Masonry, the ultimate lie (keep the discourse civil please)

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Interesting then that through the ages they these symbols have been attributed common meaning then.

Really? Do you have an example? Or are you just saying that?

Ea of Babylon was associated with the constellation Capricorn. The sea-goat was a light bearer teaching civilization.

Saturn is associated with the constellation Capricorn. Capricorn being the gate of death which occurs on the winter solstice and the sun exits through cancer during the summer solstice.

Islam's kabba stone which they circle around (like saturn's rings) is encased in a black cube.

The Tau symbol or triple tau of masonry (among others) is associated with Saturn. El of the old testament.

Saturnia was the name of Rome (the origins of operative masonry)

Saturn has a hexagram at its pole which encodes a 3d cube, the by the square of masonry.

Seal of Solomon is a hexagram and it was used to control 'demons'.

Unfold the 3d cube and you get a cross or x.

The baphomet is capricorn (Crowley confirms this) . . . .

It goes on and on through the ages where even Demeter shared the symbolism of Cronus/Saturn with her horn of plenty and association with the harvest and serpents (dragon drawn chariot). That and he is said to have fathered her.

Serpents being the knowledge of the procession through the constellations and milky way being the ourobouros which Saturn is often depicted with.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The Tau symbol or triple tau of masonry (among others) is associated with Saturn. El of the old testament.

Where in Masonry do we associate the triple tau to Saturn?

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Saturnia was the name of Rome (the origins of operative masonry)

According to who is Rome the origin of operative Masonry?

I guess you didn't pay attention when I said symbols have no fixed or exclusive interpretation or definition.

You're a lost cause.

reply to post by KSigMason


OPERATIVE AND SPECULATIVE MASONRY, THE GUILDS AND LIVERY COMPANIES
by BROTHER ALLEN EXLEY, O.B.E., F.R.S.A.
www.grandlodgescotland.com...perative-and-speculative-masonry-the-guilds-and-livery-companies&c atid=55:masonic-articles&Itemid=200

But to continue the story of the Roman Operative Masons, their successors continued to flourish during the twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Being held in high estimation because of their reputation of being superb craftsmen and because cathedral and church building was their main speciality, they were on excellent terms with the clergy and in order perhaps to pay a compliment to their patrons, we find a gradual intake of Accepted or Speculative Masons, among them high Church dignitaries, Bishops and Canons, some of whom, in fact, were quite experienced in the art of ecclesiastical architecture - indeed some were good craftsmen in their own right, but the majority merely interested in the traditional and social aspect of the Craft and their work of benevolence.

At the end of the fourteenth century came the decline of Operative Masons' Guilds. The country had become impoverished by Civil War and with the Dissolution of the Monasteries, Abbeys and Cathedrals, the Masons lost their best supporters. A few truly Operative Lodges remained working for the nobility, building what we now call the Stately Homes of England, but gradually Lodges became more Accepted or Speculative than Operative, and at the end of the seventeenth century only a handful of truly Operative Lodges remained, the majority of which were in northern England and Scotland.

Courtesy of
Magheramorne Masonic Lodge No. 514
Larne, Ireland
mastermason.com...

Many Masonic historians believe that masonry originated in the East -- probably Egypt or China -- and made its way gradually through Asia Minor, Constantinople, Greece, and Cyprus to Rome. It is interesting to note that a Chinese philosopher, Mencius, three hundred years before Christ, wrote, "A man should abstain from doing unto others, what he would not they should do to him, this is called the principle of acting on the square." Mencius, also, wrote, "A Master Mason, in teaching his apprentices, makes use of the Square and Compasses. Ye who are engaged in the pursuit of Wisdom, must also use the Compasses and Square."

As the Romans spread out over the continents, they brought with them a full complement of craftsmen and artificers, among them the "Brotherhood of Masons." They had their own constitutions in both their religious and secular matters, and their organization was a close facsimile of a modern Masonic Lodge. They bound themselves together for various reasons -- for mutual aid and assistance in times of sickness and trouble; for the proper training of apprentices; to set and maintain a very high standard of craftsmanship, and to prevent unscrupulous people from entering the trade or craft. These Roman masons travelled in "colleges" or "lodges". There were many kinds of Masons. Regular Masons were local men, who during the Roman occupation, were regarded as bondsmen and were compelled by law to live and work in the same community year in and year out under local restrictions. Freemasons were of the Roman Collegiates, who were free to travel about the country at will.

Tau
symboldictionary.net...

The Tau or Tav means “cross,” and is the final letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It is numbered 300 in the Greek and 400 in the Hebrew numerical alphabet. The tau corresponds astrologically with the planet Saturn and the concept of finality. The mark was associated with the absolution of sin and may have been the original “mark of Cain” of the Old Testament. In the Hebrew kabbala, the Tav represents the completion of creation and is an emblem of infinity. In the visions of Ezekiel, it is the sign etched on the foreheads of priests and initiates. The Greek Tau is associated with the letter Theta, an emblem of death originally symbolized by a cross in a circle or a skull.

It is assumed the the biblical symbolism of the Tau stems from the ancient cult of Tammuz, a vegetation god whose annual death and resurrection was commemorated by ritual mourners who marked their foreheads with the cross. Tammuz, like Christ, was associated with fishing and shepherding. The Tau cross takes the shape of the letter of his name, and is one of the oldest letters known. The custom of marking the forehead with a cross of ashes as a sign of mourning dates back to these rituals.

. . .

An arrangement of three Taus in a spoked formation is an emblem of the Royal Arch degree of Freemasonry, symbolizing the Temple of Jerusalem.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Interesting articles and opinions.

I guess I'll have to ask you more slowly...Where in MASONRY do we associate the triple tau to Saturn? Just because it has been used in some cultures to associate with the Saturn, but that doesn't mean that is how it is used in Freemasonry. The fact that symbols don't have have exclusive or singular interpretations and uses seem to elude your grasp.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Interesting articles and opinions.

I guess I'll have to ask you more slowly...Where in MASONRY do we associate the triple tau to Saturn? Just because it has been used in some cultures to associate with the Saturn, but that doesn't mean that is how it is used in Freemasonry. The fact that symbols don't have have exclusive or singular interpretations and uses seem to elude your grasp.

Perhaps the higher singular interpretation has eluded your grasp.

You associate the Tau with 'Deity' and I have shown its ties to other deities of history.

The Triple Tau
freemasonry.bcy.ca...

The compound character known as the triple tau is one of the Royal Arch’s emblems. A triple tau is literally “three Tau’s,” the tau being the nineteenth letter in the Greek Alphabet. The triple tau of Royal Arch Masonry consists of 3 Ts linked in the centre joined at their base.

This mystical character can be signified in a few different ways. First, the names Hiram of Tyre and Hiram Abif appear in the Phoenican language with the same letters “H” and “T” as they do in English. Therefore, the Triple
Tau takes on the interpretation of the initial letters in Hiram Abif’s name.

Second, it signifies also T. H., Templum Hierosolym, the Temple of Jerusalem, and when used as the Royal Arch symbol, some jurisdictions teach that the wearer acknowledges himself a servant of God.
Thirdly, Christians in Greek or Roman influence anciently used a tau cross. The basis of a triple tau in early church history would mean the trinity of father, son, and holy spirit. A belief in the triune nature of godhead is common to many faiths and religions.

A triangle is a simple shape in geometry that has taken on great spiritual significance and symbolism. The equilateral triangle was revered by ancient nations as containing the greatest and most abstruse mysteries, and as a symbol of God, denoting a triad of intelligence, a triad of deity, a triune God. The equilateral triangle shows equality with its three angles of the same degrees. In one way, it best represents deity by its equality or perfection in design and proportion.

The triangle is a symbol of divine union, and an emblem of the mysterious triune, equally representing the attributes of deity, and his triune essence: omnipotence (all powerful), omnipresence (eternal) and omniscience (all knowing).

What kind of ancient order changes the meanings of its symbols if it claims secret knowledge?

You may say they were adopted from others then your changing of the meaning defeats the entire point using the symbols.

That or you are using them for the energy they already have to manipulate them to some other purpose which can be viewed as disingenuous.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

OPERATIVE AND SPECULATIVE MASONRY, THE GUILDS AND LIVERY COMPANIES

Oh man....you've got WAY too much time on your hands. Are you a closet mason, just itching to get out?

The only thing I worship.........is my SLEDGEHAMMER! I mean seriously, it sounds like you watch too many horror movies. H.P Lovecraft would have loved this stuff!

reply to post by W3RLIED2


Exactly. I had mentionmed in another thread that those who read anti mason books have never been to a lodge! Mnay say we are evil yet we are not. Also the sex trafficking lie was brought fourth by the Jehova witnesses and is unfounded.

One other issue is that wqe are not shriners, we are Freemasons, big difference! The new lie being spread is that the Masons and Shriners killed Whitney Houston. Nancey Disgrace even went as far as saying " She wanted to know who held Whiney under the water"

Most people are a great source of entertainment hahahahaha~

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


The Grove,cool brother thanks for uploading this! It is one big party!!! Unfortuently only because one is a Mason does not constitute entrance,Matter of fact many who attend the Grove are not Mason,Shriner or Illimunati. I would love to recieve a invitation.

You did know that reporters and authors are regulary invited to the Grove each summer !!

reply to post by SUPERMASON





You arent a Mason. Ill bet my last two nickels.

ETA.... More LOLs at your avatar. You spelled "watching' wrong.

reply to post by SUPERMASON


Not so super spelling, grammar and punctuation! What gives? Seeing as how the adepts of the mysteries who referred to themselves in terms of the rosy cross were the same persons who not only modernized English from "Olde" English but also wrote the ethereal works of dramatic English which have been so wittily attributed to William Shakespeare; it would stand to reason that a SUPERMASON in today's time of auto spell correct should allow for little to no room for errors such as these.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


Haha, do you know how hard i ROFLED when I saw that not only did you call this guy out at the same time as me, but that you thought he was me!!!

Surely you at least hold me at a little higher standard than that!

Happy independence day, W3RLIED2 et al. I don't want you guys to hate me and you may soon be shocked to hear that I am one of your brethren. Consider last week a bachelor party of sorts and I am suffering from conspiracy hangover. I know people got inflamed after I posted so many dozens of articles and videos and stuff. Just trying to get all this **** out of my system and I hope you will view some of my controversial posts as youthful playfulness and vigor.

reply to post by Hardwired


Lol. Greetings, nemesis. It was only me who thought SUPERMASON was you. Glad to know we can still be light spirited about it.

Good luck with your most recent account.

Happy 4th to you, also. Be safe!

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Wow, I guess you really don't get how symbols are arbitrary and ambiguous. I thought it was stubbornness, but I'm starting to think its just ol' ignorance on this one.

reply to post by KSigMason


I may be mistaken but it is my understanding that many masons undergo "symbolism education" which is usually an optional lecture series.

What are they educated in if not the meaning of symbols?

reply to post by Hardwired

The Fraternity does give its interpretation of these symbols through ceremony and lecture, but it also teaches that symbols have no fixed interpretation.

reply to post by KSigMason


Ah, that makes sense. It's established fact that pretty much all the symbols of masonry are older than masonry itself. I can see how they cannot claim ownership of these symbols.

I have heard that the true mystery schools and true secrets have been lost to the ages, if only for man to find again.

reply to post by KSigMason

No, you made statements from which I asked if you could back it up with ritual and you quote public books which are irrelevant to the ritual of Freemasonry.

So you are insinuating that what is presented to the public about masonry is in fact irrelevant, a.k.a. deception.

Should this then be taken as confirmation that what is presented to the public by masonry is in fact BS which would confirm the much spread warnings that masons are in fact 'up to something'?

It is quite nonsensical that all lodges are held to a specific set of rituals and yet the symbols are not the same. You may mean that each person interprets the symbols differently based on their point of view of the teachings, however there is clearly a defined set of definitions if the rituals and symbols are to be used by all the lodges (non-irregular).

By saying I am spouting opinion you are not accepting the fact that all the associations with the symbols provided are historically documented and verifiable, whereas you spew opinion without any documentation.

Until you provide links to any source material or other means of verification you cannot claim any fact on your side.

You have only conjecture.

Conjecture
dictionary.reference.com...

noun
1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

3. Obsolete . the interpretation of signs or omens.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I'm saying what they wrote is their opinion.

Differences exist among Grand Lodges. The Lodges under a said Grand Lodge have the same ritual, but from Grand Lodge to Grand Lodge there exists some differences. It really goes back to the schism in England as well as the influences of Preston and Webb. Personally, I enjoy the differences.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


You have it backwards . Individual Masons form opinions based on experience . By experience we have went through the degrees , conferred the degrees and have been Masons for years . When we go through the degrees in my jurisdiction we tell the candidates the ritual's meaning for a symbol , but we go on to inform them that any deeper meaning they may attribute to said Masonic symbolism is left entirely up to the individual Mason (But you will ignore this little fact) . And since no one Mason speaks for all of Freemasonry , anything said by Masons is opinion , but it is opinions based on PROOF and EXPERIENCE and their own take on the symbolism .

For example , I have read a debate between Masons who attributed some deep meaning to the screw in the Compasses (of the Square and Compasses) . I have seen various opinions on it , but when I look at it I see nothing more than a screw that makes the compass ( one point) into Compasses (two points) that makes the compasses adjustable . So I do not agree with their opinions (but I except their right to hold these opinions) .

These so-called "facts" and "truths" you and so many other anti's spread would be what is called conjecture . You read a few snippets on Masonic symbolism from books written by Masons or take passages out of context , read on some anti-mason site such as cuttingedge.com or just allow your imagination to run wild and this makes you all "experts" . You have never sat in a lodge , have never went through the degrees , have never conferred degrees . So anything non-Masons say about Freemasonry is pure conjecture .


As for what goes on in various jurisdictions , I can only worry about my jurisdiction as my Grand Lodge are the only members who have any say over my membership in the Fraternity . The rules and ritual any other jurisdiction follows concerns me not (other than I find them interesting) .

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


what is it that you are trying to accomplish here? Do you want to prove that you know more about masonry than the members? Do you just want to look like you are intelligent to other haters? Or are you just looking for a scrap?