worse, put otherwise good cops in a situation where because of confusion, lack of knowledge or whatnot, do something bad.

I am glad we have people who do film incidents of cops behaving badly. It makes all law enforcement have to know their stuff and remember they are not above people because of their uniform.

I do think that this guy was looking to play the victim or hero, which may be ethically wrong, but at least he was being legally right.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Ark005

 

Yeah and if they aren't familiar with the laws then they shouldn't be calling the damn police based on things they don't understand. And what kind of idiot doesn't realize it's perfectly legal to a carry a gun with a permit...

What, because he wouldn't provide his name or ID and wanted his gun back? Well guess what, he was stopped based on completely bogus grounds, they had no legal basis for taking his gun and requesting his ID. He had no reason to "comply" with their stupid ass commands because there was no legitimate legal reason for them to be issuing such commands. He was doing nothing except excerpting the rights given to him by the law of the land. If everyone were to simply do anything the police say, even when they have no valid legal basis, then the those laws protecting citizens may as well not exist.

2 words: Public Safety
If you openly have a gun and someone has called it in, they can detain you. If you haven't done anything wrong, they let you go. Simple as that.
Now I'm not saying that we should be the mindless sheep (thanks for that by the way), I'm saying stop going out looking for these situations.
And it's not what he did it's how he was going about it. The film-maker was trying to get the officer to do something other than what happened.
As I said before these people are a part of the problem.

Originally posted by Wolf321

And I think that this video was a best case scenario. You have bad cops. You have people who want to actively go out of their way to expose bad cops, or worse, put otherwise good cops in a situation where because of confusion, lack of knowledge or whatnot, do something bad.

I am glad we have people who do film incidents of cops behaving badly. It makes all law enforcement have to know their stuff and remember they are not above people because of their uniform.

I do think that this guy was looking to play the victim or hero, which may be ethically wrong, but at least he was being legally right.

Again I have to agree with you here.
Yes, cops should remember that they serve the public.
Yes, they are not above the law.
Yes, people should not go out and force these situations.

It is a sad state of affairs when this stuff happens (both outcomes).

reply to post by Ark005

You HAVE to provide ID when ask by a law enforcement official.

No, you don't "have" to, unless suspected of committing a crime.

This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

Nonetheless, carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop-and-identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2008, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity.

When do I have to show police my ID?

The officer in the video clearly stated he was not suspected of any felonious activity. The officer clearly reiterates that the only reason he was detained was because he was carrying a gun, and since that is not a crime there was no valid legal reason compelling this citizen to show his ID... just because he chooses to use the rights given to him by the damn law does not make him an "asshat", it makes him an informed individual who doesn't see a reason for bending over and conforming to the commands of people who have no legal grounds for commanding him to do such things. As I said, if everyone were just intimidated little girls who do everything these thugs say, then the laws protecting citizens may as well not exist in the first place!

reply to post by Ark005

The film-maker was trying to get the officer to do something other than what happened.

Yes.... I'm sure he called the police on himself and set this whole thing up to end in himself being beaten up.

Grow a brain... this guy was only requesting things that were completely on the side of the law, the police were the ones out of line here. They intruded on his rights and made invalid commands... just because he didn't comply to those bogus commands doesn't mean he was trying to "start something".

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Ok, I learned something new.

And this may the reason that they let him go.
Personally I would have just given him my ID, I have nothing to hide.

reply to post by Ark005

I have nothing to hide

Ahhh the typical mating call of the submissive sheeple...
“If you’ve done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.”

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Ark005

 

The film-maker was trying to get the officer to do something other than what happened.

Yes.... I'm sure he called the police on himself and set this whole thing up to end in himself being beaten up.

Grow a brain... this guy was only requesting things that were completely on the side of the law, the police were the ones out of line here. They intruded on his rights and made invalid commands... just because he didn't comply to those bogus commands doesn't mean he was trying to "start something".

edit on 25/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

It's not what he did and/or said that leads me to that conclusion.
It's the facts that:
1) Not many people know about open carry laws and will call it in.
2) How many people walk around with a gun in the open and a camera (note I acknowledge that this could have been a cell-phone)
3) The film-maker conveniently know cases and laws specifically linked to this issue.

This screams set-up.

If I had a 'license' to use an illegal substance and stood on the street using it, would you expect a cop to ignore me, or see if I actually did have a 'license'?

How can the idiot not reasonably expect to be questioned, in a country where people shoot people en masse? I appreciate the guys right to carry, but a little common sense would help also. Seems to me he is doing it to be purposely antagonistic. No one can seriously expect to openly carry, legal or not, and not be questioned.

It's not illegal to be naked in the street where I live, but if people call and complain the cops will make them cover up.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Ark005

 

I have nothing to hide

Ahhh the typical mating call of the submissive sheeple...
“If you’ve done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.”

Yes, because stating that I would make things easier for myself means that I am one of the sheeple.

reply to post by Ark005

1) Not many people know about open carry laws and will call it in.

Once again I must... so what? There is nothing illegal about what he was doing, and calls by idiots who fail to know the law is not a legitimate reason to detain this guy when he isn't suspected of any criminal activity.

2) How many people walk around with a gun in the open and a camera (note I acknowledge that this could have been a cell-phone)
3) The film-maker conveniently know cases and laws specifically linked to this issue.

He probably has a camera (which was most likely just a phone camera) and he probably knows these laws because he has probably been harassed multiple times by cops trying to overstep their god damn bounds. Are you aware that this happened in the United States right? But I bet you wish no one was allowed to carry guns, and you probably support the police who harass every single person who likes to carry a gun. This is exactly how they will phase out gun ownership, inch by inch they will take away your rights... first it starts by harassing everyone who carried a gun, until virtually no one carries a gun. Then they will say "oh well no one carries a gun anymore, lets just make it illegal to carry a gun". Your attitude is completely pathetic...