What 'conspiracy' lies behind Eric Holder and 'Fast and Furious'?

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posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 05:41 PM
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Along with conservative commentators like Rush Limbaugh, Issa suggested as late as April that Fast and Furious may have been part of a policy by the White House to flood the Mexican market with guns to foment violence, which would then put political pressure back on the US to curb its wide-open border gun bazaar and weaken Second Amendment rights.


www.csmonitor.com...




“Could it be that what they really were thinking of was in fact to use this walking of guns in order to promote an assault weapons ban?” Rep. Issa said. “Many think so. And [the administration] hasn’t come up with an explanation that would cause any of us not to agree.”

Loosely based on two similar operations that took place during the Bush administration, Fast and Furious began in 2009, shortly after administration officials, including Obama, several times cited in public a contested estimate that 90 percent of guns used in Mexican violence came from the US, a situation they said was wreaking havoc in Mexico and injuring relations between the two continental powers.


Mainstream Conspiracy ftw?

So... as some are suggesting, is it possible that this was done in effort to support a push towards the weakening of the 2nd Amendment!?

We've all seen what kind of back door tactics that have been used through out history to push initiatives threw the door. The intentional arming of Mexican cartels to weaken the 2nd Amendment, war on drugs, and the apparent destruction of the American Constitution... hmmm....




Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.


This is coming so close to Treason! I'd be willing to bet the house on it that the word 'Treason' is brought up in the very near future.

This is the best Rabbit Hole since Watergate! Regardless of the outcome, I hope justice is served and Brian Terry's family gets the answers they deserve!




posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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While many ponder what conspiracy lies behind Eric Holder and "Fast and Furious" ?, even the best talk show hosts are all missing one critical topic that from all appearances no one wants to consider let alone discuss as if it might be a factor in what we are seeing and not seeing in the Holder Obama coverup.

Since I have a thought on the matter, I am going to share what I feel is the missing factor in all the concern over Eric Holder's refusal to turn over files and with Obama declaring executive privilege.

First off, I will admit and will agree with those that think such criminal and covert actions undermined our 2nd Amendment rights and was intended to create UN-needed anti-gun legislation needed to help disarm the public.

I also agree that a criminal coverup is in place, but what no one considers or discusses is that the reason there is a lid on this problem, is because it could show a link and a systemic and long standing control over drug cartels, indicating that the drug cartels answer to those in the CIA and other covert federal agencies that manage the worlds drug industry in secret.

Since the drug cartels do the transporting and distribution of such drugs into America under the protection of those who control them, it stands to reason that if your soldiers who work for you need weapons to do their job, you can bet such weapons would be made available. After all, they do work for the crooks in federal service and in our military.

I feel that the reason recent Eric Holder events have turned out as they have is not only because it possibly incriminates those involved with Holder, but because it also potentially reveals the bigger secret "System of Control" and management of drug cartels and the illegal importation of drugs into the country.

For those that will consider my thought, I just know it will find fertile ground to grow, because after all the discussion from all the media circles and political circles and even alternative media, it is that no one talks about the idea that Eric Holder and Obama could be only the tip of the federal corrupt ice berg and what we are seeing is damage control for reasons that do not fit the typical political motivations.

Since everyone admits to being stumped on this one, it is time to consider something more damaging than a few names and involvement with coverups or lying to authorities. Political motivations aside, this to me implies that they are acting for a larger secret and that secret if confirmed and disclosed would not come at a good time for Obama and or those who control his agenda.

Keeping this secret a secret is important so that business can go on as usual. Business as usual is the main concern in my opinion for the coverup, because if this were to impact the drug profits, I have no doubt there would be heads that roll and the loss of billions of dollars in black budget funding sources would impact many.

Since this cannot be allowed to ever happen, a coverup with executive privilege is being effectively used pending any delays in investigations or court rulings regarding the release of such files and records requested by Congress or the Senate.

Buy time, distract the public, delay and hope that some false flag disastrous event comes along that makes everyone forget about the problems that this issue poses to the ruling criminal elite. Something very much like everyone forgetting about the report on the day before 911 about the missing two trillion dollars in military funding.

Oh well., we will see. At least I hope we do. Anyway, thanks for the thread. I hope I offered some new food for thought about Eric Holder and Obama and the possible why of their official and public actions regarding "Fast and Furious".

Thanks again.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:02 PM
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There is no conspiracy behind this..

Its a dead story..

After all this there is no evidence for a conspiracy..

The bullet that killed the border agent does not even match a gun that was involved in F and F.

If there is a conspiracy it is that ISSA is trying to damage America.

Issa might also be working for the terrorists.

Holder has proven that he was not involved.

And as we know Obama was not either



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by BlueStatePatriot
 


That's funny because www.abovetopsecret.com... . I'm amazed how matter-of-fact you are about this issue. So much so that your obvious and unsophisticated political affinity is on display for all to see.
edit on 23-6-2012 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by BlueStatePatriot
 


Partisan much Mr. Blue State? Credibility is earned not assumed.

Next.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by BlueStatePatriot
There is no conspiracy behind this..

Its a dead story..

After all this there is no evidence for a conspiracy..

The bullet that killed the border agent does not even match a gun that was involved in F and F.

If there is a conspiracy it is that ISSA is trying to damage America.

Issa might also be working for the terrorists.

Holder has proven that he was not involved.

And as we know Obama was not either


Lame lame lame! - if Holder has had to walk back the initial lies he told about not being involved - and as for Obama he has made several statements on record - that he was 'working under the radar' on gun control - and if he was not involved how can Holder then claim 'executive privilige'



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by FractalChaos13242017
 


1) aiding and abetting the murder of a U.S. agent deserves a felony murder investigation, not a cover-up based on "principle."

2) There has been more than one murder. The case of David Hartley is interesting because his wife reported he was murdered by Mexican bandits and almost immediately the MSM began a campaign to discredit her. You can read more about Tiffany and David Hartley here.

3) The killing of Brian Terry happened in Arizona. It will be interesting to see if the Arizona A.G. will investigate U.S. bureaucrats for aiding and abetting the murder, or covering up the investigation.

And yes, by definition, aiding the enemy of the U.S. is treason.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by BlueStatePatriot
There is no conspiracy behind this..


Impossible to logically prove a categorical negative assertion. Yours is right up there with "I can prove that ghosts do not exist."



Its a dead story..


As long as people are interested at ATS, it is not dead.



After all this there is no evidence for a conspiracy..


Neapolitano once said that the president directed them. That, and Holder's claim of executive (presidential) privilege makes any nefarious activity a conspiracy, by definition of the term: people working together toward a common goal, against someone else's or the public's interests



The bullet that killed the border agent does not even match a gun that was involved in F and F.


They have gun imprint data for all of the 2000 or so guns used in F&F???? If so, they should advertize that, since there is no other evidence that Holder and company even had a mechanism for tracing the guns after they disappeared into Mexico.



If there is a conspiracy it is that ISSA is trying to damage America.


One person doesn't make it a conspiracy. Issa's only "damage" is an adverserial attempt to score political points. Also known as "checks and balances." The fact that he is grinding his own axe doesn't preclude him from performing a public service in the bargain.



Issa might also be working for the terrorists.


That's your best shot? Fine, Obama is the psychic slave of Ming the Merciless. Prove me wrong.



Holder has proven that he was not involved.


Not involved in fast and furious? How not involved, he has since said that he was incorrect in saying originally that he was not involved. Either way, he has now perjured himself at least once in regard to fast & furious.



And as we know Obama was not either


Holder SAYS Obama's involved, by claiming that executive privilege is somehow relevant to his perjury defense.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by BlueStatePatriot
 



Originally posted by BlueStatePatriot

The bullet that killed the border agent does not even match a gun that was involved in F and F.






What's troubling is that an AK-47 found at the scene of Terry's death has been traced back to an undercover operation, where federal authorities allowed weapons to pass illegally into Mexico.


www.tucsonnewsnow.com...




An autopsy found a single bullet from an AK-47 assault rifle lodged in Terry's body. It had entered his lower back, severing his spinal cord and the main artery to his heart. Four men, including one injured in the shootout, were arrested in Peck Canyon. A fifth got away. Two rifles traced to Fast and Furious that had been bought for use by the Sinaloa drug cartel were found at the scene.



www.huffingtonpost.com...

Umm These news articles seem to contradict your statement .



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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we all know that america is just racist.

ask any progressive. theyll be glad to tell you all about it and how no stories that portray this worthless excuse of an administration as the worthless excuse of an administration that they are are at all true.

when you have absolutely ZERO good record to campaign on, you throw insults like a child.

and i agree with the theory this is all about gun control. they send em into mexico knowing they will come back, it becomes an international issue somehow. and UN has to step in and push their BS.

the whole CIA controlling the drug trade thing seems perfectly logical too. seems there has always been a lot of talk of this going on, and it really does make sense if you think about it.

the obamabots need to give up on the whole "ignore it and call everyone racist" thing though. people are wising up to that tactic i think. hopefully at least.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 09:27 PM
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If you ask me, I tend to think he is just perpetuating what the US govt has been doing routinely for decades. Running drugs. Payment in Jeeps, Guns, Money, Intelligence, whatever they need at the moment.

It started, at least, with Bush I and continued with Clinton, Barry Seal and Mena AK and continued on to Venice, FL.

www.madcowprod.com...
edit on 6/23/2012 by kosmicjack because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by kosmicjack
If you ask me, I tend to think he is just perpetuating what the US govt has been doing routinely for decades. Running drugs. Payment in Jeeps, Guns, Money, Intelligence, whatever they need at the moment.


So is it a stretch to think that David Hartley was killed by a Mexican drug cartel weapons supplied by the U.S.?

[SNIPPED]

I think this is what Obama and Holder are covering up. Their worst nightmare is having the media even speculate that David Hartley was killed with a Fast and Furious gun. A border guard is one thing. A young U.S. couple jet skiing is another.

Worse, would be if it were discovered that the documents being hidden by Obama contained references to covering up murder of David Hartley.

This is not wild speculation.

It's all factual.

Fact: US is supply weapons to Mexican drug cartel.
Fact: US border guard is killed.
Fact: David Hartley is murdered.
Fact: MSM implies Hartley's wife is involved, not drug cartels.
Fact: Congress investigates.
Fact: Obama and Holder withhold evidence from Congress and do not allow witnesses to testify.
Fact: Obama spokesman says the reason is "principle" of separation of powers.

Not is supplying aid and abetting an enemy of the U.S. an impeachable offense, it's treason, and criminal. Aiding and abetting the murder of U.S. citizens is first degree murder.

So yes, I think this is what they are covering up.
edit on Sun Jun 24 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: off topic material removed



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by MaxBlack
While many ponder what conspiracy lies behind Eric Holder and "Fast and Furious" ?, even the best talk show hosts are all missing one critical topic that from all appearances no one wants to consider let alone discuss...

...what no one considers or discusses is that the reason there is a lid on this problem, is because it could show a link and a systemic and long standing control over drug cartels, indicating that the drug cartels answer to those in the CIA and other covert federal agencies that manage the worlds drug industry in secret.

... because it also potentially reveals the bigger secret "System of Control" and management of drug cartels and the illegal importation of drugs into the country.

...could be only the tip of the federal corrupt ice berg and what we are seeing is damage control for reasons that do not fit the typical political motivations.

Keeping this secret a secret is important so that business can go on as usual.



Originally posted by kosmicjack
I tend to think he is just perpetuating what the US govt has been doing routinely for decades. Running drugs. Payment in Jeeps, Guns, Money, Intelligence, whatever they need at the moment.

It started, at least, with Bush I and continued with Clinton, Barry Seal and Mena AK and continued on to Venice, FL. www.madcowprod.com...


I'm glad to see some of us are on the same page here. The global illicit drug trade is probably the biggest conspiracy operating in the world. The money changing hands through this enterprise is beyond enormous, and it is all OFF THE BOOKS!

The drug trade is not just about El Chapo and a few bandidtos, it is WORLDWIDE and our governments are fully involved and controlling it with America's military might to back it up. This is why we had to go into Afghanistan to kick out the Taliban - those religious kooks stopped growing our poppies! This global drug trade is what keeps our economies afloat. The whole scam is bigger than big and it didn't just start with "Poppy" Bush but goes back to the East India Trading Company or beyond. It's nothing new under the sun, just new and improved militarily and the whole trade is secret to the public who still largely believes we are fighting this drug war for their own personal protection.

en.wikipedia.org...

In the 18th century, Britain had a huge trade deficit with Qing Dynasty China and so in 1773, the Company created a British monopoly on opium buying in Bengal.

In 1838, with the amount of smuggled opium entering China approaching 1,400 tons a year, the Chinese imposed a death penalty for opium smuggling and sent a Special Imperial Commissioner, Lin Zexu, to curb smuggling. This resulted in the First Opium War (1839–1842). After the war Hong Kong island was ceded to Britain under the Treaty of Nanking and the Chinese market opened to the opium traders of Britain and other nations. A Second Opium War fought by Britain and France against China lasted from 1856 until 1860 and led to the Treaty of Tientsin.


It is a secret trade that must remain secret to be effective. The prohibition must be globally enforced or the house of cards comes tumbling down. In reality those drugs would have little commercial value in an open market, and if even one little country normalized their policies on any of these substances, including canabis, the facade would be broken throughout the world and TRILLIONS of dollars would be lost to our elite players.

Another little drawback if the illicit drug trade tumbled-down, there would be little cause for government to intrude on our privacies any longer. No longer would an addicted junkie have to steal from his grandmother, rob 7-11 markets, or go to prison as he would merely have his little poppy garden in his backyard virtually free of cost. Without the stigma of criminality that junkie's behavior is no worse, and actually less troublesome, than the stinking drunks we already tolerate. Do not ever believe that alcohol is a safe recreational drug merely because it is legal - it is one of the worst!

So, yes, this gun-running scam with the drug cartels has a lot of secrets to hide. Some people very high up in the government game will probably make sure the executive retains his privilege to keep a lid on it all. It's a game that is busting apart at the seams and will probably be that economic SHTF scenario that will effect all of us if the lid blows off this pressure pot. Imagine the impact on the global economy and the attitudes of the people when they realize what a crooked game of law and order we have been playing, the needless tragedies we endure so the rich can scam us.

edit on 24-6-2012 by Erongaricuaro because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 11:48 AM
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I most definitely think F&F has everything to do with weakening our Second Amendment. Remember, Obama said a while back that he was working behind the scenes to do this. Behind the scenes??? What does THAT mean?

When a populace has the right to KEEP and BEAR arms, Liberty reigns. If only the government has this right, The People are slaves with no real freedom and they lose the fundamental ability to secure their unalienable rights at the core principle. It is healthy to maintain a wary eye of some mistrust for government leaders.

If we could wave a magic wand and make the whole world peaceful, righteous, moral and trustworthy, weapons could be eliminated. But, that is a science-fiction novel set in a utopian world of imagination. Get real, people.

As far as the drug connection, I have always believed there is a secret agenda or a shadowy underground government involved. You cannot tell me that if the war on drugs was a serious war to wipe out illicit drugs, we would not have done so by now. There is too much $$$$ to be made underground and I assume some very high-up influential people control it all.



posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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What's the difference between Operation Wide Receiver (2006) and Operation Fast & Furious (2011)? Both are under Project Gunrunner, which began in 2005. BOTH lost guns into Mexico that were allowed to "walk" across the border.

Posted in another thread on F&F:
Operation Wide Receiver lost about 450 guns (AR-15's, AK's etc.) once they "walked" into Mexico. The ATF knowingly allowed these guns to move over the border, and lost track of them from there. Issa and the rest of the GOP have shown no interest in reviewing that precedent (since it occurred under Bush).

It was exactly the same scenario as Operation Fast & Furious, and was the precedent in losing track of the guns once in Mexico. F&F was just a continuation of the same police sting operation. Both of these operation (WR and F&F) are under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner.

The big difference between Wide Receiver and Fast & Furious is no one in congress back in 2006-7 tried to politicize the event or play the blame game, the way Issa and the Republicans are now. Why don't they bring back Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales or Mukasey and grill him the way they have Holder? Hell, Project Gunrunner was Gonzales' brain child (he of the Patriot Act fame).


There are two documents that Congress, and news reporters covering Project Gunrunner, choose to ignore. The first is the US Attorney General's report stating that Project Gunrunner began in Laredo, Texas, in 2005. The document was published in Wikipedia.
The second is the ATF Southwest Border Strategy, Project Gunrunner Weapons of Choice. The brochure, dated Feb. 2008, shows photos of the assault weapons that the ATF allowed to flow to drug cartels in Mexico. It was published online by the hacktivists Lulzsec when they hacked the Arizona police files.

Prior to the ATF Project Gunrunner's Fast and Furious, the ATF allowed assault weapons to flow to Mexico's drug cartels beginning in 2006 in Operation Wide Receiver in Tucson.

Congress showed no interest in Project Gunrunner until Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was murdered with those weapons near Nogales, Ariz, in Dec. 2010. Another agent, ICE agent Jaime Zapata, was also murdered with the weapons in northern Mexico. An unknown number of citizens of Mexico and the US have been murdered with those weapons.

The complete report from the US Attorney General is at:
msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/OIG_report.pdf

The ATF Southwest Border Strategy, Weapons of Choice is at:
publicintelligence.inf o/ufouoles-lulzsec-release-atf-project-gunrunner-southwest-border-strategy-weapons-of-choice/ (Source: Project Gunrunner began in 2005 in Texas


Project Gunrunner was initiated by Albert Gonzales and until he is brought back in to testify, then this is nothing more than a dog-and-pony show put on by the GOP to keep Holder off-balance (and from investigating voter suppression until it's too late).



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 09:54 AM
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After reading The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal, I came away with the realization that the Isaa show is a convenient distraction to draw attention away from the legal Arizona drug-gun running.


Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.


The "someone buying three guns" could then legally turn around and sell these guns as a private person, and then buy three more to do the same over and over, until the guns end up in Mexico, killing American border patrol agents.

Isaa's sham show is on par with the sham show of gun sales in Phoenix. The Arizona gun sellers might as well open up shop on the Mexican border, with their doors facing Mexico, rather than having Mexicans travel further inland. Hell, dump trucksful of guns over the borderline after receiving payments via money orders or cash thrown northward over the borderline. Oh, but that would mean the strawbuyer American citizens would be out of their cut.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


There is no difference. The whole project has been and will always be a conspiracy to weaken the 2nd Amendment. Instead of blaming the government for playing with peoples lives, the blame is placed on American gun shops and the American gun owner.
edit on 6-7-2012 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)





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