Sincere help for 9/11 debunkers

Originally posted by Ivar_Karlsen

Here's an idea for you, walk into the FDNY station right next to the 9/11 site and tell those guys your theory. Have an ambulance already coming because my guess is you are going to get the beating of your life. Until one of your cowardly bastards will walk out from behind your computer screen and into an FDNY firehouse and talk to guys that were there you are nothing more than pathetic pot stirring bitches seeking 15 minutes of internet fame.

www.firehouse.com...

If I were to do that, and what you are suggesting actually happened, then that would be a perfect example of how deeply rooted their fear is. It's either that, or they're just thugs.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by lunarasparagus

 

reply to post by waypastvne

 

reply to post by Ivar_Karlsen

 

reply to post by soulwaxer

 

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

I would go all into it but that would be redundant. ATS: The best subject matter experts on the Internet.

Thanks guys...

Way to go team!

reply to post by soulwaxer

If I were to do that, and what you are suggesting actually happened, then that would be a perfect example of how deeply rooted their fear is. It's either that, or they're just thugs.

Fireman afraid? These same men who walk into fire to save your arse? Liars and Thugs? Yah, call them names next time they rescue your loved ones from a burning building.

You'd call them angels then. Bite your tongue.

reply to post by soulwaxer

I don't see how a fireman's opinion changes anything about what happened. I rely on what I see and am able accept it.

Well, apparently not. What you see is a world filled with your own interpretations "that you blindly accept". Still waiting for all those pictures and eyewitness testimony about blasting components found in the wreckage. And don't feed me another lame website that some guy made up to get attention. That last one didn't have any pictures of that stuff either.

Show_ me_one_lousy_picture_ of evidence you say is "hidden". You must have a bunch to support your claims. They are your claims right?

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
I always find the notion that debunkers are somehow trying to maintain a more palatable, cosier worldview rather suspect. After all what is more frightening?

- a world where the most advanced superpower can be caught unawares by a few fanatics, who kill thousands quite easily, thereby plunging the country into an ill-advised bellicosity that kills hundreds of thousands more and probably ends its moral authority forever. The country is exposed as panicky, ill-prepared, prejudiced and at times bloodthirsty. Its enemies are many and silent, and they may strike at any time, with methods that are unflinchingly cruel. The world is growing more uncertain and dangerous.

- a world where everything bad is the fault of some rich white guys in a secret room. If they went away it would all be fine.

I know which I find more unsettling.

How about a world where the lone Superpower had a President who presided over his false flag who was never elected by the American people. Both of his elections were rigged, and of course, they guy who rigged them was killed in a plane crash.

How does this fit with your cozy world view?

BUSH ‘VOTE RIGGER’ DIES IN CRASH

Connell was prepared to spill beans about 2004 Ohio election rigging, firings of nine U.S. attorneys

By Pat Shannan

Michael Connell, 45, the Bush black box expert who was directly implicated in the rigging of George Bush’s 2000 and 2004 presidential elections, was killed when his single-engine plane crashed outside of the Akron,

Ohio airport on December 19. Velvet Revolution (VR), a non-profit publication that has been investigating Connell’s activities for the past two years, revealed that a person close to Connell told an investigative reporter that he was afraid that George Bush and Dick Cheney would “throw him under the bus.”

A tipster close to theMcCain campaign disclosed in July that Connell’s life was in jeopardy and that Karl Rove had threatened him and his wife, Heather. Attorney Cliff Arnebeck notified the U.S. attorney general, Ohio law enforcement and the federal court about those threats at the time and insisted that Connell be placed in protective custody. The request went unheeded.

An associate of Connell’s had been warned by VR that they had received a tip that the plane had been sabotaged and that Connell should not fly it. VR reported that Connell was a very experienced pilot who had to abandon at least two flights in the past two months because of suspicious problems with his plane. He had flown to Washington, D.C. on Dec. 18, 2008 to meet with some people. It was at the end of his return flight home the next day that he crashed.

Connell appeared before Federal Judge Simon Oliver, a Democrat and Clinton appointee, on October 31, after being subpoenaed in a federal lawsuit investigating Karl Rove and the rigging of the 2004 election.

AFP readers will remember that a 2005 investigation showed that computer vote-rigging had resulted in the Ohio vote being stolen from John Kerry, a state that would have swung the election away from George
Bush.

Judge Oliver had ordered Connell to appear for a deposition on November 3 of this year, only 36 hours before the polls opened, and the White House was worried enough about what Connell might say under oath about his illegal activities that two administration attorneys were dispatched to represent him and help curtail his excess testimony. This happened after the White House was unsuccessful at stopping his appearance altogether.

An associate of Connell’s had said that Connell was also involved in the destruction of the celebrated White House emails and the establishment of the then-secret, off-grid White House email system, and that Connell’s testimony under oath concerning this also had to be of great concern to the administration’s lawyers.

Earlier this year, VR fingered Michael Connell as the key Republican expert that created the nefarious computer attacks allowing off-site servers to tally state vote counts in secret and now reports that Karl Rove reacted by threatening Connell to “either take the fall or keep his mouth shut.”

Two weeks before the November election, Rove was confidently saying that John McCain could “win ten battleground states” to become president. McCain was confidently telling everyone that he would win with a surge in the wee hours of election night. Another rigging appeared to be in the wind.

At Connell’s Cleveland court appearance he was grilled about the election fraud, Trojan horse manipulations and the reported threats from Rove. But Connell couldn’t remember anything, claiming he had no knowledge of any secret steps to change and conceal the vote counts. “He stonewalled like a champion, denying everything,” said VR.

Only hours later and still the night before the election, Rove changed his tune and wrote on an Internet blog that “Obama would win by a landslide”—even in those states he had previously predicted McCain would win.

The election-fraud watchers claimed immediately that Rove “pulled the plug because he felt the heat” and knew it was too risky to carry forth the fraud any further at that point. Plaintiffs’ lawyers needed Connell’s testimony at the upcoming trial in order to implicate Karl Rove. They now fear they will never be able to do so.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I don't feel bad and all depressed and 'stuff'. I'm actually feeling quite peaceful.

I would imagine that's because your views allow you to think of the world's problems as easily soluble.

Trust me, they're not.

Thanks for your thoughts. If you really are interested in my views, then read on.

No, I feel peaceful because I don't really see worldly problems in a conventional way. I see them as learning opportunities for the higher consciousness in all of us (the one that binds us all and is endless). I don't think this worldly experience, which is bound to space and time, and is temporary, is all there is to it. And I think that whatever happens happens. It is what it is. I have peace with that. I do not live in fear of the future. In fact, I believe that fear is the root cause of all worldly suffering.

I have been very close to death several times. One of those experiences involved a car accident where I was conscious for about 2 minutes while they were cutting the roof off of my car so they could get me out. Then I basically died and had to be reanimated. I wasn't conscious again until 3 days later. But I can tell you that those 2 minutes, where I was aware that I was in a terrible mess (my back was broken), were absolutely without worry. Another experience involved my stomach being punctured. I remained conscious while I was being rushed to the hospital for an emergency operation. I instinctively knew that I was physically dying. But the fear almost immediately gave way to the same peaceful feeling I had after the car accident.

This is the experience of the weight of 'worldly' life being lifted from your consciousness. It is a well known phenomenon and is explained thoroughly by the following scientific study published in The Lancet:
www.pimvanlommel.nl...

That pretty much explains why I feel peaceful. And when you feel peaceful, you have the added benefit that everything in life seems to have a way of working out. I'm sure many can attest to that fact.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by soulwaxer

 

If I were to do that, and what you are suggesting actually happened, then that would be a perfect example of how deeply rooted their fear is. It's either that, or they're just thugs.

Fireman afraid? These same men who walk into fire to save your arse? Liars and Thugs? Yah, call them names next time they rescue your loved ones from a burning building.

You'd call them angels then. Bite your tongue.

It's clear that you are only looking on the surface.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by soulwaxer

 

I don't see how a fireman's opinion changes anything about what happened. I rely on what I see and am able accept it.

Well, apparently not. What you see is a world filled with your own interpretations "that you blindly accept". Still waiting for all those pictures and eyewitness testimony about blasting components found in the wreckage. And don't feed me another lame website that some guy made up to get attention. That last one didn't have any pictures of that stuff either.

Show_ me_one_lousy_picture_ of evidence you say is "hidden". You must have a bunch to support your claims. They are your claims right?

Nope. I never claimed that there was eyewitness testimony of 'blasting components' in the wreckage (which doesn't mean that there weren' any blasting components in the wreckage). I made the point that the low res pictures of the fire fighters looking through the wreckage didn't have the potential to show their nonexistence, as I thought was supposed to be the point. I couldn't imagine that the point was to prove that real life fire fighters looked through the wreckage... I thought that was pretty evident.

But anyways... as far as fire fighters being trained in recognizing the components of the ultra-latest explosives technology in a never seen before destruction scene... I'm having my doubts.

reply to post by SimontheMagus


Did you read what I wrote? My worldview is not cosy. Yours is, with its insistence on a tiny - and strangely undetectable - cabal of evildoers.

Look back to the thread about banking that you strangely disappeared from a while back, unable to explain why your "shadow overlords" wanted a systemic banking collapse. In my world the people in charge are ignorant and afraid, and get it wrong all the time. In yours everything could be made okay - and indeed as you constantly insist, will be - by a sort of awakening that will result in the end of the cabal. That sounds cosy to me. The false cosiness of faith and millenarianism.

Incidentally, I don't doubt that the US election was rigged. But not by a group of people who can be stopped. Rather it was ultimately fixed by systemic failure and capitalist indifference.

Originally posted by soulwaxer

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I don't feel bad and all depressed and 'stuff'. I'm actually feeling quite peaceful.

I would imagine that's because your views allow you to think of the world's problems as easily soluble.

Trust me, they're not.

Thanks for your thoughts. If you really are interested in my views, then read on.

No, I feel peaceful because I don't really see worldly problems in a conventional way. I see them as learning opportunities for the higher consciousness in all of us (the one that binds us all and is endless). I don't think this worldly experience, which is bound to space and time, and is temporary, is all there is to it. And I think that whatever happens happens. It is what it is. I have peace with that. I do not live in fear of the future. In fact, I believe that fear is the root cause of all worldly suffering.

I have been very close to death several times. One of those experiences involved a car accident where I was conscious for about 2 minutes while they were cutting the roof off of my car so they could get me out. Then I basically died and had to be reanimated. I wasn't conscious again until 3 days later. But I can tell you that those 2 minutes, where I was aware that I was in a terrible mess (my back was broken), were absolutely without worry. Another experience involved my stomach being punctured. I remained conscious while I was being rushed to the hospital for an emergency operation. I instinctively knew that I was physically dying. But the fear almost immediately gave way to the same peaceful feeling I had after the car accident.

This is the experience of the weight of 'worldly' life being lifted from your consciousness. It is a well known phenomenon and is explained thoroughly by the following scientific study published in The Lancet:
www.pimvanlommel.nl...

That pretty much explains why I feel peaceful. And when you feel peaceful, you have the added benefit that everything in life seems to have a way of working out. I'm sure many can attest to that fact.

Thanks, I found that genuinely interesting. But I have to take issue with it - it seems to me that your world view is exactly the one you're criticising: the idea that everything will be alright. You castigate debunkers for thinking this way, for avoiding suggestions that it won't, and then say that this is in fact exactly how you feel.

Personally I think it highly likely that everything won't work out. And I don't think that the world's problems will be solved when a tiny group of powerful men are brought to heel. I fail to see how that's unrealistically optimistic or a form of denial.

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I don't see how a fireman's opinion changes anything about what happened. I rely on what I see and am able accept it.

Your logic seems to be a little off, are you feeling OK?

It was you that googled this for the asparagus. Remember ? Are you having short term memory loss ?

Originally posted by soulwaxer

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

Think hard. You wanted us to look at your fireman. We showed you our firemen. Do you see the logic now ?

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I'm not on any kind of a hunt. I'm all for rehabilitation, as I made clear earlier in this thread. Why do you feel like you're being hunted?

Wow you just moonwalked yourself all the way around the subject. The subject is: Can you give us an "Official Truther Story" that makes logical sense ?

Maybe you could turn it into a song and sing it wile you dance for us.

Everyone Knows This Is What Really Happened, So Spread The Word!

One bright day, in the middle of the night,
Trustworthy traitors with explosive thermite
Put bombs in the basement for top-down collapse,
Then told thousands of Jews, "keep this plan under wraps."
They publicly flaunted their secretive ways
With a twelve-hour power-down that lasted two days.
Then innocent terrorists hijacked planes (four times),
Showing us how the U.S. is guilty of war crimes.
Then bomb-laden holograms flew in their place
(By the FBI, to throw themselves off the case)
Toward four helpless targets that planes couldn't harm.
NORAD defenders stood down in alarm
Then shot down one plane and to Cleveland flew it
To fool all the networks, who already knew it.
The fire chief said "pull it" and pushed the towers down,
Into their own footprints, for blocks all around.
These pre-taped events were all shown on TV live
(Just like when O'Brien told Winston to see five!)
As part of an idiot's ingenious plan
To fight the Iraqis in Afghanistan.
But because I know nothing, they couldn't deceive me.
I only tell lies to prove you should believe me.

Did you know Moon Hoaxers think Michael Jacksons moonwalk was faked ?

reply to post by soulwaxer

But anyways... as far as fire fighters being trained in recognizing the components of the ultra-latest explosives technology in a never seen before destruction scene... I'm having my doubts.

"Ultra-latest" explosives technology? You mean the newest that only you know about? Maybe you could link to that instead. Cause see, not finding any evidence of something (firing train components) and then alluding to some other "mystery" evidence (unknown new firing train components) is like kind of, well... misleading?

Originally posted by soulwaxer
But anyways... as far as fire fighters being trained in recognizing the components of the ultra-latest explosives technology in a never seen before destruction scene... I'm having my doubts.

How does this combine with:

For people with eyes that see, it is obvious that the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 was controlled demolition.

A never seen before destruction scene, yet it is obvious that it was controlled demolition? On the basis that you have eyes and intuition?

To me this sounds contradicting. I am not the expert, but I think what you are displaying here is called cognitive dissonance.

Originally posted by soulwaxer
I'm having my doubts.

We haven't heard from you in a couple of days. Just wondering if you're feeling OK ?


How is it going with the "Official Truther Story" any progress ?

Originally posted by kidtwist

How is the OS movement going waypastvne? Still trying to convince the people you call 'truthers' about the TV fairy tale?!

Thank god you're here kid. The waxer seems to have dropped the ball, left the field, and is now hiding in his room.

What the dying Truth Movement needs to save it's worthless butt, is someone like you, to put all the Truther Facts together into a reasonable scenario,,,,,,,, that that doesn't make people giggle.

When we put Truther Facts together this is what we get.

Everyone will eventually know that al-Qaeda never existed, acted under the control of the US Government and acted on its own initiative but with the passive complicity of the US Government to hijack planes, not hijack planes and try but fail to hijack planes, that the US Government, a small rogue element within the US Government, and Mossad operating without the knowledge of the US Government crashed the planes into the towers under remote control, crashed different planes into the towers undeer remote control, didn't crash any planes into the towers but projected holograms of the planes crashing into the towers, and didn't crash or project anything but convinced everyone that planes hit the towers by showing it to them on TV, after which the towers were blown up by explosives that made lots of explosions that everybody heard, weakened by thermite silently which explains why nobody heard any explosions, blown up by nuclear weapons in the cellar which started collapses from the top, and turned entirely to dust by energy beams from space which is why there was no debris, and that the debris pile was then kept hot for months by thermite that hadn't reacted when it all reacted to bring the towers down, and all the steel that wasn't there was immediately taken to China which is why the steel recovered shows signs of explosives, melting and dustification, and a plane, a missile, a different plane and a hologram all crashed into the Pentagon except that it was only one of them, or pulled up at the last second and flew over the Pentagon, leaving a neat 12 foot hole that caused 90 feet of the bit of the wall that had recently been reinforced to collapse, and another plane was shot down at Shanksville then landed in Cleveland leaving no wreckage at Shanksville that was spread out over too large an area to be from a crash even though it didn't exist. That's what really happened, and some day everyone will figure out how obvious it all is.

The Truth Movement needs to present a logical "Official Truther Story". Until that happens the world will continue to mock you.

The fate of Truther World is resting in your hands, We know if there's anyone who can meet the challenge. It you...Super Truther.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by soulwaxer

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I don't feel bad and all depressed and 'stuff'. I'm actually feeling quite peaceful.

I would imagine that's because your views allow you to think of the world's problems as easily soluble.

Trust me, they're not.

Thanks for your thoughts. If you really are interested in my views, then read on.

No, I feel peaceful because I don't really see worldly problems in a conventional way. I see them as learning opportunities for the higher consciousness in all of us (the one that binds us all and is endless). I don't think this worldly experience, which is bound to space and time, and is temporary, is all there is to it. And I think that whatever happens happens. It is what it is. I have peace with that. I do not live in fear of the future. In fact, I believe that fear is the root cause of all worldly suffering.

I have been very close to death several times. One of those experiences involved a car accident where I was conscious for about 2 minutes while they were cutting the roof off of my car so they could get me out. Then I basically died and had to be reanimated. I wasn't conscious again until 3 days later. But I can tell you that those 2 minutes, where I was aware that I was in a terrible mess (my back was broken), were absolutely without worry. Another experience involved my stomach being punctured. I remained conscious while I was being rushed to the hospital for an emergency operation. I instinctively knew that I was physically dying. But the fear almost immediately gave way to the same peaceful feeling I had after the car accident.

This is the experience of the weight of 'worldly' life being lifted from your consciousness. It is a well known phenomenon and is explained thoroughly by the following scientific study published in The Lancet:
www.pimvanlommel.nl...

That pretty much explains why I feel peaceful. And when you feel peaceful, you have the added benefit that everything in life seems to have a way of working out. I'm sure many can attest to that fact.

Thanks, I found that genuinely interesting. But I have to take issue with it - it seems to me that your world view is exactly the one you're criticising: the idea that everything will be alright. You castigate debunkers for thinking this way, for avoiding suggestions that it won't, and then say that this is in fact exactly how you feel.

Personally I think it highly likely that everything won't work out. And I don't think that the world's problems will be solved when a tiny group of powerful men are brought to heel. I fail to see how that's unrealistically optimistic or a form of denial.

You're welcome, and thanks for posting on topic.

On the other hand... ;-) I have to take issue with your claims and reasoning. I am not criticizing the idea that everything will be alright. The belief in 19 terrorists getting past all of the US defenses (the other conspiracy theory), for me, doesn't equate to believing that everything will be alright. Just look at the endless wars that were started because of that belief.

And I don't think that anyone out there actually believes that we will ever 'get all the terrorists'. By the way, I never said anything about a 'tiny group of powerful men'. I think there were and are a large number of people involved, but most don't realize it. (I hope I don't need to further explain why that is possible.) That doesn't mean that they aren't helping a certain system along though. I will explain my reasoning for that in my next reply because I won't have enough characters left in this one.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade


...continued:

From the beginning, I looked at this systemically. I studied this subject from all angles and connected all the dots that were available, in order to get a basic understanding of how this whole scenario was able to play out the way it did. Especially the way the public's view was molded, again, mostly unwillingly. This is actually quite fascinating. Compare it to the whole financial system that is in such a mess. Your average banker around the corner is not an evil person trying to crash the economy. But his actions are definitely contributing to it. He may even realize this, but at the same time, he is being influenced by a certain culture that clouds his moral judgement. And in order to understand THAT, you need to study how he was educated and trained, and also who funded this education and training, and WHY? Then you may be able to see that this influence does not make one an evil person. As I've said several times already, I care about his situation, not in the least because I have been in it myself. The question is how one is able to deal with it. We all live on the same planet and in the same universe, and any choice any of us makes has an effect on the whole. In my view, we all share the same source, and therefore, in essence, we are all the same. We all make mistakes, that is how we learn and evolve, not only as individuals but also as a species.

When the effort of looking at this systemically is made, it becomes clear that everything that went on, and is still going on, fits my own views on 9/11 like a glove. When you turn it around, it doesn't make sense at all, not to me.

If that offends anyone out there, then I want them to know this is not my intention. Not that I didn't blame people in the past for not seeing it my way. But I'm not the type to linger in hate and ridicule, so I continued my study and eventually understood it, which freed me from the need to hate and ridicule. I don't even believe in good and evil anymore. I believe in what IS, without judging it, and for me that means accepting things as they present themselves, and knowing that in the end none of it will even matter. There are different perspectives from which to view our reality here on this planet. And because of my own views, I myself am not exactly inclined to think that everything will be alright either, in THIS time and place, or even in this dimension. But I'm not afraid of the future (hence my signature). In the meantime, I am doing what I can to make this life as authentic as possible. That is how I, and we as a species, evolve.

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by soulwaxer

I don't see how a fireman's opinion changes anything about what happened. I rely on what I see and am able accept it.

Your logic seems to be a little off, are you feeling OK?

It was you that googled this for the asparagus. Remember ? Are you having short term memory loss ?

Originally posted by soulwaxer

And just for you, I googled 'fire fighters for 911 truth' and........ presto!:

firefightersfor911truth.org...

Think hard. You wanted us to look at your fireman. We showed you our firemen. Do you see the logic now ?

I'm afraid you missed my point about the firemen. My only point was that not every fireman sees it the way 'your firemen' see it. And here's something else of importance in that: Even if only one man out of a million sees the truth, that doesn't mean it's not the truth. Do you see the logic in that?