It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Ultimatum that faces us! (MUST READ!)

page: 2
9
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 07:58 PM
link   
Chavez got his country out from under the boot of the IMF might be some lessons to be learned there. Iceland is setting some good examples.




posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 08:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Ladysophiaofsandoz
 


without the oil chavez would be dead.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 08:13 PM
link   
reply to post by bjax9er
 


Good point. It hasn't played out yet, I am curious to see what happens



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 08:33 PM
link   
Socialism has never been given a try?

Please go speak with people from the eastern block and ask how it worked out there.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 08:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by bjax9er
reply to post by PlanetXisHERE
 

capitalism is the most compassionate form of govn't/economics. how smart you are doesn't matter. no one is equal in value or class. in capitalism you are equal in opportunity. you only get what YOU strive for. you are free to do what you want, when you want, and how you want. this is human nature.

The United States of America, has given trillions of $$ of it's wealth away to 3rd world countries and devloping countries. is that not compassion. how much has greece given, or n. korea or china or the soviet union or the list goes on. yes i mean TRILLIONS.

it is a nation of laws. it is a Republic.

Think with reason and experience. Not emotion.


I'm sorry, I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation, I think you are naive. But I used to have similar thoughts until I learnd the truth.

Stop watching TV news, tv programs (why do you think they call it programming?) and newspapers - any mass media. Open your eyes, learn some truths, and then we can have an intelligent coversation.

Here are a few place to start, and I don't agree with all and some are not well written, but at least half are very illuninating (no pun intended):

On secret government
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

On media control
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Don't get depressed about this, knowledge is power.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 09:16 PM
link   
reply to post by TechUnique
 

May I ask for a little clarification? You support "reformist socialism." What is that? Is there still ownership of the means of production by the state (or its agencies and appointees) Will there be economic planning where each industry is given a certain amount to produce? Who makes economic decisions? What will be done in "reformist socialism" that will prevent the problems arising from traditional socialism?

If you have the time, I'd appreciate more specificity.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 09:20 PM
link   
reply to post by PlanetXisHERE
 


yeah, i havn't watched tv in nearly two years. i read and read alot.

i read alot of philosophy
a communist manifesto
platos republic
john locke
two books i recommend to you and everyone
liberty and tyranny
ameritopia

not really in to the conspiracy thing, although thats what brought me to ats.
i do however know that the american govn't is corrupt to the very top.
capitalism is the most compassionate system there is, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.
i may sound naive, maybe because i want to say so many things at once, but i'am anything but.
believe me when i say, i have lived.
edit on 24-6-2012 by bjax9er because: i do like your signature



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 09:40 PM
link   
reply to post by bjax9er
 


Please don't be complicit in denialism or attempting to convince me that "into" is two words or "a lot" is one.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 09:44 PM
link   
With all the other # going on, you care about grammar?



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 09:47 PM
link   
reply to post by Anonymous404
 


oh your so smart.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 11:20 PM
link   
Op you really have no clue what your talking about , socialism will never work when human will is involved it sound great on paper but add human will, human error and everyone else that makes us human it will never work , there can't and won't ever be co ownership of anything as there will always be someone who wants a bigger piece of the pie as that's human nature , socialist countries tend to always turn into dictatorships , and that's something this country and the world dosent need anymore of , socialism and communism are the two worst forms of government because like I said they usually turn into dictatorships , go to any socialist or communist country and see how "great" hey have it , I promise you their country is a # hole , but only because of how it's run , and the people aren't treated very well either , again because of their government , usually the ones in charge keep everything for themselves so they can stay in power , but that's now how one two forms of government work , but again because of human nature , there will ALWAYS be someone who wants to remain in charge , they just won't work , I've seen these countries under this type of rule first hand and it Is NOT pretty at all , I don't want that crap in my country , yippeeee socialism where the citizens have no voice and it's shut the hell up and do what I say , no thanks !!!!



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 07:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by bjax9er

yeah, i havn't watched tv in nearly two years. i read and read alot.

i read alot of philosophy
a communist manifesto
platos republic
john locke
two books i recommend to you and everyone
liberty and tyranny
ameritopia


Kudos, that is a good first step.




capitalism is the most compassionate system there is, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

edit on 24-6-2012 by bjax9er because: i do like your signature


This sounds rather closed minded - I agree capitalism has its merits - but to think it is the very best sytem we could possibly ever achieve is rather limiting, don't you think? Isn't that kind of like saying the combustion engine is the best we could ever hope to achieve as a propulsion device?



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 07:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by Covertblack

That sir is the problem. Socialism works great in a computer model. Throw people into the mix and it fails.


Yeah, but that is the thing though, I think that there is not a form of government out there that is not open to at least SOME corruption from people...

I do think that there are some out there that are more easily corruptible than others... But at the same time, many have their fine qualities as well.

There is Socialism even right here in America, you know. Fire Departments, Police Departments, Paramedics, Public School, Public Library, The United States Postal service... Though, arguably, the American education system needs repair, I am quite fond of those other programs.

Socialism does work in a lot of ways. That is not to say that I am ready to up and move to a full on Socialist country or something, I do like how things are run here, generally speaking....

But don't think that socialism fails in every aspect...As I am hoping to imply...It does work in some ways....


Vote Truth_2012


You are correct that all forms of government are apt to corruption. However, I believe corruption in socialism causes more suffering than all forms of government. If the system were such a great thing we wouldn't have people floating over to the US on doors.



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 08:40 AM
link   
I don't really know whose response to answer to but let attempt to clarify a little bit.. baring in mind I'm not an expert I just have a keen interest.

I believe in local based reformist socialism. The people and local councils would have more power over what happens in their area with public votes on major issues and real room for public opinion voicing.

For instance, in a hospital the staff would all have to work out how THEIR hospital runs things, pensions, staffing, hours and wages etc. as they know best.

In a factory (private sector) you would have a similar theme and although obviously the owner of the company would still get cash he would have equal say with the workers who produce the products/services. Therefore the owner would still get more money than the workers but the workers would have fairer wages and working conditions..

I don't mean complete socialism or communism I mean socialist reform of what we already have still leaving room to perform in society and gain wealth. Fairness would be ensured by true local democracy not the left/right farce democracy currently is.

Sorry I can't explain properly I have a long long way to go with it all.



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 10:42 AM
link   
Well, i am living in a former socialist block country so i might as well tell you how it felt like.

It was good, the country had absolutely no debt but this came at a price: 10 years of semi-starvation, we had what ot eat but no diversity but it was ok, clothes were a bit pricy but this was ok, TVs were somewhat of a luxury but you could still get one, same goes with cars. We had one TV station which broadcasted for 2-3 hours a day and some days we had cartoons for the kids.

Education was top notch, education was mandatory and free as i remember same goes with jobs, you were obligated to have a job if you were in good working shape. Industry, commerce and agriculture were all high tech with a huge production that went to export to get rid of the debt.

And most important of all crime rates were incredibly low, i mean one homicide a month or two, premeditated murder, in the urban areas and 10-20 in the rural areas. (people were afraid of the security system that the government put in place) Another factor in this could be that boys were obligated to enrole into the army at 18 for 6 months, this taught respect and discipline.

Now imagine that this was the best communist regime to exist, my country was kind of like a gateway to the west. President Nixon even started making partnerships us and wanted to invest because progress here was very fast, this resulted from a great number of scientists and research institutes.

So this was socialism in a small eastern european country during the communist/socialist era before 1989. After the fall of the regime the country went downhill and it still is.



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 12:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by AlexIR
Well, i am living in a former socialist block country so i might as well tell you how it felt like.

It was good, the country had absolutely no debt but this came at a price: 10 years of semi-starvation, we had what ot eat but no diversity but it was ok, clothes were a bit pricy but this was ok, TVs were somewhat of a luxury but you could still get one, same goes with cars. We had one TV station which broadcasted for 2-3 hours a day and some days we had cartoons for the kids.

Education was top notch, education was mandatory and free as i remember same goes with jobs, you were obligated to have a job if you were in good working shape. Industry, commerce and agriculture were all high tech with a huge production that went to export to get rid of the debt.

And most important of all crime rates were incredibly low, i mean one homicide a month or two, premeditated murder, in the urban areas and 10-20 in the rural areas. (people were afraid of the security system that the government put in place) Another factor in this could be that boys were obligated to enrole into the army at 18 for 6 months, this taught respect and discipline.

Now imagine that this was the best communist regime to exist, my country was kind of like a gateway to the west. President Nixon even started making partnerships us and wanted to invest because progress here was very fast, this resulted from a great number of scientists and research institutes.

So this was socialism in a small eastern european country during the communist/socialist era before 1989. After the fall of the regime the country went downhill and it still is.


Thanks for posting your experiences. Do you think a more socialist approach could work well in an already highly developed western nation?



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 02:36 PM
link   
There is people who will be able to create a stable nongreedy enviroment if they are left alone. But if people cant rise above their own small needs and look for the good of all (with empathy) then they are just a stupid smallminded unevolved monkies and can frankly go up in to the tree where they belong. In the tress they will survive longer since they will not screw up nature as much as they do now in the cities.



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 04:03 PM
link   
reply to post by TechUnique
 


It will work but if you democratize socialism a bit because it can lead to rise of dictators that are not well intended. My country's dictator was well intended although he was uneducated, he was a shoe polisher for the communists in the communist party, until they planned to put him as ruller because they taught he whould be easily manipulated, well he was stronger than they thought and had character.

He ordered the first nuclear plant to be built, the first highway (110km and another 1000 planned to be built in the next 5 years) and he ordered the construction of two important hydroelectrical plants on the Danube.The workforce were construction workers but he also used a lot of prisoners that got paid for their work.

This is an example of a good ruller although he was considered to be a dictator. (Wthy he was taken down although he was good is a long story so maybe another time, this is a good example of propaganda, spies and influence from the KGB)



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 06:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by AlexIR
reply to post by TechUnique
 
It will work but if you democratize socialism a bit because it can lead to rise of dictators that are not well intended. My country's dictator was well intended although he was uneducated, he was a shoe polisher for the communists in the communist party, until they planned to put him as ruller because they taught he whould be easily manipulated, well he was stronger than they thought and had character.

He ordered the first nuclear plant to be built, the first highway (110km and another 1000 planned to be built in the next 5 years) and he ordered the construction of two important hydroelectrical plants on the Danube.The workforce were construction workers but he also used a lot of prisoners that got paid for their work.

This is an example of a good ruller although he was considered to be a dictator. (Wthy he was taken down a lthough he was good is a long story so maybe another time, this is a good example of propaganda, spies and influence from the KGB)


This is very interesting! May I ask what country you live in? Do you know anything more of how your leaders rule was dismantled?

Thanks.



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 06:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by TechUnique
 


Human made systems, all of them, religion, politics, economic are all corrupt to the core. Every last one of them. I wonder if humans are capable of designing and implementing a system that works and benefits everyone. So far I see no evidence that this is possible.


Not as long as money exists. I imagine a world without money. And I see a much nicer place for everyone.



new topics

top topics



 
9
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join