Sincere help for 9/11 debunkers

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posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by BBobb
 


well that is not quite true..now is it....have you yourself gone to any seminars....I went to one by Gordon Ross which was very informative...and i also attended a A&E seminar....which again was full of good info...Now before you jump down my throat....I know it is biased...just as info from the OS is biased....but to be able to draw conclusions for one's self ALL information is valid and needs to be digested and correlated so it can be properly analyzed.

9/11 truth lectures just google it and you will be surprised how many lectures are going on out there in public forums...and universities through out the world....so Samkent and to yourself...Maybe you might be spending to much time online yourselves to get out there and ask questions in person of those presenting the lectures....I mean why not argue your points face to face in real...Because i am a lazy truther who does that.

Gordon Ross is a very pleasant person to talk to....and he does not eat people from the OS side.
edit on 103030p://f17Saturday by plube because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by soulwaxer
For people with eyes that see, it is obvious that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 was controlled demolition. And it is therefore quite amazing that 9/11 debunkers are seemingly unable to see this.

Here is my theory on that: You debunkers have the same eyes as the rest of us, and therefore can also see the obvious.


Its not obvious at all. You have absolutely no clue what an event like this should look like. Nobody in the world could have predicted it with any certainty. The idea that you somehow know stuff like this is some sort of psychological condition. Mostly harmless though.


The difference is in how your mind processes this information.


This is true. Looking at Youtube videos and making some uneducated guesses isn't the way I process data. I base my opinion on studies of experts instead. Simply because I fully acknowledge that I do not posses the required education, training and expertise to form a relevant opinion about the subject. For some reason many people in the truth movement are under the impression their opinion does matter. There is only one way to make your opinion matter, which is scientific publication. Something that the truth movement is completely lacking.

As for the idea that I reject this controlled demolition idea because of a trauma, I think it is extremely far fetched. I don't care that much about the whole 9/11 event or its victims. Sure its not nice for those people who suffered, but # happens all the time. I feel more sorry for all the people who are still suffering from wars every day. When you put the whole event in perspective, its not really that devastating, except for a dent in the ego of the USA or the west in general.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by soulwaxer


No, that is an uninformed question. I have seen both David Ray Griffin and Richard Gage (Do you know who they are?) speak to an audience of a few hundred here in Brussels several years ago. Many people attending resolved their conflict right there.

No need to answer dumb questions is there?


David Ray Griffin: Claimed the calls from the planes were fake using voice morphing technology

Richard Gage: Used cardboard boxes during a debate in attempt to compare the collapsing towers.

I have met Gage and had a lengthy discussion with him. He went back on his word on two things we discussed, and was unable to answer some pretty tough questions from me. His response: "That's why we need a new investigation."

Your thread serves no purpose and adds nothing to 9/11 conspiracies.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by anoncoholic
reply to post by Alfie1
 


How come you refuse to believe when the facts had been presented over and over?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

... maybe because you are too caught up in yourself to discern truth from excuses?


Please give me a verifiable hard fact tending to prove that WTC 1,2 & 7 were controlled demolitions as the OP alleges.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by -PLB-
 


Hello PLB did you look at the youtube vid by Jonathan Cole and your experts....Why not, rather than listen to experts and just believe...this is a option...why not do your very own work...and believe in yourself....I know it might be a novel idea...but i think it is a good one.....What do you think?



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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9/11 MADNESS
post removed because of personal attacks

Click here to learn more about this warning.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:22 AM
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9/11 MADNESS
post removed because of personal attacks

Click here to learn more about this warning.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by -PLB-

Originally posted by soulwaxer
For people with eyes that see, it is obvious that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 was controlled demolition. And it is therefore quite amazing that 9/11 debunkers are seemingly unable to see this.

Here is my theory on that: You debunkers have the same eyes as the rest of us, and therefore can also see the obvious.


Its not obvious at all. You have absolutely no clue what an event like this should look like. Nobody in the world could have predicted it with any certainty. The idea that you somehow know stuff like this is some sort of psychological condition. Mostly harmless though.


The difference is in how your mind processes this information.


This is true. Looking at Youtube videos and making some uneducated guesses isn't the way I process data. I base my opinion on studies of experts instead. Simply because I fully acknowledge that I do not posses the required education, training and expertise to form a relevant opinion about the subject. For some reason many people in the truth movement are under the impression their opinion does matter. There is only one way to make your opinion matter, which is scientific publication. Something that the truth movement is completely lacking.

As for the idea that I reject this controlled demolition idea because of a trauma, I think it is extremely far fetched. I don't care that much about the whole 9/11 event or its victims. Sure its not nice for those people who suffered, but # happens all the time. I feel more sorry for all the people who are still suffering from wars every day. When you put the whole event in perspective, its not really that devastating, except for a dent in the ego of the USA or the west in general.


I work in a very scientific environment with front runners in their field. I can assure you that they are not as reliable as you believe. On the contrary. Science is the new religion. I have much more confidence in my instincts.

But thank you for your post, especially the rest of it.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by plube
reply to post by BBobb
 


well that is not quite true..now is it....have you yourself gone to any seminars....I went to one by Gordon Ross which was very informative...and i also attended a A&E seminar....which again was full of good info...Now before you jump down my throat....I know it is biased...just as info from the OS is biased....but to be able to draw conclusions for one's self ALL information is valid and needs to be digested and correlated so it can be properly analyzed.



Gordon Ross is a very pleasant person to talk to....and he does not eat people from the OS side.


Gordon Ross, I believe designs HVAC systems ( he does have a BSC in mechanical Engineering). He is not a structural engineer. His paper was thoroughly refuted by a REAL structural engineer.

newtonsbit.blogspot.com...



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by soulwaxer
I work in a very scientific environment with front runners in their field. I can assure you that they are not as reliable as you believe. On the contrary. Science is the new religion. I have much more confidence in my instincts.

But thank you for your post, especially the rest of it.


So, you are saying that your instincts are more reliable than the scientific model?

And you think the debunkers need help??


edit on 23-6-2012 by Six Sigma because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:50 AM
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**ENOUGH**

You will discuss the topic, not each other. Insults and off topic remarks end here in now.

Further violations and you will be post banned for 72hrs while the staff reviews your account.

This will not be tolerated in the 9/11 forums of ATS.

This issue is emotional and hard enough to discuss without poo flinging.

Carry on, discussing the topic.

~Tenth
ATS Mod
edit on 6/23/2012 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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This is an excellent thread and does get to the point on a serious and complex issue. The trauma that is involved with facing the facts is huge in itself. I watched the whole event live go down and did not move off the couch for three days, it did change my life and the direction I took. A few years ago I had some time on my hands and just surfing around the internet and came across the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I did not want to believe such stuff, but I could remember a few moments in the live broadcast that made you go hmm. Anyway I had a bit of a look into the situation just to review what actually happened and was not liking what I saw.

When I came across the video of the collapse of WTC7 my whole world fell down with it. I was faced with either believing in the laws of physics or the laws of man. I know people can lie, I know buildings cannot. But what does this mean? Our government, our media, our military, our banks, our corporations, our society - it is all a lie... WTF

For three days I was in a total daze as all of my trust in society was ripped out of me in an instant. My brain basically had a melt down as I had to reassess everything, am I a lie? The issue of trust has taken a long time to rebuild and even still I have a lot of doubts and caution when it comes to the government and corporate world. I can understand people are hesitant in accepting the facts as they do not want to shatter their trust. What I have come to learn is that trust is about understanding, you can trust a snake to bite you.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:01 AM
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Let me rephrase! IMHO, there is insurmountable evidence that 9/11 was an inside job. I disagree with the OP in that if there are people out there who are truly that emotionally and mentally weak, I fear more than ever for us all! It is my considered opinion that anyone who props the "official" story is complicit in the crime!



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by Six Sigma
 



Gordon Ross, I believe designs HVAC systems ( he does have a BSC in mechanical Engineering). He is not a structural engineer. His paper was thoroughly refuted by a REAL structural engineer.


Did i say what he was...Is he a human being...yes....Does he have Intelligence...yes....So please tell the room what your skills are before you go debasing others...I know what mine are....And i am pretty good at what i do....So I do have the intelligence to listen....then i have the intelligence to figure out what might be pertinent...just as i am listening to you now...without trying the debase your character...We as human learn things over and over from animals....yet we deem a lot of them as unintelligent...yet we still learn from them.
but by taking the approach that because he deals with HVAC systems means he does not have the intellect of intelligent thinking is an absolute cop out on your part...because we have in this situation EXPERTS from all camp seeming to not be able to agree on one thing....so i will not join in your game of character assassination as i would have to go down the road of showing your statements yet again for what they are...half truths...to try to make yourself seem more clever than you might be.....but that does not mean what you have to say is invalid...because your statement about the power plant was very valid as it showed a baseline of your true intentions....even though it was an extremely lame statement....It showed very interesting facts on your way of thinking....would you agree?



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:25 AM
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well for those who question things...this is a very good lecture...but it is a university lecture....So rather boring but is an interesting take.


Google Video Link



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by soulwaxer
For people with eyes that see, it is obvious that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 was controlled demolition. And it is therefore quite amazing that 9/11 debunkers are seemingly unable to see this.

Here is my theory on that: You debunkers have the same eyes as the rest of us, and therefore can also see the obvious. The difference is in how your mind processes this information. For most of you, this has nothing to do with intelligence. It has everything to do with emotional trauma.

Second to the fantasies of stringing up and torturing debunkers (reported post) this is the most offensive thing I have read yet. Of course it's just made entirely of fantasy. I'm not remotely 'emotionally traumatised'. I'm not even American. I live and work in a city that has faced countless terrorist attacks and was destroyed in 1996 as a result.


So most of you actually do see the obvious, but are unable to face this emotionally which causes your mind to store that information in the subconscious. Your mind has this natural defense mechanism that keeps you from losing it. But the information is still there along with the emotions related to it, and that causes a strong conflict in the mind between the conscious and the subconscious. In order to restore a sense of peace, you will put a lot of effort into trying to solve the conflict. That, dear debunkers, is why you spend so much time trying to debunk an idea you think is ridiculous.

The amount of rationalisation needed here is amazing. You can't accept that debunkers are both intelligent and disagree with you, so you have to invent this idea that they're emotionally broken and so it makes sense that they're both intelligent but wrong.

On the other hand, the reality of the situation is that you have almost no clue what you are talking about regarding 911, you regurgitate stories you've heard on other sites but without bothering to do trivial fact checking. This is why on a single fairly low traffic forum we have every possible variation of truther theories, from micro-nukes to space-beams to vic-sims to no-planes and beyond.


Why else would you do that? Surely not because you enjoy it or don't have anything better to do. No, it is more likely that you have a huge internal conflict that desperately needs solving.

Ah yes of course, the rare inverted occam's razor, where the most complicated answer is what you accept. Nope I'm sorry, but it is much more likely that I enjoy debating and don't have anything better to do. I can tell you this because I have a lot of free time and am pretty sure I know my emotional makeup better than you do.


So there you have it. 9/11 was, above all, a psychological attack. And you, dear debunkers, are the victims. But there is hope. At least something deep inside you is actively trying to deal with your conflict and not completely ignoring it by turning it's focus to meaningless subjects like Lady Gaga or whatever. And if you have made it this far in my post, then I truly believe you can make it all the way.

I did, some time ago. Once I researched both sides and discovered the nuttier fringes of the truth movement, I realised that any suspicions I had were just that, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt spread by those with an agenda to push their ideas (and shockingly, their merchandise) onto anyone who would listen.

It's a form of 'secret knowledge' that elevates your ego. You believe that you have access to information others don't and so this gives you greater power. As a result, anyone attempting to shake the foundations of this power must be psychologically damaged, or working for some evil organisation etc. This is a much more parsimonious theory as it doesn't rely on the dichotomy of people having some secret emotional corruption but also posting facts that you can't deal with.


To any debunker thinking of replying, please seriously think about why you spend your time doing so, and consider stating the reason in your reply. Just as I have stated my own reasons for spending my time on spreading my own views.

You actually didn't, but nevermind. I spend time on here because I enjoy debate, and because I hate seeing people posting complete falsehoods and arrogantly claiming they have the one true understanding of events. I find it funny people use an example of an atheist spending time on a christian forum as something that wouldn't happen.

This is exactly what I used to do. I've debated creationists for the last decade or so, and if we are to apply the same logic as you used above, this means i'm a closet Christian, Christianity is true, and the flood created emotional trauma that is crippling you from accepting it!

It's ridiculous when you apply the same logic to a situation you don't agree with, so maybe this should give you pause before applying it to 'debunkers'.

Just a thought.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by plube


Did i say what he was...Is he a human being...yes....Does he have Intelligence...yes....So please tell the room what your skills are before you go debasing others...I know what mine are....And i am pretty good at what i do....So I do have the intelligence to listen....then i have the intelligence to figure out what might be pertinent...just as i am listening to you now...without trying the debase your character..


I never stated that Mr. Ross was not intelligent. I clearly stated that his area of expertice was in HVAC design. That in itself is quite impressive. He created a "paper" attempting to prove that explosives would have been necessary for the twin towers to collapse. His paper was refuted by structural engineer. Mr. Ross did have a rebuttal to the refutation, but the one mathematical error he found did not effect the conclusion of the refuting paper.

It is not relevant to the discussion, but my expertise is building management. I have held many titles in many different buildings. Most buildings I operate are around 1million sq. ft. One of my more recent jobs was overseeing the completion of a building adjacent to Ground Zero in NYC. I will be more than happy to share with you the location via U2U. My knowledge of buildings, codes, unions, security, etc have aided me in knowing the improbability of a team of black op CD experts; carrying out a mission where they wire and detonate 3 very large skyscrapers. (I use the term improbable because let's face it, an Alien could have done it!)




We as human learn things over and over from animals....yet we deem a lot of them as unintelligent...yet we still learn from them.
but by taking the approach that because he deals with HVAC systems means he does not have the intellect of intelligent thinking is an absolute cop out on your part...because we have in this situation EXPERTS from all camp seeming to not be able to agree on one thing....so i will not join in your game of character assassination as i would have to go down the road of showing your statements yet again for what they are...half truths...to try to make yourself seem more clever than you might be


I was not assassinating anyone's character. His paper was refuted. His mistakes were shown. He failed to respond to open letter that he received showing the mistakes he made. Show me the "half truths", please. I don't have to make myself look clever... I am.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by soulwaxer
 



If there is some obvious universal truth about 9/11 being an "inside job" how come truthers have come up with 1001 different scenarios but no hard facts ?


come up with hard facts??...how about an independent investigation where the idea of explosives being used is even considered...you know...like the first WTC bombing in 1993. wouldn't you say it's odd that it wasn't even taken into account?...not even if planted bombs were USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH the plane strikes?
even the sherriff of mayberry (andy griffin) would have sent barney out to check if there was a connection.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by plube
reply to post by -PLB-
 


Hello PLB did you look at the youtube vid by Jonathan Cole and your experts....Why not, rather than listen to experts and just believe...this is a option...why not do your very own work...and believe in yourself....I know it might be a novel idea...but i think it is a good one.....What do you think?


Of course I have seen the video. I don't really see its relevance. You can also make a video that shows how you can cut steel columns with angle grinders. It proves exactly nothing.

I have looked at 911 from about every angle imaginable. Like I said, I am not under the impression that I posses some special skill or special knowledge. Many people who call themselves truther think they do. Somehow they think they know better than all those people at universities, engineers and scientists. Either they think they know better, or they think those engineers and scientists are either afraid or part of the shadow government. In all cases, its a bizzare position to have. To me it looks like some sort of physiological condition, but ask an expert to be sure
.





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