Ultimatum that faces us! (MUST READ!)

reply to post by TechUnique


Socialism is better than capitalism in many fronts (especially in leveling the social structure and plan for the future of citizens) but if unchecked, in exactly opposition to capitalism (that tends to full individual freedom, unless intervened) it can become all controlling (unless intervened).

The duality is based ultimately in human nature and strictly depends on the level of civility of a society. Since humans are generally not very pleasant to each-other, in most situations but even more if facing scarcity of resources (like we are increasingly facing, be it energy or water) and civility being the exception in most societies, with probably exception to the extreme north of Europe (mostly socialist) like Sweden or even Denmark. The path that seems to work best at the moment is to have a socialist state.

Pure capitalism (without state interference) should have worked better than it did, especially in face to the past abundance of resources, the problem is that the state undermined capitalism and social relations (the creation of the corporation for instance). I doubt that socialism will work much better but the examples seem to indicate that it should work better than the now completely broken capitalism system most of us live in, that is now unworkable since even if fixed the age of exponential growth has ended.

One only needs to understand that the core problems remain the same, us, people, and that until we can get rid of the state completely, we should not let socialism to take over every corner of society...

Anhilation of All Living things on the planet is the way to go.


This time no one gets away including hyperdimensionals spirits etc
Much better idea...very definite and final.

ALL YOU NEED IS ONE THING AND THAT IS LOVE!

LOVE SUPERCEDES EVERYTHING AND THROUGH UNIVERSAL LOVE, CONSTANT HARMONY BETWEEN MAN AND THE UNIVERSE CAN BE ACHIEVED!!!

END THE NEW WORLD ORDER!
END THE ILLUMINATI, ROSICRUCIANS, FREEMASON, SATANISTS!
END THE SECRETS THAT WOULD KEEP EVERY DAY PEOPLE ENSLAVED!

No thank you! There are too many things about socialism that I do not agree with. Starting with the most basic that true socialists advocate a completely classless society, where the government controls all means of production and distribution of goods.

Governments can not and should not be trusted to be in absolute control of anything.

How about we just live? Why does there always have to be a system in place? Be like the animals we see, free in life and what not. Just be ourselves ffs... how nice would it be if we didn't have to rely on money to live or some government? People giving each other foods from the land and clothing from hemp and such. No one's worrying how much cash they have or if they'll make it the next day cause they know the community and neighbors around them will help. This is what we need, no more politics, no more war, no more LIES.... just join together and live peacefully.

Or is this too hard?

Capitalism works corporatism enslaves. There is a very BIG difference in the two. Corporations have hijacked capitalism by lobbying the hell out of Washington.

Where has socialism worked? All the socialist governments are weak and their people are not happy... Take a look at Europe.

We need to get back to pure capitalism without lobbying without bailouts. What's unsustainable is bailing out big companies like GM. Where if capitalism were allowed to work it would have been broken up and sold to other companies and reworked.

I don't think you understand what Capitalism truly is my friend.

I am not responsible for you or your socialist ilk nor will I ever be regardless of how bad you want your equality. Ill work hard and earn what I want and to hell with anyone who wants a slice of mine.

Ill choose when and to whom I will be charitable. Americans are good at being charitable. The best in the world actually. I'm sorry but I am unapologetic and have no desire to join the "collective".

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by TechUnique

 

Human made systems, all of them, religion, politics, economic are all corrupt to the core. Every last one of them. I wonder if humans are capable of designing and implementing a system that works and benefits everyone. So far I see no evidence that this is possible.

Not as long as money exists. I imagine a world without money. And I see a much nicer place for everyone.

Got to agree with you on that one Rand....

But it's hard to take a banana from an 800 lb gorilla

Originally posted by Meaningless
How about we just live? Why does there always have to be a system in place? Be like the animals we see, free in life and what not. Just be ourselves ffs... how nice would it be if we didn't have to rely on money to live or some government? People giving each other foods from the land and clothing from hemp and such. No one's worrying how much cash they have or if they'll make it the next day cause they know the community and neighbors around them will help. This is what we need, no more politics, no more war, no more LIES.... just join together and live peacefully.

Or is this too hard?

Don't get me wrong I would love to see this but we have strayed way too far away from that to go back now IMO. We need to try something that can ride with the already existing system in place. Unless there was a worldwide power dismantling I don't think anarchism could work..

Maybe it could but its a massive risk.

reply to post by TechUnique


I think something along the lines of socialism wouldn't be a bad idea, I also like the idea of a revolution by getting young people interested in politics... eventually, they will begin to become elected officials and a large portion of the voting population.

I always thought that it would be a good idea to have a society where one could still work hard to achieve some wealth, like getting a doctorate, or starting a small business, while those with little money weren't completely screwed over and were able to have a decent lifestyle as well.

I think our society, especially in the last few years, is becoming one without much of a middle-class - there are the rich, who control politics, and there are the poor, who don't even have enough time or money to pursue any of their own goals, have a decent lifestyle, or improve their lives.

I have been meaning to do some reading on the subject so I can be more informed.

Originally posted by Covertblack

Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by TechUnique

 

Human made systems, all of them, religion, politics, economic are all corrupt to the core. Every last one of them. I wonder if humans are capable of designing and implementing a system that works and benefits everyone. So far I see no evidence that this is possible.

That sir is the problem. Socialism works great in a computer model. Throw people into the mix and it fails.

Prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, Socialism in most west european countries worked just fine. See Austria, Sweden, Denmark etc. Only after the West had no more need to "play nice" since the Warpac had dissolved, did the true side and ugly face of all out capitalism emerge, And now look at the so called Euro zone. The so called "free market" is the problem. Because its only "free" for the most ruthless bully on the block.

Originally posted by TechUnique
This is exactly why the revolution needs to start with the youth! Its such a hard task but we can't just lie down and get raped until lose all humanity and do literally become nothing more than cattle.

I am waiting for this. But so far to my dismay, unlike us guys during the 60's and 70's, for today's youth it seems more important to have 19,000 "friends" on facebook than any actual "action". However I am glad to see at least "ONE" person as you to realize what has to be done.

Originally posted by MaMaa
No thank you! There are too many things about socialism that I do not agree with. Starting with the most basic that true socialists advocate a completely classless society, where the government controls all means of production and distribution of goods.

Governments can not and should not be trusted to be in absolute control of anything.

While I agree the youth of the world have a better drive for political ideology, I think throwing your eggs into one basket is especially dangerous. To run to a banner just because it sounds good doesn't make it a good idea. Considering that history has proven otherwise time and time again.

We need a change yes....but think more along the lines of a universalist.

In september 1989, a huge number of KGB spies infiltrated Romania through Ukraine and Republic of Moldavia. The spies were sent because the leader, Ceausescu was becoming more and more atracted to the West and becoming more of a western socialism. The spies infiltrated the country and started an acumulation of rage in the people, using their semi-famine and inexistent diversity of goods. 3 months before this, a smaller group of spies created the National Salvation Front which will play an important roll.

On December 16th people, mostly students, assembled on the steps of the Hungarian Reformed Church in Timisoara to support pastor Laszlo Tokes and prevent exile that he was supposed to undergo for comments against the regime. The spies paid the students to start chanting against the regime. The security forces came at the church to prevent violence and escalation. After some of the students started throwing rocks at the police, violence began and the police were forced to start a shooting. After the shooting some of the students were dead.
After hearing this, more people flooded the streets of Timisoara and started chanting against the regime. More police were mobilized. After hearing this over Radio Free Europe, people in other cities flooded the streets and started chanting, under the guide of the spies (there are some pictures of these spies, people in black clothing with walkie talkies, giving orders in russian). On Dec. 21, Ceausescu addressed the asembly at Revolution Square (the name was changed to this after the fall of the regime) but people continued the violence, although he asked what they want, make demands (he still thought people loved him and diplomacy will work).

In the rest of the country, military were dispatched to hunt the russian spies, naming them terrorists. Some of them were shot in the cemetary not too far from my house, my mother took one in our home because he was shot in the leg and hemoraging.

The NSF started broadcasting anti regime propaganda over the national television station after they captured it by using violence and beating some of the people working there.

On Dec. 22 the minister of defence died under suspicious circumstances and with the NSF strongly holding the broadcasting stations, started saying that Ceausescu killed him himself for refusing to order the military to fire on the demonstrators. Insiders said that General Milea commited suicide because his treasonous acts were uncovered along with his connections with the NSF. The death of Gen. Vasile Milea turned the army against the regime.

At 12:08, December 22, Ceausescu left for Snagov aboard his personal helicopter. There he realised that he was on his own now. Needing to escape the took to the road because the skies weren't safe anymore. He flagged a car of a local bycicle repair man who took them to an agricultural institute to hide. There he locked the leader and his wife who were arrested at 3 PM.

On December 24th the leader of the NSF, Ion Iliescu signed an executive order for the trial of the Ceausescus to be held the next day.

On December 25th they were trialed for 2 hours and senteced to death. The execution took place after 10-20 minutes, in the courtyard.

The purpose of the revolution was to make Ion Iliescu the new leader of the country who whould be under the rule of Russia but soon after this the Soviet Union fell so this idea was abandoned.

The NSF became a pseudo government. and shortly after Ion Iliescu became president. During his rule he was responsible for ordering some hideous violence and killings of students for which he was never trialed and sentenced. He destroyed most of the country's industry and agriculture through suspicious privatization from which many became rich.

This is the story of the fall of the regime.

There was a social experiment recently in which some money was placed on a table, you could take it, share it, or, give all of it.
There was also an opportunity to cheat the other person out of it.
What they found was statistically overall was poorest people were wiling to share the money, the richest people was the group that was most likely to try and cheat you out of it.
This result exemplifies what happens in society, those that really know how much money is worth, those that struggle on a day to day basis, are willing to alleviate the suffering of those around them, the richest people, who already have more than enough, will try to take more.
They do not have a real understanding of what money is to someone.
All they know is it gets them everything they want, whenever they want it.
The poor know, money provides enough to live on, sometimes.
Extrapolate this social tendency into politics, and you will find a bunch of people who will never give you what you should have, and, will always be in control.
No matter the political ideology, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, any kind of socialism, or, democracy are subject to the idioms of those in control, the pigs will always hold aces.
And you know why?
Because people are stupid enough to participate.

reply to post by constantwonder

But it's hard to take a banana from an 800 lb gorilla

The day will come.

I'm an American, Socialism to me - means - People I dont know making decisions I dont agree with and forcing me to abide by. screw that. there is two parties under Socialism - the masses and the kings... screw that...
Capitalism works - but it can not work with a socialist monitary system of fiat currency. as the kings will devalue and devalue and devalue their way to wealth as they can use the fiat money first - Capitalism only works with a finite resource which limits the amount without the kings input.
America had such a Economy it was extremely successful - it was honorable - it was just.... that was until Equity or Stocks were invented. Criminals had a job - they could create fiat wealth, in the guise of a return - Greed - which ultimately killed real wealth/real money Silver/Gold ... Corporations are Evil - look what they have done to America - Corporations are good look what they have done for America. Gold and Silver is wealth - Federal Reserve Notes is Debt with interest..... its so easy to choose... and so hard to understand.... yet so elementary. YouTube The Secret of OZ for how the American System is suppose to work.... oh and corporations were basically chartered by the states and feds until the early 1900's - guess when our major problems began ?

Nevermind.

[sorry]

reply to post by TechUnique
It's like Garden said, all we need is love! The kind of love that has you care for people you know? If we all can recognize this and open our arms up to each other I'm sure we'd all be friends in a heartbeat. We just can't continue to follow systems... it's too hard for us especially with all the divide and conquer tactics governments use. They are destroying the environment and stealing our worth in life.

Yes a revolution is long over due, and trust me the people where I live are gearing up and getting ready to fight the good fight on the first sign. It's like everyone is on the edge waiting for the first group to make a move... and the time to do so is closing soon sadly, they want world war and they want most of us dead.

You need to believe in a life without government and then help make it happen. It will be hard but it's not impossible, nothing ever is.

Originally posted by TechUnique
I don't know how much more I can stress this.. I'm joining a local socialist group. I suggest you all at least consider the same.

If you care that you're being #ed anyway. Maybe you enjoy being democratically #ed. At least its democratic

Why did Lenin state "The best revolutionary is a youth devoid of morals"?
Think about why our nation has gone from a society that agreed on Biblical morality to a nation of youth who now trumpet their love of drugs, sex, abortion rights and evil and mightily declare that there is no god, in a matter of sixty years. Guess what you willl find? A society socially engineered to raise up that youthful generation of revolutionaries. So instead of jumping on the communism bandwagon, understand that everything in the media has been engineered to MAKE YOU CRY FOR REVOLUTION AND MAKE YOU WANT THEM TO DICTATE EVERY SECOND OF YOUR EXISTENCE.

45 Steps to Communism. Look it up and contemplate. Then seek the God of Truth in repentance.

reply to post by constantwonder
thank you, could not have said it better myself...