No more worship of the troops

reply to post by petrus4


Being in the military is a job. It is by choice and if you choose to get shot at good for you because you also signed up to shoot people. There is more than one way to protect your country but you chose to shoot people. which is fine i have no problem with it. I did not join the military because I know they are just pawns.

I made a decision not to be one... I did not want to say "i just follow orders" as an excuse every time I ran into something questionable our government does... had I been extremely ignorant of how governments worked or if i drank from the koolaide they are serving then i would have but I don't think you can serve such a role if you do not agree with everything 100% or enough to just look past the bs.

WW1 and WW2 and even vietnam vets I respect greatly because they really had no choice. The ones who join today... like i said are either ignorant or they are manipulated by their patriotism.


The USA is an empire. I just wish people would understand that. We do not take military actions to police the world to keep peace.. we are just expanding our influence. It is just the stage our country is in right now. And that is okay. I wish everyone in our country understood that so our government didn't have to lie to us to get us into war over resources. I wish they would just come out and say....."hey if you like your american way of life, we need more resources and we want them at a cheap price or we to take it by force. So join the military and support our troops and our foreign policy" we just need to cut through the crap. If our government would actually say that I could have joined because at least I wouldn't have to excuse myself with "i was just following ordres" when confronted with the true intentions behind the military's actions.

Originally posted by votan
reply to post by petrus4

 

Being in the military is a job. It is by choice and if you choose to get shot at good for you because you also signed up to shoot people. There is more than one way to protect your country but you chose to shoot people. which is fine i have no problem with it. I did not join the military because I know they are just pawns.

I made a decision not to be one... I did not want to say "i just follow orders" as an excuse every time I ran into something questionable our government does... had I been extremely ignorant of how governments worked or if i drank from the koolaide they are serving then i would have but I don't think you can serve such a role if you do not agree with everything 100% or enough to just look past the bs.

WW1 and WW2 and even vietnam vets I respect greatly because they really had no choice. The ones who join today... like i said are either ignorant or they are manipulated by their patriotism.


The USA is an empire. I just wish people would understand that. We do not take military actions to police the world to keep peace.. we are just expanding our influence. It is just the stage our country is in right now. And that is okay. I wish everyone in our country understood that so our government didn't have to lie to us to get us into war over resources. I wish they would just come out and say....."hey if you like your american way of life, we need more resources and we want them at a cheap price or we to take it by force. So join the military and support our troops and our foreign policy" we just need to cut through the crap. If our government would actually say that I could have joined because at least I wouldn't have to excuse myself with "i was just following ordres" when confronted with the true intentions behind the military's actions.

Agreed. I think that if the American government was honest about its' imperialism, a lot less people would object to it. As I've said in other threads, it is said dishonesty which is one of the biggest problems.

Originally posted by BrianDamage

Originally posted by michaelbrux
Some of you military bashers need to put your heads on straight.

Fact: Politicians and Lawmakers and by extension the people that elected them are responsible for the wars.

the soldiers that fight in them do what is asked of them and are not capable starting a war;

And if nobody joined the military, they'd have nobody to send.

Ya know, as I was reading the post that you responded to, I was thinking to myself "this is ATS, someone is bound to have a completely asinine response to this, probably suggesting that Americans not join the army in the first place"

Yes, yes. That makes total sense.

Come back to the real world.

Originally posted by BrianDamage

Originally posted by michaelbrux
Some of you military bashers need to put your heads on straight.

Fact: Politicians and Lawmakers and by extension the people that elected them are responsible for the wars.

the soldiers that fight in them do what is asked of them and are not capable starting a war;

And if nobody joined the military, they'd have nobody to send.

I guess you've never heard of selective service and drafting??? It's law.

www.sss.gov...

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


That's not why petrus started this thread.

Every day is NOT memorial day, just like every day is NOT christmas, NOT thanksgiving, NOT halloween, etc.

What's there to be grateful about? Grateful that my rights continue to erode? Grateful that Mexican cartels are inching closer while our troops are overseas playing war?

Originally posted by TheAnarchist

Originally posted by michaelbrux
Some of you military bashers need to put your heads on straight.

Fact: Politicians and Lawmakers and by extension the people that elected them are responsible for the wars.

the soldiers that fight in them do what is asked of them and are not capable starting a war;

So what you're saying is that soldiers volunteer to be child-slaughtering puppets? And we have to put our heads on straight?

In modern society, soldiers are just a PR stunt. An entire war could be fought using machines, intelligence and espionage, and not a single man would have to lay a finger on a trigger.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with the troops. What they were conned into signing up for is tragic, and neither they nor their victims deserve to be dehumanized the way they are. The only hope mankind has for peace is that one day man will be intelligent enough to realize nothing's worth fighting for besides your own freedom. Which will probably never happen because apparently many young people leave the (police) state's education system thinking that joining the military is a good (and even righteous) idea.

And before you say it, being shipped off overseas to shoot black men, women and children isn't freedom, no matter what you label the Operation. Terrorism has always existed and always will, but blanket bombing Arab nations, destabilizing their already unstable governments and then stripping them of resources isn't the way to fix it, believe it or not. And it can hardly be called a "war" by any standard. Western (and eastern) military intervention and occupation of all kinds is responsible for the increase in international terrorism, not fanatical Muslims, Osama or the Middle-East. And state-produced stupid people exacerbate the situation through perpetual complacency and ignorance. It's an infinitely twisted, sad little cycle that we're all forced to endure.

As for other countries, the only reason one first-world nation would launch a full-scale attack on another in this modern day is for a power and control grab (or other petty political or economical reasons caused by the same swine who send us into these silly "wars"). Second and third-world nations wouldn't have a chance (and so "they" resort to terrorism). So explain to me why hundreds of thousands of young men and women are required for cannon fodder in the 21st century? Is there a world shortage of delusional nationalistic patriots that I don't know about?

Fact: blaming policy makers for the destruction that grunts cause is an oxymoron. I can't argue with you that these "elected" representatives are the ones who send us to war, but these fools who put their hands up to be brainwashed into becoming emotionless catatonic government killing tools aren't helping the situation much either. One thing's for sure - this crap isn't going to end on the policy-makers' side. Humanity has to make the first move - by refusing to fight their wars. A crazy idea, I know, but it has to start somewhere if we still want to have a planet to call home in another fifty years.

PS. I mean no disrespect to "conscious" military men - and you know who you are - but from my observation, they are far and too few between.

to answer and discuss your comments would require a mutual understanding concerning things I know I would never be able to convince you of.

but i'll give you this example.

my avatar illustrates the proper relationship between the military to a politician. to suggest that the military starts wars is to argue that the man that wields the sword has no responsibility in how the sword he wears is used. this is obviously false. its the man that wields the sword that must bear all responsibility for how the sword is used. unless you think inanimate objects have secret lives where they do things on their own.

head on straight yet?

soldiers follow orders for their own benefit...that way they remain the sword.

using myself as an example...i've nurtured and protected life when walking through the valley of the shadow of death, i was rewarded with additional life. my sword has never shed blood; i keep it as a teaching tool for my son.

If you are telling me children have been murdered by soldiers, you are telling me that somewhere in this world the man, or woman, in command of them has blood on their hands; in addition to their sword.

perhaps that mans sword will be destroyed...but the question for the military bashers is...

what will you do to the man/woman that wielded it? some of you are saying he/she shouldn't be punished.

thus, some of you secretly sanction the actions you say you oppose.

how that for hypocrisy?

reply to post by michaelbrux


Great opening to your reply about mutual understanding. Someone who speaks in hyperbole is not likely an intellectual equal and shouldn't be given too much attention.

Having said that, realize that "being a sword" is no excuse. As a human being I cannot accept an excuse fostered by a persons willingness to give up doing that which makes them human: think and empathize. For someone to claim that they are merely an instrument of death, to the point of creating an analog between them and inanimate objects is shocking. It seems to be an admission that free will was handed over in exchange for a clear conscience. Like a brain washing (which is a term used by a few vets that I know describing what boot camp is).

Once again, that excuse did not work for the Nazi's. Why would it be more acceptable today?

Originally posted by michaelbrux
Some of you military bashers need to put your heads on straight.

Fact: Politicians and Lawmakers and by extension the people that elected them are responsible for the wars.

the soldiers that fight in them do what is asked of them and are not capable starting a war;

When the government brings out the fake holograms then you are going to see some real war trauma on then we won’t have a choice but to use our reason to survive. I have not been inside a FEMA place

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


i don't mean to take the position that simply being a tool is a defense.

what I am saying is that not every soldier wearing the American uniform is following their orders.

to destroy the lives of every soldier or the entire military because one soldier or battalion or even one army group implemented an illegal command is a crime also.

people on this site are taking the position that a soldier stationed at an embassy in Polynesia should lose his career or life because a soldier in Afghanistan went on a killing spree one night.

the person or group that gave the command should be destroyed right along with soldier; they should be made to stand in the same line at the gallows.

i'm just happy that my own sword has no blood on it.

and telling a soldier to just follow orders does protect the soldier. that way the one that gave the order can take all the blame. and when you join anything...you do give up some freedom. in every case.

Every country falling into fascism becomes Nationalists. It's OK to be proud of your country -- but people need to recognize ALWAYS that they are in the lucky sperm club. You were just born at a time and place that wasn't under your control. The people in the other country are just people as well. You are not exceptional nor are you God's gift. We can all personally believe we are on a mission and be positive about our skills -- but as soon as people as a group start saying "us and them" -- they are able to be manipulated.

When I look at the 14 signs of Fascism -- especially the attack on Unions, women and a disdain for mercy -- I can't deny that we as a country are on the wrong course.

The Flag is just a stupid flag. Many of our troops are just people who wanted to do a stint and pay for college. Because you march and wear an outfit doesn't mean you automatically did something heroic when you died. There is no point honoring the dead by sacrificing the living - the dead are just dead. Especially when you invade another country -- you cannot BE a victim.

Picking up a gun in a rice patty to fight an enemy who can see in the dark and shoot a missile from two miles away while they pick up your heat signature via a drone is a thousand times more courageous than being the person on the other end of that equation. Regardless of what "ism" or news story that appears on our TV to say what happened was justified -- all wars are people getting killed and eventually a family at dinner getting the door kicked in by the occupier. Most people who die don't even have a clue what is going on, and most people who risk their lives to do the killing are just as ignorant but they've been given a "good enough" story to excuse it or they are abusing drugs.

I don't need to mention any country, belief system, or cause -- because they are all usually spin. Most wars are for power and money -- and the others that aren't, are people trying to get the power back from the people with money. The way of the world is to instigate discontent, sell both sides the weapons, and sit back and sell their resources as they sacrifice their children's future by selling it away one banana tree at a time at fire sale prices.


>> I respect the "Notions" in the heads of a lot of our troops. I'm convinced that 99% of every enlisted man (not necessarily officers), would take a risk for the greater good if the situation presented itself. That situation has not occurred in my life time -- but I have to respect that these people WOULD DO IT IF ASKED.

I'm glad for this topic -- as I think all Americans need to stop this knee-jerk idea of treating everyone in a uniform as an automatic hero. There were "STORIES" of hippies spitting on troops when they returned from Vietnam -- of course, any provocateur could have bought a flower head band as well -- but it doesn't matter. It's the people who sent them to Vietnam and continued to send them well after it was known it was a no win situation who did the true disservice. The people who USE the troops continue to focus on one or two people who get angry and lash out. The flag, the soldier, the missile always stands between the corrupt manipulator and the people they harm. Blowback and terrorism are never a surprise to the war profiteer.

We get angry at what THEY did to our troops or flag or airplane... then we support the manipulators who make the profits stealing their resources and building sweat shops -- rinse and repeat.

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1

I don't worship our troops.

That said, I respect them a hell of a lot more than snot-nosed kids sitting behind computer screens posting updates on Facebook, stuffing their faces with Twinkies, *playing* Medal of Honor, and using their spare time to tell people on internet forums their interpretation of reality.

When the soldiers begin playing robin hood and fighting against the rich to give to the poor then I will worship them, but I spit everytime I see an I support troops bumper sticker, makes me feel like putting that car in front of a train.

Guess the same would aptly be said towards the The Wehrmacht/Illuminati/American and British Military (coracle of policies for taking over and genocide.) You believe what you want, the probing wars in Afghanistan are basically training grounds for the martialling up of americans.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

i don't mean to take the position that simply being a tool is a defense.

what I am saying is that not every soldier wearing the American uniform is following their orders.

to destroy the lives of every soldier or the entire military because one soldier or battalion or even one army group implemented an illegal command is a crime also.

people on this site are taking the position that a soldier stationed at an embassy in Polynesia should lose his career or life because a soldier in Afghanistan went on a killing spree one night.

the person or group that gave the command should be destroyed right along with soldier; they should be made to stand in the same line at the gallows.

i'm just happy that my own sword has no blood on it.

and telling a soldier to just follow orders does protect the soldier. that way the one that gave the order can take all the blame. and when you join anything...you do give up some freedom. in every case.

edit on 25-6-2012 by michaelbrux because: (no reason given)

I can respect what you are saying about not convicting the many for the crimes of the few -- but you seem to gloss over the fact that the ENTIRE WAR was based on lies and had no real justification. Sure, the berserker who kills at random is bad for moral. But anyone who is killing is participating in murder and empire-building.

Following orders protects the unit. But following orders doesn't protect the truth -- and the truth is that in the over 200 operations the US has engaged in in the past 100 years -- they weren't protecting the citizens of the USA. War is a Racket.

Sure we should probably have some military around because there are "bad guys" out there -- our competitors who want to have more power and wealth. A troop in Polynesia might be keeping the peace, rather than being part of the problem in Afghanistan -- but that wasn't anything but the luck of the draw. NOBODY should lose their life -- but they are also a part of a machine that destroys other nations. It's the cost of business. The people who benefit from the "mob enforcer" role the US takes aren't of course, paying that price -- and they never will as long as we keep "defending the troops" and throwing patriotism around.

The soldiers are good people. The code they live by is honorable. Most are just doing a daily routine and not engaged in any combat -- their mere presence a deterrent. We've got all these good people, feelings and pride dripping around it obscures the purpose and goals of the truly malevolent sociopaths who run things.

BP kills a Gulf and then they pay for a bunch of commercials portraying pretty dear walking through beautiful forests. Saddam was ousted because he kicked them and other oil companies out of his country because they were taking all the profits and then he wanted to trade his oil in non-US denominations. If he hadn't done that -- he could have merrily killed all the Kurds he wanted to and gassed his own people with Rumsfeld's munitions.

When it's time for the Oil Companies to get back their fairly stolen oil fields -- the commercials show noble soldiers defending little girls. Not people with green eye shades and Rolex Watches pointing to bar charts of quarterly profits.

The "uprising" to the status quo has not begun in Polynesia -- so it seems like a random act. Nobody will be creating "honorable dead heros" because few think they've got a chance of kicking out US forces -- or Chinese or Russians or whatever "noble warriors" get stationed in a strategic location. The military bases dotted all of the world are not random however.

Originally posted by MarkScheppy

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1

I don't worship our troops.

That said, I respect them a hell of a lot more than snot-nosed kids sitting behind computer screens posting updates on Facebook, stuffing their faces with Twinkies, *playing* Medal of Honor, and using their spare time to tell people on internet forums their interpretation of reality.

When the soldiers begin playing robin hood and fighting against the rich to give to the poor then I will worship them, but I spit everytime I see an I support troops bumper sticker, makes me feel like putting that car in front of a train.

Guess the same would aptly be said towards the The Wehrmacht/Illuminati/American and British Military (coracle of policies for taking over and genocide.) You believe what you want, the probing wars in Afghanistan are basically training grounds for the martialling up of americans.

edit on 25-6-2012 by MarkScheppy because: as

I just have to say that I agree with what you are saying. I'm not however sure WHAT Afghanistan is about -- it could just be giving drug money to the Bush regime or some para-military group. It could be for resources. It could be to break troops and create a supply of dead-eyed mercenaries from what is left of people who aren't zombies after 10 tours of duty. It could be to keep pressure on Pakistan to remain a "loyal ally".

Leaving and sending in aide to build hospitals and schools would "help" the people in Afghanistan more. Talking about their brutality and warlike nature seems to ignore that they've been constantly invaded for hundreds of years -- no peace loving society can grow up out of that.

reply to post by michaelbrux


Must be the difference between public and private ventures. In my line of business, i do not accept a plea of stupidity (which is what "following orders" is in business). If you are on my team, you are expected to think critically as a condition of employment.

reply to post by michaelbrux

my avatar illustrates the proper relationship between the military to a politician. to suggest that the military starts wars is to argue that the man that wields the sword has no responsibility in how the sword he wears is used. this is obviously false. its the man that wields the sword that must bear all responsibility for how the sword is used.

I can see how it makes sense that a professional soldier needs to concentrate on their task -- and nothing else. To be an effective troop is to act without mercy and total dedication. Everyone questioning their orders is going to cause people in the military and possibly the mission to fail.

The only problem is that this kind of thinking has ALWAYS BEEN WRONG and war has always been a racket. If you start questioning things then you are no good to the military -- but then you'd start upholding Democratic principles and the Constitution. You'd ruin the party for the Robber Barons.

Being a "tool for others" of destruction is ultimately -- just being a tool. You could be fighting for Gandhi or Hitler -- just the luck of the draw.

I recognize what I'm saying isn't popular -- and you have lots of people who all agree "this is the way it's done" in the military. Well -- Kings and Emperors have done it this way. Despots and Tyrants as well. The last time the US was engaged in a war for the rights of American citizens we were kicking the British out on wooden ships.

>> You say the "man who starts the war has responsibility" -- George Bush makes about a million per speaking engagement. Whatever responsibility you might say he has -- he's still sleeping with his head on a pillow and I can only imagine that his 401K is even larger than when his grad dad helped move Nazi funds into US banks. So all the people harmed can wag their fingers and all will be right with the world.

Good thing we can blame that guy who wielded the sword -- otherwise, things might have gone terribly wrong.

Originally posted by votan
The USA is an empire. I just wish people would understand that. We do not take military actions to police the world to keep peace.. we are just expanding our influence. It is just the stage our country is in right now. And that is okay. I wish everyone in our country understood that so our government didn't have to lie to us to get us into war over resources.

This has got to be something out of orson wells! Or captain long John Silver. Eat and drink what you like. To speaking english is apparently what kills you (or else you will have a bunch of drones going along with whatever the corporate military says.)

NO NO, we are getting destroyed. There is no empire, and the republic is getting torn apart. Better start to get on your knees to Jesus or Mercury whoever and pray for a miracle. Because we are heading for catastrophic collapse (that is not speculative.) Scares me a little bit and should scare you.

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
Leaving and sending in aide to build hospitals and schools would "help" the people in Afghanistan more. Talking about their brutality and warlike nature seems to ignore that they've been constantly invaded for hundreds of years -- no peace loving society can grow up out of that.

The US has been "helping" them going back decades, building roads, bridges, hospitals etc. Here is Eisenhower on a state visit during the Cold War.. Which lead to a massive highway project and schools and hospital construction program for Afghans...

Source




When the Soviets invaded back in the 80s they made good use of the many highways, roads and bridges the US built back in the 50s and 60s. They also bombed the crap out of the many schools and hospitals the US built as well. The rebuilding of their economy after years of Taliban rule still continues.. I haven't seen anybody mention the reconstruction effort presently taking place.

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US Soldier guarding School reconstruction
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Australian Troops rebuilding bridge
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Kabul 2011
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Kabul Shopping Mall
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We all know how the Taliban loved ancient historical monuments to humanity...
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Now women in Afghanistan can work and get an education again...
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Kabul Broadcasting...
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Hey...
Football is being played at the Football stadium again instead of being used to execute women.
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reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


Yeah...we're walking on two different paths and its impossible for me to respond to your posting.

I don't agree with anything you wrote...not with regards to the war, its participants or observers.

you wrote way too much for me to take it apart...but you can pick a smaller topic to discuss within the framework of the thread and i'll do my best to post a response.

America is a British Colony much like Europe (the E.U.) is as well. So Vietnam veterans take notice and tell me what you are believers in.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

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Kabul Shopping Mall

Gas station satan expresso machines, but at least one thing that our western culture has that we can't screw up are the expresso machines, until inflation makes coffee go up to about five dollars a cup.

Plans are for a new world order government government by price explosions caused by a money obessed culture (whose horns are more disgusting than those.) No spiritual virtues, but thanks for the pictures of progress. Transformers more than meets the eye. I would roll down that junk.